The LA-assignment thread

[Zaydos]

Keen Senses, Blindsense, Flight, and +HD-1 AC is actually a bigger thing than casting for Dragon v Barbarian, and for Red Dragon I'd take the damage hit (~50% on a single attack, less on a full attack) compared to a Core Barbarian for +8 AC over a Core Barbarian (+4 over a fighter, note this changes things from ~60% of attacks will hit me to ~20% of attacks will hit me, making it rather meaningful), flight (at 7th level when Barbarian starts having trouble actually doing their job due to flight being needed), Blindsense, and being the best scout in the game without needing to go ahead of the party and risk death (and with the 150 ft speed to regroup if I do go ahead).

Once you get out of core barbarian gets better (Whirling Frenzy, Pounce, Charger build), but also gets stuck in a single trick (charger build) which is the single easiest trick to be screwed out of ('oh look you need to make a DC 10 balance check to charge because 90% of terrain says you do' 'oh look the bushes are difficult terrain' 'oh look the enemy is flying' BUT KRAG KAN FLY!!! 'Can is spelled with a C and Good maneuverability halves your speed when ascending so you can't charge upwards'), at the same time dragons can pick up a lot of new tricks too such as mouthpick weapons (which negates Barbarian's biggest advantage), a dragon with a mouthpick greatsword is now dealing 3 less damage per hit (difference between +1 and +2 damage with PA) than the barbarian, and in exchange deals more damage on a full attack, and has a slew of advantages. Level up to 10th and the dragon is large, has reach with its bite attack (which is replaced with a greatsword or spiked chain), 3 more AC, and 4 more Strength meaning they now just flat outdamage the barbarian. Oh and you know the +5 to Will and +3 to Reflex over Whirling Frenzied Barbarian does in fact help rather a large bit (more the former than the latter).

That said Crusader flat outclasses both in combat. Factotum outclasses the dragon as a skill monkey hard, though the dragon does edge out as a scout. Dread Necromancer and Beguiler are just better. And that's without getting into the Tier 1-2s (though DN and Beguiler in my experience out class everyone but the tier 1s, Sorcerers, and maybe Psions). So I'd say +0 LA is pretty good assuming you're comparing to ToB and casters and not... Barbarians and Fighters. So I'd say +0 stands pretty well. If you're comparing to low power game and Barbarians and Fighters as baseline +1 LA is probably necessary. Even then +4 is absurd (at that point you just take Draconic Cohort and get a stronger Dragon than the Dragon PC and then they cry).

Out of the core dragons the only ones I'd be at all worried about dropping LA entirely from are maybe White (burrow, flight, blindsense at Lv 3), definitely Brass (flight, blindsense, decent mental scores, 1 or 2/encounter AoE save or lose at Lv 4), and maybe silver (1 or 2/encounter better Save or Lose but Lv 7).

Oh and if I was actually running an all dragon game, because at +0 LA some are much better than others.

[ImperatorV]

Because everyone knows that a SLA every few HD and some added strength bonuses can and will never make these into something worth the LA. I'm sorry, Smaug/Veritas fans, but reds are every single problem that plagues dragons, turned up to eleven.

...I love you for this reference.

[Fizban]

Even if the DM enforces it, it's far from the most important thing for most characters to spend skill points on. After all, the challenges it solves are inconsequential compared to most encountered during the adventure itself.

If you're being charged appraisal fees it's not solving a challenge, it's saving you money. Who doesn't want more money?

[RedWarlock]

This may be a problem with other monsters (and if so, please say which ones), but dragons are actually pretty simple in that regard. They don't get sorcerer casting until around level 15, and by then the ton of HD they have outweighs what minor benefits a few 1st-level spells may get them.

Oh, yeah, no, not arguing about the dragons specifically (though on that aspect, using DFA numbers for breath weapons on top of barbarian numbers for damage does hit a bit of what I was talking about, since a DFA/barb multiclass would be a bit higher), more just finally putting voice to a complaint forming in my head about the thread in general. More on the demons and devils than anything, but something to consider.

There's also relative out-of-the-gate-ness of racial qualities contrasted versus optimized-built classes with level-appropriate gear. Where does a high-end demon rate in effectiveness when it's being built *properly*, with good selections of feats and gear appropriate to it's hypothetical WBL? Is the damage of a red wyrmling with 3 levels of rogue (and appropriate gear for a 10th level character) hitting and dealing appropriate damage when contrasted with a 10th level rogue?

