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  1. - Top - End - #211
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    It is not about how many times you need to teleport, it's about how many times you can, and what you can do with it.
    That's where you're wrong. You can use greater teleport 14400 times per day, but that's not what players care about - it's about how often the spell actually solves a (significant) challenge - does something XP-worthy, if you will. The party needs to teleport a couple of times a day at most (and probably not every day); only when there is time pressure. The rest of the time, travelling time is downtime, handwaved, not played out. The same goes for 'administrative' problems, like selling loot and moving supplies: better to relegate them to the background, be it a bag of holding or a teleporting hezrou with a steady buyer.

    Also remember this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    [...] unless everyone can teleport, you'll be limited to solving your own problems, not the party's.
    And if the party can all teleport, then it's all nicely balanced.
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    Read ExLibrisMortis' post...

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    Libris: look at your allowed sources. I don't think any of your options were from those.
    My incarnate/crusader. A self-healing crowd-control melee build (ECL 8).
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  2. - Top - End - #212
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    I think people are overrating Greater Teleport. The normal spell may be good, but this version is severely limited in its uses.

    You can warp to the BBEG's dungeon... but though you can go there yourself, no one can come along. Have fun fighting encounters meant for a party of four by yourself!

    You can bypass the hallway of traps or the locked door... but again, you're on your own. If anything dangerous is behind them, you don't have your party members backing you.

    You can travel to the other side of the continent to deliver a message... but Sending is already available and has the advantage of working across planar barriers.

    You can move around the battlefield with impunity... but so can any character with the right gear or spells, and they can probably do so as a move or swift action.

    You can flee a horde of monsters... and leave your party to die. I doubt this monster deserves increased LA for being good at fleeing.

    The point is that unless everyone can teleport, you'll be limited to solving your own problems, not the party's.
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    Khayal: A monster class worth playing


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  3. - Top - End - #213
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post

    And I honestly don't understand where you're seeing that when almost my entire focus was on the magic. Having powerful at-will spells has nothing to do with melee builds, the melee effects are only worth mentioning because even if we equate the Hezrou's abilities with a Warlock (and they are not equal) it still comes out ahead. Greater Teleport at-will, ultra-Quickened Stinking Cloud at-will, and +18 con are not "nice things," they're "omgwtf huge" things.

    To reiterate Troacctid's point, Outsider HD have full BAB, all high saves, and 8+int skill points, a combination unmatched by any actual class. I would spend 3-4 levels and my literal arms and legs to play a Lantern Archon, just for the Greater Teleport at-will. A Hezrou gains that, plus abilities that are easily worth 10 levels of a class with it's 10HD.
    If your logic held water, Warlock and DFA would be Tier 2 maybe even Tier 1 out of the box. They are not. Not by a long shot. At Wills are nice, but there not THAT powerful all on there own. And again, you can only teleport you, and you can bring very little extra gear and can't Melee attack the round you arrive. Meaning the utility is there and it's nice to have but several of the more powerful and useful applications for most games are off the table right at the get go.



    Yes, they have the saves, HD size with a decent Con Mod, speaking of Con Mod the physical and mental stat boosts and BAB, to actually function in Melee above level 5-6 with out relying entirely on some kind of magic or there gear. Skills give them the ability to not fall into the Fighter trap and only be able to hit things with a stick and that's the start middle and end of there options. They have a couple of special abilitys and immunity which overcome the problems of normal Melee/Skill Monkey classes and open them up to feats with out having to jump through major hoops or just be a mage of some kind in order to surmount, as well as save them enough gold that they might be able to keep up with things like the price of Magic weapons.

    Yes, it's worth 10 levels of a class, at 10th level. Meaning your on roughly on par with the Warblade, Swordsage, Factotum, Cursader, Psi-warrior, Incarent, Binder, Totemist, Beguiler, Bard, Dread Necromancer, Wild Shape or Mystic Ranger or Dragonfire Adept. Congrats, your more or less balanced.




