Fatigue Rules--do decent attempts exist?

[Donnadogsoth]

I have yet to find an RPG that contains usable, reasonably realistic rules for fatigue. I put together a set of fatigue rules a few years ago, trying to model aerobic versus anaerobic fatigue, sleep loss, and how long a character could work and exercise in different ways, but this proved overly cumbersome and its use didn't outlast my temporary enthusiasm for it.

Fatigue rules seem inevitably cumbersome and adding little to the game. It's hard to track fatigue as there are so many ways a person can be tired, and each of those ways has its own recovery rate and method. Sleep loss versus anaerobic exertion, for example.

Have you come across, or come up with yourself, fatigue rules that would register getting tired in a fight, running/evading/pursuing, working, exercising, and being smacked around and suffering concussion damage as from explosives or spells?

[BWR]

Ars Magica has a simple system. Both damage and fatigue use the same system, a 7 stage affair that gives increasingly harsh penalties. Failing to cast a spell properly, a lot of harsh physical activity in a short amount of time, prolonged activity without rest: all these things will give you fatigue. You may also 'spend' a fatigue level to gain a bonus to a given roll. The amount of time you have to rest to refresh increases as you become more fatigued. For the first level of fatigue, a two minute breather is all you need, while you need two hours to wake up from an unconscious condition, another 1h32m to recover all your fatigue after that.
It's simple, it's very abstract but it works just fine if you a) aren't overly combat focused and b) don't mind simple rules in place of more realistic stuff

[Khedrac]

RuneQuest3's system was OK - total fatigue was the sum of Strength and Constitution (both 3d6).
Current fatigue started at Total fatigue less weight of carried gear (hmm, cannot remember the units, I don't think it was kg despite all the distances being metric).
Each round of combat you deducted 1 from current fatigue (there were some effects that could hit fatigue too, e.g. spells).
When fatigue went negative it was applied as a modifier to all skill rolls (percentage based system).

This led to everyone's first action in combat being to drop their pack...

Now I don't think the way of deriving the fatigue score that good, but the effect on combat is nice and progressive - keep it quick or you get tired.

Now as for your "different types of fatigue" - I don't know a system that models health in that detailed manner (bear in mind that D&D's hit points include fatigue) so I am certain that no one wants the hassle of tracking fatigue like that.

[hifidelity2]

RuneQuest3's system was OK - total fatigue was the sum of Strength and Constitution (both 3d6).
Current fatigue started at Total fatigue less weight of carried gear (hmm, cannot remember the units, I don't think it was kg despite all the distances being metric).
Each round of combat you deducted 1 from current fatigue (there were some effects that could hit fatigue too, e.g. spells).
When fatigue went negative it was applied as a modifier to all skill rolls (percentage based system).

This led to everyone's first action in combat being to drop their pack...
.

It also ended up that only Ducks could really wear the very heavy armour due to their small size

[nedz]

Like many things in RPGs you can create easy, simple and elegant rules; or you can create once which are realistic but, necessarily, complex; but not both.

It's a bit like Heisenberg's uncertainty principle - in fact the maths would probably look similar.

[Deaxsa]

I just tack on cumulative penalties to all base stats in whatever system I'm using to indicate increasing levels of physical and mental wear. Of course, this relies on a system that uses base statistics, and the frequency of these applications is going to be affected by how many steps the resource has (for example, a system where 6 is the max of any stat will see these penalties only after significant exertion, compared to the more frequent application of a system where the max is 18).

[TheCountAlucard]

No simulation can be as complex (and thus as accurate) as the reality that houses it.

Also, how does mechanizing aerobic vs. anaerobic fatigue look, in your head? In games I run, I'd just assign a -2 penalty and call it a day.

[Anonymouswizard]

In most cases, the more complex a system is, the harder it is to deal with. It's generally not worth keeping track of all the different ways you can become fatigued, just the same as it's generally not worth keeping track of all the different types of harm you can take (cuts versus burns versus bludgeoning...).

In general, the best ways to measure fatigue are:

• You have X fatigue points, and start taking penalties when you drop below Y (GURPS and Anima: Beyond Fantasy do this).
• You can have up to X levels of fatigue, that grant increasing penalties and take time to be lost (Ars Magica).
• You are a heroic individual, and thus do no need to record fatigue (probably the most common).

In general I'm not certain if I prefer the first or the third, I certainly prefer how the third makes the game easier to run and would probably just state 'fatigue drains hp' (I like to run games without easy access to magical healing, so this is a drawback).

[Velaryon]

While it isn't perfect, isn't terribly realistic, and is prone to abuse via a couple of specific builds, I'm pretty happy with Star Wars Saga Edition's condition track mechanics. If you just disallow a couple of abilities that combine to let you move enemies down three or four steps at a time, that solves the abuse issue.