It may not affect your evaluations much, but I feel like the combination vector is one that's being ignored. These monsters don't just count as any one factor, they count as all of those factors combined into one character.

[Inevitability]

...I love you for this reference.

I love you for getting this reference.

If you're being charged appraisal fees it's not solving a challenge, it's saving you money. Who doesn't want more money?

Appraisal's value or lack thereof notwithstanding: this is a thread about LA's. If a given feature doesn't impact LA (and I doubt a single class skill does), I suggest all discussion thereof is either ended or moved to another thread.

Oh, yeah, no, not arguing about the dragons specifically (though on that aspect, using DFA numbers for breath weapons on top of barbarian numbers for damage does hit a bit of what I was talking about, since a DFA/barb multiclass would be a bit higher), more just finally putting voice to a complaint forming in my head about the thread in general. More on the demons and devils than anything, but something to consider.

There's also relative out-of-the-gate-ness of racial qualities contrasted versus optimized-built classes with level-appropriate gear. Where does a high-end demon rate in effectiveness when it's being built *properly*, with good selections of feats and gear appropriate to it's hypothetical WBL? Is the damage of a red wyrmling with 3 levels of rogue (and appropriate gear for a 10th level character) hitting and dealing appropriate damage when contrasted with a 10th level rogue?

It may not affect your evaluations much, but I feel like the combination vector is one that's being ignored. These monsters don't just count as any one factor, they count as all of those factors combined into one character.

Fair point on the DFA/Barbarian thing. However, in my experience a dragon player will either focus on melee (in which case a barbarian outperforms them) or breath weapons (in which case a DFA outperforms them). As is always the case in D&D, spreading yourself extensively is a bad idea.

I'm definitely considering monsters PC's after taking a few class levels, but fact is that most often, more levels don't improve a monster. The reason for this is simple: cleric 15 (or factotum 15, or rogue 15) gives you more than cleric/rogue/factotum 1. Only with casting monsters is this not the case, and one does see a number of higher LA's there (well, except dragons).

[Inevitability]

Dragon, White

At the bottom of the draconic order there's the whites, starting out at CR 2 and 3 RHD. Paradoxially, this makes them one of the most attractive PC's.

Breath weapon is a cone of cold, skills are Swim (somewhat useful) as well as Hide and Move Silently (especially good on the Tiny wyrmling). In addition, white dragons gain fly, burrow and swim speeds, with all very high.

Wyrmling

Going to echo the playground here and say these are (finally!) worth +1 LA. Ability-wise, things aren't that interesting, but the speed and general true dragon shenanigans are definitely worth the slight loss in damage compared to a regular rogue type.

Very Young

These are basically blue wyrmlings with better mobility but worse mental stats, AC and damage. -0 LA again.

Young

Another easy blue dragon comparison, another clear loss. -0 LA.

Beyond Young

White dragons gain new abilities at an even slower pace than other dragons (though I must admit Freezing Fog is a nice control ability), so it should be obvious that more HD don't warrant a higher LA.

With this, the chromatics are done (woo-hoo), and I'll soon be moving on to metallic dragons.

[Inevitability]

Dragon, Brass

After the weakest chromatic dragon, here's the weakest metallic! Brass dragons have the fire subtype, which is a net gain in power. Their breath weapons are a line of fire (bad) and a cone of sleep (quite nice). Skills are Bluff, Gather Information, and Survival.

Wyrmling

The 1 HD these have over white wyrmlings gives them better mental stats and an extra point of AC. Their main breath weapon is arguably worse than the white's, but the sleep breath definitely outperforms both. Icewalking is swapped out for Speak With Animals at-will, and the white dragon's swim speed is dropped. Also of are Hide and Move Silently, which Brass dragons don't have as class skills.

To me it seems like the abilities lost and gained are nicely balanced out by the extra HD. +1 LA is necessary, but nothing beyond that.

Very Young

We shall now return to our regularly scheduled chain of -0 LA's.

Young

If a 10th-level ability amounts to 'you are medium now', and if you are glad to have it... why the hell weren't you medium to begin with? -0 LA.

Stuff

Brass dragons gain abilities at too slow a pace: nothing new there, so -0 LA for all others shouldn't bear explaining. However, one interesting thing I feel like pointing out: the Summon Djinni ability of a great wyrm brass dragon doesn't actually have an usage limit, so they can have a permanent army of 600 djinni flying around and creating stuff. It's not too relevant at those levels, but it does allow for the creation of 25 cubic feet of wine a round: maybe spend your outperformed epic leveled days in endless wine-gorging?