    Particularly since your other At wills only serve to surmount the problem of lack of ranged options meaning you can focus more attention on bashing things safely, and not divide otherwise overly restricted resources trying to do both.






    Also, don't just look at total monsters. Look at the ones that get used a lot. Undead. Constructs. Outsiders. Dragons. Giants. You might be starting to notice a bit of a trend of Immunity or a very wonderful Fort Save that will far more often then not beat your Stink Aura thing.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ExLibrisMortis View Post
    That's where you're wrong. You can use greater teleport 14400 times per day, but that's not what players care about - it's about how often the spell actually solves a (significant) challenge - does something XP-worthy, if you will. The party needs to teleport a couple of times a day at most (and probably not every day); only when there is time pressure. The rest of the time, travelling time is downtime, handwaved, not played out. The same goes for 'administrative' problems, like selling loot and moving supplies: better to relegate them to the background, be it a bag of holding or a teleporting hezrou with a steady buyer.
    If you can't think of a way to turn instantaneous teleportation to anywhere into an advantage in any way other than "directly solves a challenge," then I can't help you. That's like saying the ability to craft an item or memorize a spell isn't a significant advantage because the action of preparation doesn't kill anything, like the fact that your friends can't cast the spells you've memorized makes them any less powerful. This is the sort of mentality that made WotC think blasting was still more powerful than save or lose.

    It's like the second you say "wizard" everyone assumes godlike power because magic+creativity=win, but if you say "not wizard" only the most banal logic applies and nothing could possibly be overpowered, even when that ability is something a wizard would gladly lose caster levels for. Happens a lot actually.
    Also remember this:And if the party can all teleport, then it's all nicely balanced.
    If anything, the more people who can teleport the more obvious it is that your at-will greater version is ridiculously better, as every teleport based plan they try has a limit that yours do not. See also, "Bro, do you even magic?" for the fact that a 5,000gp Bag of Holding is easily enough to transport party members one or two at a time. The only limit is that you can't teleport bomb the whole party in, but teleport bombs are the only situation where a limit on uses doesn't matter since your goal is to kill them in this one fight. But since that seems to be the extent of everyone's ideas, well I guess it's not overpowered
    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    If your logic held water, Warlock and DFA would be Tier 2 maybe even Tier 1 out of the box
    Warlock and DFA are specifically lacking in effects as powerful as the Hezrou's and that is why they are weaker, even before. . .
    Yes, they have the saves, HD size with a decent Con Mod, speaking of Con Mod the physical and mental stat boosts and BAB, to actually function in Melee above level 5-6 with out relying entirely on some kind of magic or there gear. Skills give them the ability to not fall into the Fighter trap and only be able to hit things with a stick and that's the start middle and end of there options. They have a couple of special abilitys and immunity which overcome the problems of normal Melee/Skill Monkey classes and open them up to feats with out having to jump through major hoops or just be a mage of some kind in order to surmount, as well as save them enough gold that they might be able to keep up with things like the price of Magic weapons.
    This entire paragraph detailing line by line how the Hezrou is better than the other classes. You are literally arguing that they are the same strength as other classes, because of all the advantages they have which make them better at their job than those classes.
    Yes, it's worth 10 levels of a class, at 10th level. Meaning your on roughly on par with the Warblade, Swordsage, Factotum, Cursader, Psi-warrior, Incarent, Binder, Totemist, Beguiler, Bard, Dread Necromancer, Wild Shape or Mystic Ranger or Dragonfire Adept. Congrats, your more or less balanced.
    Considering how those classes are all over the place in terms of balance, I am rather skeptical of your assertions. No martial adept can force a save or lose with a free action against a single target let alone multiple (and barely any of these can even try), no class in the game can greater teleport at-will period (Warlocks get Shadow Walk, a spell which is covered in restrictions, at 16th level), none of those classes has 8+int skills, and suggesting that incarnum can match this isn't even a good joke.
    Particularly since your other At wills only serve to surmount the problem of lack of ranged options meaning you can focus more attention on bashing things safely, and not divide otherwise overly restricted resources trying to do both.
    Yes, because instead of buying a bow a melee character should just be given free Eldritch Blast+Sickening Blast+"fireball blast" which doesn't even exist. Or instead of avoiding melee a Warlock should just be given the body of an intermediate demon.
    Also, don't just look at total monsters. Look at the ones that get used a lot. Undead. Constructs. Outsiders. Dragons. Giants. You might be starting to notice a bit of a trend of Immunity or a very wonderful Fort Save that will far more often then not beat your Stink Aura thing.
    Can I call this "Schrodinger's Monster?" The assumption that something is balanced just because some monsters are immune to it, especially because the monsters you personally prefer have said immunity, so it's not like that ability will ever really matter will it? Hezrou stench isn't that big of a deal for players to have, since as long as they fight other Hezrous it doesn't count?