[Thrudd]

Hit points in D&D model this in an abstract way. Being low on hp means your physical reserves are drained. Continuing to fight in this condition gives a good chance of death. Fatigue from other types of sustained physical exertion, lack of sleep, food and water could also be subtracted from HP totals. If you get into a fight after marching without sleep for two days and without eating, chances are you won't be at your best at will go down quickly to a strong opponent. High level characters with heroic levels of ability can pull this off, low level characters are like normal people: probably will be exhausted and in need of a rest after one or two combats lasting a few minutes each. Giving a penalty to attack on top of having low hp is probably overboard.

1e AD&D Wilderness Survival guide used -2 to all attack, damage and ability scores (including all featured granted by those ability scores) when fatigued (caused by various factors and after failing a saving throw). When more fatigue is incurred, a characted becomes exhausted and collapses, incapable of moving until they have rested for a period of time.

5e D&D has exhaustion levels that are incurred for failing to eat, drink and sleep and can be caused by spells and environmental effects. Incurring six exhaustion levels is death, earlier levels incur increasing penalties to rolls and movement. Exhaustion is removed by resting or eating and drinking (if it was caused by the lack thereof).

[Donnadogsoth]

Phoenix Command has already corrupted me against hit points for physical injuries, but I like the idea of using them for pure fatigue. I've already tried being as realistic as possible and it's overwhelming, but to me the area merits more than just a token treatment, so I'll dilute it a bit.

Categories of Fatigue:

Anaerobic – d6 per unit of fast, desperate work
Aerobic – d6 per unit of slow, rhythmic work
Sleep Loss – d6 per day
Drugs/Poison – d6 x Potency (1-10) per dose
Concussions – d6 x Intensity (1-10) per event
Exposure – d6 per day
Blood Loss – d6 x Severity (1-10) per injury
Thirst – d6 per quarter-day
Hunger – d6 per day
Disease - d6 x Virulence (1-10) per week

Stamina equals Motivation (3-18) X Fitness Skill (1-20) for a range of 3-360. This allows for weaklings and heroes and accounts for the effects of indomitable will (or melancholia) aside from combat training. Fatigue categories do not address their physical health effects. A drug for instance might not completely exhaust a character, while still killing him; also the drug's effects wear off after a certain time independent of the character's Stamina replenishment.

Stamina is replenished at a rate of Health (3-18) per 8 hours of rest, prorated.

Example: Steeltoes (Health 10, Motivation 17, Fitness 4) has a Stamina of 68. He goes and gets drunk (d6 X 3) gets thrown out of the saloon (d6), falls off his horse (d6), and ends up blundering into the desert where he is lost for four days thirsty (16d6) and hungry (4d6) and exposed (4d6). His Stamina loss equals 9 + 3 + 4 + 56 + 14 + 14 – 40 (Health 10 X 4) – 9 (sobering up) = 70. He collapses in the desert and only luck, destiny, or providence can save him now.

[Knaight]

There's fatigue qua fatigue, and then there's the whole host of ways people can be at less than their best, all of which are somewhat similar. For the first, GURPS is okay (albeit attached to the rest of the system), and most things do nothing. For the second, take a look at Torchbearer and Mouseguard.

[Lvl 2 Expert]

As long as there is a single constitution stat it doesn't really pay to track different kinds of fatigue. So we're talking about tracking a dozen bases stats here just for the purpose of getting worn out, which you might recognize as one of the less fun parts of heroism we try to mostly gloss over except where dramatically appropriate. And if you do fatigue this detailed, you really should add more options for injuries as well. And you should split up the other base stats. You can't model movement realistically with just strength and dexterity and a handful of skills. When jumping you need relative leg strength compared to body weight, which is very different from the strength in the smaller guiding muscles of the arm which you need for a precise punch.

In short: I don't think it'd be a lot of fun to play with a system that detailed (thinking it up could be fun though, I just wouldn't be planning to use it personally).

[Donnadogsoth]

As long as there is a single constitution stat it doesn't really pay to track different kinds of fatigue. So we're talking about tracking a dozen bases stats here just for the purpose of getting worn out, which you might recognize as one of the less fun parts of heroism we try to mostly gloss over except where dramatically appropriate. And if you do fatigue this detailed, you really should add more options for injuries as well. And you should split up the other base stats. You can't model movement realistically with just strength and dexterity and a handful of skills. When jumping you need relative leg strength compared to body weight, which is very different from the strength in the smaller guiding muscles of the arm which you need for a precise punch.

In short: I don't think it'd be a lot of fun to play with a system that detailed (thinking it up could be fun though, I just wouldn't be planning to use it personally).