[Inevitability]

Dragon, Bronze

Really, the only question to ask by this point is: 'what LA will the wyrmling get?'. To think I expected something of dragons.

Anyway, time for bronze dragons. Their breath weapons are a line of lightning and a cone of repulsion gas (the latter of which is actually a pretty cool save-or-suck). Skills are Disguise, Swim and Survival: three skills that are needed only sometimes, but pretty useful when they are.

Wyrmling

Compared to the blue dragon, bronzes come out on top overall, though not enough to warrant a LA. Also: what is the deal with metallic dragons getting Speak With Animals?

Very Young

Fun fact: dragons never get anything interesting at their first age increase. -0 LA.

Young

Alternate Form is even more useless on dragons than it'd be on other ECL 12 characters: basically any ability possessed by the allowed forms a young bronze dragon already possesses by nature.

Here be more age categories

Greetings, traveler from the distant future. I placed this message here on 27-11-2017, knowing nobody would find it because nobody would ever look at a random dragon's level adjustment justifications. If you do find it though, feel free to inform me!

Spoiler: Travelers from the distant future

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Also, in case you were actually looking for my justification for those LA's: big dragon has big RHD, big RHD no good, -0 LA everywhere.

[Flickerdart]

The saddest thing about dragons is how much easier it is to just play a different character, get a CR-appropriate dragon buddy, and then sit at home while the dragon wins for you. Even with the reduced LAs.

[GreatWyrmGold]

If you're being charged appraisal fees it's not solving a challenge, it's saving you money. Who doesn't want more money?

1. I've never had a DM charge me appraisal fees.
2. Even if they did, the fees aren't going to be much. It won't be nothing, but it won't be consequential.

The saddest thing about dragons is how much easier it is to just play a different character, get a CR-appropriate dragon buddy, and then sit at home while the dragon wins for you. Even with the reduced LAs.

Do you have a specific method in mind? I'd probably go for "ride the dragon buddy into combat" or something along those lines, but I figure that most methods which work for one would work for the other.

[Inevitability]

Dragon, Copper

Breath weapons are a line of acid and a cone of Slowing gas. It's not bad, but when most other metallic dragons have save-or-lose breath weapons it's a bit underwhelming. Skills are Bluff (Still useful), Hide (Why no Move Silently? At least the wyrmling is tiny), and Jump (Why. Did. People. Think. Dragons. Needed. This).

Wyrmling

A small bonus to all stats except strength and dexterity, Tiny size, a crappy breath weapon, a slightly less crappy breath weapon, immunity to a relatively uncommon damage type, and (wait for it...) Spider Climb. Not actual Spider Climb, because that's obviously far too strong on a flying ECL 5 creature, but a version that only works on stony surfaces. The -0 LA is strong in this one.

Very Young

Tiny ---> Small size. +2 strength. 2d4 extra damage on the acid breath weapon (you know, the one you won't use). +2 effective AC. I'm not sure I'd take this if a single dragon HD came with it: let alone three. -0 LA.

Young

No medium size until the second half of one's adventuring career? Check.
A breath weapon outdamaged by Fiery Burst? Check.
Horribly late sorcerer casting? Check.
-0 LA? Check.

And so on...

THERE ARE NO AGE CATEGORIES BEYOND THIS POINT, GOOD CITIZEN. PLEASE CONTINUE YOUR BROWSING.
Two more... I can do this... I can do this...

[Zaydos]

Jump (Why. Did. People. Think. Dragons. Needed. This).

Grandfathered in from 2e where some dragons had Jump speeds. To my knowledge they were the only things with jump speeds except maybe some printings of thri-kreen. In theory they gave them some pretty good movement where they couldn't fly do to maneuverability limitations I guess but they seemed pretty pointless then too.

[Inevitability]

Dragon, Gold

The horribleness of dragons notwithstanding, the Gold's picture is actually pretty funny. Remember, kids: being large doesn't penalize your Move Silently!

Breath weapons are a cone of fire (definitely not outperformed by spells) and a cone of gas that deals a few points of strength damage. I take back all the back things I said about the Copper Dragon's breath: this one takes the cake when it comes to underwhelming attacks.

Wyrmling

The only interesting thing I'm seeing here is the Alternate Form, and that's done better by a Master of Many Forms. Also, the MoMF isn't stripping away all their other class features when they shapeshift. -0 LA.