    But hey, let's get detailed: Undead tend towards low hp and their threat is significantly reduced by your own ridiculous fort save even before magic items. Constructs are dumb and short range, will lose to teleport skirmishing if you have anything that can damage them, and you have DR. Dragons will have fun trying to chip at you through your wide spectrum energy resistance, high saves, and DR 10/a thing dragons don't have. So that leaves. . . Giants, who are also massively blunted by your DR.

    Gee, it's almost as if a creature with a massive set of defenses and powerful at-will abilities meant to force PCs to be prepared, has a massive set of defenses and powerful at-will abilities that the vast majority of monsters are completely unprepared to deal with. Seriously, someone upthread said that poison immunity is an obvious choice for monster gear. What? Since when? PC rarely use poison of any type and monsters have no reason to expect it from them, immunity is a standard goal for PCs (and a Hezrou PC gets it for free!). And you're ignoring the actual antagonists, the most obvious that you should have brought up from the start: Celestials and Inevitables. Those are the only things I see giving you serious trouble, and that's because Celestials are just straight up better than Fiends. Even then your combat stats compare favorably thanks to their deflated hit dice and your magic items. ECL 14 would match with Dire_Stirge's current Astral Deva, and the deva's magic is significantly lacking in teleport.

    +4 LA, and only if the rest of the party are playing builds that can actually match it. I also didn't jump on the Glabrezu earlier, but it should go up to at least +4 for similar reasons.
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  5. - Top - End - #215
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Fizban View Post
    no class in the game can greater teleport at-will period (Warlocks get Shadow Walk, a spell which is covered in restrictions, at 16th level)
    Actually, warlocks can get it as an epic invocation at level 21.

    ...That's all I have to add to that. Carry on.

  6. - Top - End - #216
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    In a (probably futile) attempt to stop the endless discussion of a single monster and start working on some new material, I'll raise the Hezrou LA to +3. I hope everyone can more-or-less see themselves playing this compromise.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I like it at +2 or +3. Would definitely be willing to play one at +2, would still consider playing one at +3.

  8. - Top - End - #218
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    +2 would be perfectly fine. +3 would be maybe maybe maybe workable. I don't personally think I'd ever even consider playing it except maybe in a Gestalt game at that LA. But I could see others maybe thinking about doing so.



    Fizban:

    1: I will be coming back to this point as part of the overall point.

    2:Not the logic you'd been claiming or that I responded to with that point.

    2: A fighter is better then a Complete Warrior Samurai. It's still a bad bad bad class, but it's better then a Complete Warrior Samurai. Or an NPC class. This doesn't make it good, or broken. A Warblade or Binder or Factotum or Wildshape Ranger are all better then a fighter by a long shot, and even more so then the Complete Warrior Samurai or NPC classes. And yet, shockingly, these things are not broken classes either. There good and playable, but by no means broken.

