Mounted combat in RPGs, momentum

[shadow_archmagi]

So, awhile back, I was in a game where a player got a band of knights, and something persistently bugged me, which was that the overlapping blind spots of "Each turn happens as a distinct event, so only starting and ending positions matter" and "Momentum doesn't exist" meant that he could pull off very unrealistic manuevers, like having fifteen horsemen charge a target with lances and end up neatly distributed around it. (Where in the real world, I'm pretty sure that your goal with mounted polearm combat is to let go of the lance after it pokes them and ride away so as not to be catastrophically unhorsed.)

I just have no idea how I'd write RPG rules for momentum and the awkwardness of mass cavalry charges without making my players look at horses and think "This is worse than grappling." So I thought I'd check and see if there was like, Mount and Blade The Tabletop that already existed and had sleek, elegant rules for knights.

[dps]

So, awhile back, I was in a game where a player got a band of knights, and something persistently bugged me, which was that the overlapping blind spots of "Each turn happens as a distinct event, so only starting and ending positions matter" and "Momentum doesn't exist" meant that he could pull off very unrealistic manuevers, like having fifteen horsemen charge a target with lances and end up neatly distributed around it. (Where in the real world, I'm pretty sure that your goal with mounted polearm combat is to let go of the lance after it pokes them and ride away so as not to be catastrophically unhorsed.)

I just have no idea how I'd write RPG rules for momentum and the awkwardness of mass cavalry charges without making my players look at horses and think "This is worse than grappling." So I thought I'd check and see if there was like, Mount and Blade The Tabletop that already existed and had sleek, elegant rules for knights.

If you want realistic tactical combat in a tabletop game, , you're going to have mechanically complex rules, even without bringing mounts into it. I don't think that there's anyway around that.

[Ikitavi]

I honestly can't think of any turn based game that does momentum well. As a starting point, look into racing games for ideas, maybe? I agree it is a problem, but an accurate system is likely to make the grappling rules look easy to use.

[Knaight]

I can't think of any ground mount rules that do this. I can think of numerous vehicle rules that do, and that might be a decent starting point. The sort of rules made for motorcycle combat could work for horses, you just need to drastically change quantities like speed. That might be worth looking into.

There are also games that are abstracted out more, instead of doing tactical grid stuff, and at that more abstract level where you don't have to track momentum you can still get the idea of unwieldiness across. Although, there have been cases where lances were used in a more skirmish like situation, and while surrounding one person super neatly isn't happening, it's not happening in a foot fight very easily either.

[paddyfool]

About all you can do is incentivise mounted dudes to keep moving, eg offer them bonuses contingent on having moved in the turn. (The damage multiplier from lances when charging in 3.5 being one example of an incentive of this kind; bonuses to being able to move past opponents unobstructed, especially opponents they've hit on a charge, would also make sense and be fun IMHO). That will tend to incentivise a broadly thematically appropriate behaviour of charging all over the battlefield rather than sitting still. (Especially if you avoid giving them bonuses for sitting still, eg 3.5's iterative attacks).

EDIT: Rigidly modelling momentum would be a pain, however.

[Takewo]

If it's charge, a very easy rule is that it needs be a straight line. With this, it is impossible that a group of mounted knights can surround a single guy when they charge.

That said, I would also add that, if they aren't charging, it's not a problem. One of the benefits that cavalry brought was manoeuvrability. Horses as well as knights were specially trained to do this. I've seen single combats of a mounted guy against a guy on foot and the guy on the horse had an awful lot of manoeuvrability that the other guy could not pull. Horses, when they are not running, can move very decently around a target, and other than a charge, I'm not sure that you'd want your horse to be running about.

[Chauncymancer]

Have you tried modeling a horse as a flying creature that just happens to be on the ground? Probably the best bet for a 3.P paradigm.

[paddyfool]

@The OP,

Incidentally, having 15 riders charge a single (very high priority) opponent could realistically work, if they charged in two columns doing ride-by lancing/other melee attacks, peeling off to each side after they struck. Assuming there were no other targets in the way for the initial riders to take care of, that is.

[shadow_archmagi]

@The OP,

Incidentally, having 15 riders charge a single (very high priority) opponent could realistically work, if they charged in two columns doing ride-by lancing/other melee attacks, peeling off to each side after they struck. Assuming there were no other targets in the way for the initial riders to take care of, that is.

That would be the ideal. However, that's a radically different tactical move than "Draw straight lines from each rider to the enemy such that all 15 of them are in reach"

[Mordar]

I can't think of any ground mount rules that do this. I can think of numerous vehicle rules that do, and that might be a decent starting point. The sort of rules made for motorcycle combat could work for horses, you just need to drastically change quantities like speed. That might be worth looking into.

There are also games that are abstracted out more, instead of doing tactical grid stuff, and at that more abstract level where you don't have to track momentum you can still get the idea of unwieldiness across. Although, there have been cases where lances were used in a more skirmish like situation, and while surrounding one person super neatly isn't happening, it's not happening in a foot fight very easily either.

The first thing I thought to suggest was Car Wars. Things like Man-of-War and Star Fleet Battles (I think?) used turning templates to speak to how much things can turn/re-orient in a given "turn" of time. I think something like that could easily be adapted...and not add too much complexity. Totally off the cuff:

• Move 15 squares: Allowed 1 45' turn;
• Move 10-14 squares: Allowed up to 2 45' turns;
• Move 1-9 squares: Allowed up to 3 45' turns

This could then be modified by making Handle Animal/Ride rolls to increase the turn angle, for instance, or add more turns. Again, just winging it and putting numbers on the movement without a real sense of what a "charge" is for a horse. Basically was thinking something like top speed (full charge hit and damage bonus) vs. moderate speed (maybe half charge hit/damage bonuses if appropriate) vs. walk speed (no charge bonuses).

- M