Very Young

I think a LA of -(32146⁰-1) is most fitting here.

Young

Still nothing interesting.

Eag Scategorie!

I admit that Golds do get some flavorful abilities (creating Luckstones, detecting gems), but by the time they're attainable one could create Luckstones by the dozen or create an epic spell that gives you the location, type and value of every gem within a few hundred miles.

[Zaydos]

So now all that's left is Silver. In the pros it has paralysis breath, in the cons it is 7 hit dice. Paralysis breath is a bit better than Sleep breath, and compared to a very young brass dragon it does gain +4 to all mental stats so it's definitely better than Very Young Brass, still it's 7 HD.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Remember, kids: being large doesn't penalize your Move Silently!

Trust me, it makes a great party trick. If the party in question is in a large enough open space and doesn't have too many people.

I take back all the back things I said about the Copper Dragon's breath: this one takes the cake when it comes to underwhelming attacks.

It could be worse. It could be red dragons' secondary breath weapon. Because they don't have any!
...
Oh be quiet.

[Efrate]

The one things jump as a class skill might do barring leap attack is enable tiger claw manuevers, I don't think natural attack is a favored weapon type though, think just unarmed strike. RHD counting as half initiator level might make some of these suck less, but it is a bit of a reach.

[Zaydos]

The one things jump as a class skill might do barring leap attack is enable tiger claw manuevers, I don't think natural attack is a favored weapon type though, think just unarmed strike. RHD counting as half initiator level might make some of these suck less, but it is a bit of a reach.

Claw is for Tiger Claw, I forget if Bite is as well (not that it matters much as very little cares if it is a favored weapon type or not).

[Inevitability]

The one things jump as a class skill might do barring leap attack is enable tiger claw manuevers, I don't think natural attack is a favored weapon type though, think just unarmed strike. RHD counting as half initiator level might make some of these suck less, but it is a bit of a reach.

Both Leap Attack and Tiger Claw require you to be in melee.

Copper dragons, however, are tiny. At that size there's basically two competent melee builds: the precision damage flurry'er, and the 'load up on everything that gives bonuses against big folk'. The first is hard because it requires spending levels on rogue/scout, which doesn't work well with dragon RHD; the second is hard because most material that gives bonuses against larger creatures isn't meant for dragons.

[Inevitability]

Dragon, Silver

Yea, even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of suboptimal dragons, I fear no underpoweredness, for I am almost friggin' done!

Silver dragons. Breath Weapon #1: Cone of Cold (don't bother). Breath Weapon #2: Paralyzing gas (very nice). Skills: Bluff (good), Disguise (okay) and Jump ().

Wyrmling

Compared to the Very Young Brass, these guys have two slightly better breath weapons, +4 to all mental stats, Alternate Form, worse speeds, better armor, a slightly worse subtype, and an additional immunity because why the hell not? Also, they can walk on clouds instead of chatting with critters. Let's throw them a bone and say the skills are about average.

Do silver wyrmlings need a LA? Being stronger than an equally-RHD'ed monster isn't necessarily a reason, as the imp and quasit show. I'm somewhat torn between +0 and +1, so just to be on the safe side (and because I want a change of pace), I'll put them at +1.

Very Young

Remember the bone I threw you? Give it back. -0 LA.

Young

I could analyze the ability boosts, armor bonuses, and caster level (note the singular) this age category nets you, or I could be happy for finally escaping dragon purgatory. Guess which option I'm picking? -0 LA.

25+

All the spell-likes older silver dragons get suck: don't play one. The end. FINALLY! FINALLY!

[GreatWyrmGold]

...most material that gives bonuses against larger creatures isn't meant for dragons.

I can't imagine why.

Spoiler

Show

Oh, right.

[Inevitability]

Dragon Turtle

"Dragon purgatory! I thought I had killed you!"
"You did... But I've returned now, more powerful than ever! Muwahahaha!"


That said, dragon turtles are significantly better than their non-cheloniiac brethren, if only because they have a balanced HD-threat ratio.

One bite attack and two claw attacks allow for a decent attack routine with a Mouthpick weapon, and full BAB, 27 strength and Huge size don't hurt there either. Breath Weapon is pretty good at wiping minions, and all metabreath feats apply to it. At worst, it's a 1/encounter 12d6 damage boost with Quicken Breath.

Capsize is a bit of an oddball ability, and its usefulness highly depends on how frequently ships will be faced. It's unlikely to affect LA either way though. Dragon Turtles also have immunity to Fire (neat), Sleep (meh) and Paralysis (semi-nice).