    Also, please, tell me more about how a Chassie all by it's own is automatically better then good solid well built class features and access to magical ability that are not a short list of specific SLA's that can't and don't change intrinsically in and of itself. Cause that's the argument your trying to sell.

    3: No, no those classes are NOT all over the place in terms of balance. Official listing puts them all in the same stones thrown of balance. Tier 3. Also known as "Generally the optimal balance point for the majority of groups and games that don't go out of there way to be otherwise." The only one's not listed are Mystic Ranger, Dragon Fire Adept, Totemist and Incarnate. All of which are considered in Tier 3 by general consensus in the optimization community. The only one of those four that's really argued is the Totemist, with some feeling it's a VERY high Tier 4 that borders on Tier 3. Incidentally, the only one on that list that get's possible Tier 2 Status is Binder with access to the Online Web Article Vestiges.

    So yeah, there all at the same range of balance, the overall optimal range for the vast majority of groups and games and play, Tier 3. And as was this class kept up with that. THAT'S SUPPOSE TO BE THE GOAL!!!!!!!!!!

    4: Fallacy. If you know how the game and WBL works you probably know why, so I will move on.

    5: Because obviously in a game called dungeons and dragons I am in an extreme minority of people who would fight dragons, and in a game were I can play an outsider I would be in the extreme minority of people whom would have it fight an outsider. :small annoyed:

    A significant majority of the Iconic Monsters and monster types, as well as the thematic ones, that see LOT'S of play over, and over, and over, and over again, will either be immune too it, have a stupidly high Fort save so that it's not a major problem for them the bulk of the time but does work every now and then, or have enough magic access backing them that having castings or potions of a spell to protect against the stink class feature will be no great hardship at all.




    Right, several of these points have lead me to the conclusion that honestly, you've allowed some manner of bias to color your judgement on this monster and possibly others of it's type, or, in particular in light of evidently not knowing how the Tier system works and what classes are were on it and seeming to feel that when you fix the problem by letting EVERYONE in the party have the relevant ability and just plan accordingly it has actually made the problem worse and demands one player be singled out and have there character be crippled in response, that you perhaps should consider some reassessment. Cause making that kind of argument or indicating you don't know how that system works does present you as either having a Bias, or not as firm a grasp on mechanics and optimization as you might feel you do. I'm leaning toward the personal Bias myself.





    LA +4, which you keep Advocating, is an automatic killing of a character race in terms of being used for a PC race. I can literally count the exceptions on one hand and have fingers, plural, left over. It can kinda be made to work in Gestalt but failing that, nothing doing. LA 3 is devastating and the much more powerful form a PC stand point Lantern Archon is sitting good there. Again, the MORE powerful race form a PC stand point overall. That's the one that's balanced at LA 3.

    LA +4 is a death sentence. It's making sure the race either won't see play, or won't get to do anything worth while in it's career cause it will be too badly crippled. The LA it does have now, that's likely gonna mean rarely used and only with extenuating circumstances if ever.

    So I gotta think either you really don't realize this, or you really just hate either this monster or this monster type enough that you either don't care or do and want that to happen to them. And I certainly don't, I WANT monsters to be as playable as possible, I WANT them to be effective when played. That's the whole point. Not to do some weird fantasy Gene Roddenberry thing were humans are so amazing and every other race just sucks no matter what, even when there gods in all but name.


    I am bringing this point up in the hopes it can be calmly taken into consideration, so that the next time an outsider comes up on the table or other powerful race, like, say, Dragons, we can move along with out an immediate jump to "Let's give it a different unplayable LA that's lower but still unplayable!". Cause that defeats the purpose.
    Last edited by Metahuman1; 2016-07-28 at 07:35 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Metahuman1 View Post
    3: No, no those classes are NOT all over the place in terms of balance. Official listing puts them all in the same stones thrown of balance. Tier 3.
    Official listing? Really?
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2016-07-28 at 12:02 PM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    would you guys please let stirge continue the treat there is lot of monsters waiting to be rerated as properly

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Actually, warlocks can get it as an epic invocation at level 21.