The Jumping skill can be modified by weight, including encumbrance. I've never made rules for that but it's not hard to imagine. Climbing, Fall Recovery, Running, and Sprinting are all separate skills in my game. They reflect not just accuracy but muscle conditioning. The hardest to model I've found is Running, as excess body weight becomes a more of a disadvantage the longer the race is. But I guess everything's complicated if we dig. Are there any general body movement skills I'm missing, viz., besides combat or technical skills?

[Straybow]

So, why don't boxers just step up to each other and trade blows until one goes down? Because they have to manage fatigue. Look at how fast MMAers hit the fatigue barrier when the grapple/BJJ starts. The minute of rest between rounds lets them catch their breath. Basically, anaerobic fatigue gets converted to aerobic fatigue, and the two kinds have different kinds of effects.

It's hard to make a good mechanism that isn't a pain in the buttocks.

[Donnadogsoth]

So, why don't boxers just step up to each other and trade blows until one goes down? Because they have to manage fatigue. Look at how fast MMAers hit the fatigue barrier when the grapple/BJJ starts. The minute of rest between rounds lets them catch their breath. Basically, anaerobic fatigue gets converted to aerobic fatigue, and the two kinds have different kinds of effects.

It's hard to make a good mechanism that isn't a pain in the buttocks.

It's also hard to simulate limb fatigue. A fighter might have a tired sword-arm from all that hacking, but his shield-arm might be fairly fresh. I would just assign levels, e.g., fresh/tired/fagged and adjudicate without rolls or numbers.

I think it's a good idea to be aware of these things and use the sub-system one chooses, to shape the plausible results.

[Khedrac]

Climbing, Fall Recovery, Running, and Sprinting are all separate skills in my game.

Just how many skills do you have/want in your game? The more you know about a given area, the easier it is for you to break that area down into multiple skills.
However, the corollary is that all areas should be broken down as much - and most of them you won't actually know much about.
For example, is the ability to identify species of plant (knowledge nature in 3E) split between fungi, flowering plants and 'other' plants (e.g. mosses, liverworts etc.)?
Or is Sword-fighting split between fencing/two-person duels, formation fighting, and disorganized melees?

The more skills you have the more skill point you have to give characters for there to be any point in giving them any skill points. People tend to know the basics of a very broad range of skills relating to their background (someone from one of the lost amazonian stone-age tribes would probably amaze you or I with just how much then know about their environment - they learned that while we learned science, computers, maths etc.)
Also the more detail you put into skills the less time you will spend playing the game and the more you will just spend doing the game's bookkeeping.

The first question to ask on this sort of exercise is "is there any benefit to having this increased level of modelling?"
The second is "do the benefits outweigh the drawbacks?"

One of the main things Pathfinder players usually say they like about Pathfinder was the consolidation of spot, listen and search skills into "perception" - a single skill. You seem to be going in the other direction, will it really add to the game or detract?

[Beleriphon]

I have yet to find an RPG that contains usable, reasonably realistic rules for fatigue. I put together a set of fatigue rules a few years ago, trying to model aerobic versus anaerobic fatigue, sleep loss, and how long a character could work and exercise in different ways, but this proved overly cumbersome and its use didn't outlast my temporary enthusiasm for it.

Fatigue rules seem inevitably cumbersome and adding little to the game. It's hard to track fatigue as there are so many ways a person can be tired, and each of those ways has its own recovery rate and method. Sleep loss versus anaerobic exertion, for example.

Have you come across, or come up with yourself, fatigue rules that would register getting tired in a fight, running/evading/pursuing, working, exercising, and being smacked around and suffering concussion damage as from explosives or spells?

The most straight forward is Star Wars Saga Edition with the condition track. The more fatigued a characters gets the worse off they do at all kinds of tasks. Its starts off with a -1 to a few things, and ends with a -10 to basically everything that involves dice and a few things that don't. The final step is unconsciousness.

[LibraryOgre]

Hackmaster has a Fatigue Factor, and as you adventure, it gets harder and harder to make those checks during a day. A low attack or defense roll might fatigue you, resulting in cumulative penalties until you get a chance to rest.

[Nifft]

It also ended up that only Ducks could really wear the very heavy armour due to their small size

I for one welcome our heavily-armored chivalrous waterfowl overlord.

One might even think of our taciturn yet downy protector as a Duck Knight.

[Donnadogsoth]

Just how many skills do you have/want in your game? The more you know about a given area, the easier it is for you to break that area down into multiple skills.
However, the corollary is that all areas should be broken down as much - and most of them you won't actually know much about.
For example, is the ability to identify species of plant (knowledge nature in 3E) split between fungi, flowering plants and 'other' plants (e.g. mosses, liverworts etc.)?
Or is Sword-fighting split between fencing/two-person duels, formation fighting, and disorganized melees?