In the end, I'd say +1 LA fits. The subpar dragons may have made it hard to see, but dragon HD are very good when actually gotten with a decent melee creature. Dragon Turtles are very strong melee combatants, and a small LA shouldn't hurt too much.

[Inevitability]

Dragonne

I don't care that it technically isn't a dragon: I'm counting this as dragon purgatory's death throes.

Dragonnes have 9 magical beast HD. In exchange, they get good bonuses to all physical stats and suffer a slight loss (probably) regarding mental abilities. They're large, but lack reach. Speed is either above-average land or average flight.

Pounce is always good on a melee build, especially once that bite attack is swapped for a mouthpick weapon. The two claw attacks are less swanky, but they're better than nothing.

Finally, there's their Roar, which can fatigue or exhaust people unless they succeed on a Will save. On the one hand: exhaustion is a very strong debuff against melee people, but on the other hand the roar is extremely likely to affect your own party. Having to spend a standard action on it isn't the greatest thing either.

To me, Dragonnes seem to fit neatly as ECL 9 characters. There's no need for a positive LA.

[Daedroth]

Luckily for you, the only srd dragons left are the Wyvern and the Pseudodragon and both are at the end of the alphabet anyways. The closest dragon-like monster is the hydra (an interesting one, a truly feared polymorph form) so you are done with dragons for a long time.


I'm eager to see the next one, the Drider, a full caster critter and a wonderfull gish material, there's no way it would get LA+0.

[Flickerdart]

I'm eager to see the next one, the Drider, a full caster critter and a wonderfull gish material, there's no way it would get LA+0.

Having spellcasting equal to its HD is definitely a disqualifier. Even WotC understood this, since it's CR7. Even +1 is too low - SR, natural AC, better HD than any sorcerer or wizard could hope for, ability scores across the board...by the time this is not as good as being a spell level behind, the LA can be bought off.

[AMX]

Having spellcasting equal to its HD is definitely a disqualifier. .

Well, probably.
If everything else is no better than what a straight caster gets, that'd still be 0... but I don't expect that in this case.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, probably.
If everything else is no better than what a straight caster gets, that'd still be 0... but I don't expect that in this case.

I doubt there are any full-caster monsters who don't get more than turn undead or familiars or whatever class features a caster gets, plus the scattered skill and save bonuses a default race gives you. Unless that caster is a druid or something.

[AMX]

I doubt there are any full-caster monsters who don't get more than turn undead or familiars or whatever class features a caster gets, plus the scattered skill and save bonuses a default race gives you. Unless that caster is a druid or something.

Fair enough.
Maybe something with bad HD and no hands, but I can't think of a caster monster like that.

[Zaydos]

Fair enough.
Maybe something with bad HD and no hands, but I can't think of a caster monster like that.

Water Naga, 7 Aberration hit dice, 7th level sorc casting, no hands, large size sans reach, the other nagas lose casting compared to hit dice but not water naga. I mean it has Eschew Components as a bonus feat, +4 Cha, Con poison, a swim speed/water breathing but...

[Inevitability]

Drider

An interesting thing not many people remember is that in theory, every drow who reaches 6th-level may be tested by Lolth and immediately transformed into a drider upon failing. It's unlikely to come up in a typical campaign, but those fancy drow-only games everyone seems to be running now may see it occur.

Anyway: driders. 6 aberration HD, which are arguably equal to cleric HD (though with worse skills). This fits nicely with the 6th-level cleric/sorcerer/wizard casting they get: a feature that automatically forces them into LA territory. Cleric driders getting to pick from only four domains is a bit annoying, but not terribly so.

Driders are Large, but lack reach. They've got a single natural attack: a bite that deals piddly damage but injects strength-damaging poison. Their ability scores are quite high, with +4's and +6's across the board. Natural armor is pretty good as well, and a climb speed makes up for the lackluster land speed.

There's also some SLA's ranging from very situational (Detect Law?) to quite useful (Dispel Magic, Suggestion). SR and skill bonuses round it all off.

I'd say that a LA of +2 is, as many above me already noted, appropriate. Driders lose very little compared to full casters (which aren't exactly weak to begin with), and the goodies they get in addition balance out the lost spell level.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Random question...how is being turned into a giant, powerful spider monster with magical powers a punishment? At least turn them into giant spider monsters without unusual mental, physical, or magical prowess!