    ...That's all I have to add to that. Carry on.
    Good catch, was ready for someone to find one I'd missed but I'd forgotten there's actual epic warlock material.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    In a (probably futile) attempt to stop the endless discussion of a single monster and start working on some new material, I'll raise the Hezrou LA to +3. I hope everyone can more-or-less see themselves playing this compromise.
    I can accept that, getting the dissent within one point of your own shot is basically a win. Starting from +3 means you can swing either way, +4 shouldn't cause too much pushback and even if dropped to +2 it's paid enough that the rest might be handled by personal restraint, knowing that it started at +3.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Marilith


    Looks like the abyssal plane has snakes on it too! (don't hit me)

    Mariliths are of course best known for their six arms. This allows for a variety of fighting styles, from wielding one really big greataxe to six-weapon-fighting. Note that the latter will eat up a huge chunk of your wealth, so know what you're getting yourself into!

    The demons have great ability scores. Strength and constitution are nearly 30, with all other scores at least 18. They're also Large (reach!), fast and can grapple and constrict people with their tail. The constriction has the added bonus of causing people to pass out if they fail a saving throw: too bad nearly everything can be immune to it at this level.

    SLA's are a mixed bunch. Magic Weapon is completely useless at this level, Align Weapon duplicates an ability you innately possess, so it's only useful to buff allies' weaponry against a handful of specific enemies. Greater Teleport is useful, but not incredibly special at this level anymore. See Invisibility is completely useless as far as I can see, because you already have continuous True Seeing. Project Image may be potent, but I can't help but dislike it because of the short range and mandatory line of effect. Finally, there is Blade Barrier (solid damage), Telekinesis (versatile) and Unholy Aura (useful when fighting do-gooders).

    Mariliths can summon a bunch of dretches, a hezrou or a nalfeshnee. They can also attempt to summon a glabrezu or marilith, but the chance of success will be greatly reduced.

    What LA to put here? I tend towards something in the +1 - +3 range. Because a dip to get pounce in whatever class gives it is more-or-less mandatory on a melee character, and because I want to allow for at least one more level beyond said dip, I'm tending towards +2.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I'm pretty sure the reason it gets Magic Weapon SLA is to give all its weapons a +1. Not that its a particularly effective strategy, your pre-battle buffing takes half a minute. Still pretty worthless though.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Because a dip to get pounce in whatever class gives it is more-or-less mandatory on a melee character
    You mean barbarian. It's okay, you can say it, we all know you're talking about barbarian.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by MesiDoomstalker View Post
    I'm pretty sure the reason it gets Magic Weapon SLA is to give all its weapons a +1. Not that its a particularly effective strategy, your pre-battle buffing takes half a minute. Still pretty worthless though.
    I know why it gets MW, and it may actually be mildly useful if the marilith's a wandering monster, but a PC shouldn't be walking around with nonmagical weapons at this level, not even if you're sextuple-wielding.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Nalfeshnee


    The Nalfeshnee is a high-ranking demon, somewhere between the Glabrezu and Marilith in the abyssal hierarchy.

    Nalfeshnees have the standard things one would expect of a demon: natural armor, high stats, energy immunities, SR, DR, telepathy and energy resistances. They're Huge with 15 feet reach, making them good for meleeers. Nalfeshnees also have two claw attacks and a bite attack, but the claw damage is only 1d8 and I'd recommend just grabbing a greatsword.

    The demons possess several special abilities. Most iconic is the confusingly-named 'Smite'. It's a delayed daze effect that doesn't affect demons. Interesting, and the strange name allows feats like Sapphire Smite to boost it.