The more skills you have the more skill point you have to give characters for there to be any point in giving them any skill points. People tend to know the basics of a very broad range of skills relating to their background (someone from one of the lost amazonian stone-age tribes would probably amaze you or I with just how much then know about their environment - they learned that while we learned science, computers, maths etc.)
Also the more detail you put into skills the less time you will spend playing the game and the more you will just spend doing the game's bookkeeping.

The first question to ask on this sort of exercise is "is there any benefit to having this increased level of modelling?"
The second is "do the benefits outweigh the drawbacks?"

One of the main things Pathfinder players usually say they like about Pathfinder was the consolidation of spot, listen and search skills into "perception" - a single skill. You seem to be going in the other direction, will it really add to the game or detract?

I've got two or three-score skills in my game. Anything from Cheops (Dreamlands Chess) to Mosaic Making to Spitting. Most of the skills I've labelled "outlandish skills" that the PC's have no idea about. New skills occur to me from time to time--like Lindybeige's agreeable suggestion that Skirmishing should be a skill distinct from Swordplay. Part of the fun of the game is the players' introduction to these newfangled skills.

I think fatigue calls out with moderate volume for rules. It doesn't need the sort of attention that gets paid to combat (most games have entire chapters devoted to "combat" in my experience), but it's important enough in genre media products and in real life for me to think it merits attention. Especially in a high-lethality system like Phoenix Command it strikes me as apposite to have a "hit point"-like system for the players to monitor and nurse, rather than just moping about their gruesome 300-point wound.

[Jay R]

Hero Games (Champions, Fantasy Hero, etc.) treats Stun, Endurance and Body as separate quantities. With a little practice it runs well. But basic arithmetic, including division, is necessary for character creation, so many people don't like it.

Chivalry and Sorcery had both Fatigue points and Hit Points. It was the most believable, accurate, consistent, reasonable, unplayable mess I've ever seen.

[Douche]

I think it's hilarious how in D&D 5e, walking 9 hours instead of 8 in one day can cause you to have disadvantage on all ability checks. Like, you could be a professional long distance runner or something, and because you fail one Con save because you wanted to walk for an extra hour, you are unable to remember history now or something.

It's such a clunky system. I also dislike how you can only walk for 8 hours, and then have to rest for 8. It leads to you having some seriously messed up sleep schedule if you think about it. Assuming you're doing long distance travel without any encounters - first day you go to sleep at Midnight, wake up at 8 am, go to sleep at 4 pm, wake up at midnight, go to sleep at 8 am, wake up at 4 pm... Like what the hell? Who does that?

[Jay R]

I think it's hilarious how in D&D 5e, walking 9 hours instead of 8 in one day can cause you to have disadvantage on all ability checks. Like, you could be a professional long distance runner or something, and because you fail one Con save because you wanted to walk for an extra hour, you are unable to remember history now or something.

Agreed, mostly, it's overdone, but not a bad as you're painting it.

It's such a clunky system. I also dislike how you can only walk for 8 hours, and then have to rest for 8. It leads to you having some seriously messed up sleep schedule if you think about it. Assuming you're doing long distance travel without any encounters - first day you go to sleep at Midnight, wake up at 8 am, go to sleep at 4 pm, wake up at midnight, go to sleep at 8 am, wake up at 4 pm... Like what the hell? Who does that?

Nobody does that, including the D&D characters you're talking about.

They are also picking a good campsite, setting up camp, eating, cooking, replenishing water, hunting for food, cleaning up, washing themselves and their clothes, memorizing spells, making plans, repairing equipment, mending clothes after thorns, washing clothes, etc.

I've spent time hiking through the wilderness. An eight hour maximum over the long term or minor losses in endurance, dexterity, and cognitive function is not completely unreasonable. If I were trying to write a more realistic rule, I'd allow one 12+ hour day, but not two in a row without it affecting you. I'd allow maybe 4-6 days of 10 hours before it started affecting you, and no more than 8 for more than a week. I'd then modify it by CON, and maybe by survival skill.

Then I'd refuse to play it, because it's too complicated.

[Donnadogsoth]

I think it's hilarious how in D&D 5e, walking 9 hours instead of 8 in one day can cause you to have disadvantage on all ability checks. Like, you could be a professional long distance runner or something, and because you fail one Con save because you wanted to walk for an extra hour, you are unable to remember history now or something.

It's such a clunky system. I also dislike how you can only walk for 8 hours, and then have to rest for 8. It leads to you having some seriously messed up sleep schedule if you think about it. Assuming you're doing long distance travel without any encounters - first day you go to sleep at Midnight, wake up at 8 am, go to sleep at 4 pm, wake up at midnight, go to sleep at 8 am, wake up at 4 pm... Like what the hell? Who does that?

I think this is why GM > Rules. The rules are a metaphor for the action; if they're taken too seriously we get people "gaming the system" instead of playing the game.