    The spell-likes are not too great, but there's a few good ones. Call Lightning deals pitiful damage, even when used in a stormy area (which you have no way of generating). Feeblemind is a death sentence for arcane casters, but it's been available for quite a while now and you won't need it too often. Greater Dispel Magic will of course always be useful. Slow is a good debuff, but again far too low-level. Greater Teleport is par for the course on a demon, and Unholy Aura remains a decent party-wide buff.

    Finally, nalfeshness can summon vrocks, hezrous, a glabrezu or another nalfeshnee: let's just say there's worse things to summon.

    All in all, nalfeshnees are not bad, but they lack the strong, unique abilities other demons seem to possess. They seem about equal in power to a glabrezu to me: while they can summon the latter, they can only do so for an hour per day at most. +1 LA for now.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Thumbs up Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I'm really digging the PF demon artwork!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I actually seriously dislike the PF Marilith art. But to each his own.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quasit


    The quasit: another of the odd demons that lacks the tanar'ri subtype.

    Quasits have a reasonable chassis for a creature of their HD. They receive bonuses to dexterity and wisdom and a penalty to strength, have weak natural weapons (with semi-useful poison) and some natural armor. Their fly speed is great, their landspeed adequate. Finally, there's fast healing, DR, poison immunity and fire resistance: all good things to have.

    The tiny demons possess a few SLA's: Detect Good probably won't be so great (even in an evil campaign, many foes will be nongood) but Detect Magic is useful to have (as long as you don't have a warlock in the party). Self-only invisibility is wonderful at this level, especially if you can find a way to damage foes without breaking it (I find reserve feats useful there).

    They can also use Cause Fear with a 30 foot-radius once per day, which you'll get to use a few times before it gets obsolete. Sadly, due to the way PC and monster HD fail to match up and the awkward radius, you'll send your allies running more often than your enemies.

    Their last SLA, Commune, can be very impressive or very underwhelming, depending on who's behind the screen. The utility of the spell is highly DM-dependent, after all. It can either be a limitless source of information, or it can be the DM pointing you towards the plot you would've stumbled upon anyway.

    Finally, there's Alternate Form. Quasits get to pick two forms from a list of five. I would pick wolf and centipede myself, but it depends on your campaign. The alternate forms are unlikely to give you something you don't already have, though.

    The various abilities a quasit gives, combined with its excellent RHD, make +0 LA inappropriate. I'll put them at +1 instead.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2016-08-01 at 02:01 PM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quasit is way too good for +0. Forget about 9th level spells. You're talking about exactly level 20 and no other levels. You can't balance for only one level.

    I'd be with you if it were a humanoid, but this is an outsider. 3 HD are barely a drawback at all. Especially since you can go into Ur-Priest or Ardent or Sublime Chord and have full 9ths anyway, not even behind schedule.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Quasit is way too good for +0. Forget about 9th level spells. You're talking about exactly level 20 and no other levels. You can't balance for only one level.

    I'd be with you if it were a humanoid, but this is an outsider. 3 HD are barely a drawback at all. Especially since you can go into Ur-Priest or Ardent or Sublime Chord and have full 9ths anyway, not even behind schedule.
    I'll wait and see what others think first before raising the LA, okay?
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I'd give it a +1 or a +2 LA. I know you're not balancing for the LA-buyoff rules, but I will say that any DM who is willing to consider a Quasit having 9th level spells will likely be willing to use such rules. Otherwise, don't bother balancing for level 20-only. Really, the ideal thing is to balance for the level that they can enter play. If they drop off in effectiveness after that, then...well, that's why LA-buyoff rules exist as an option.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Good point. LA increased to +1.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Retriever


    How are these things 'demons' again? They lack any alignment or demonic subtype and are constructs rather than outsiders. Sure, they're CE abyssals, but so are bodaks and fiendish octopuses. Guess I'll just blame it on WotC being inconsistent again.

    Retrievers have 10 HD. Rather than the sweet, sweet outsider HD all 'demons' up till now had, they're construct HD. See for yourself how bad they are.

    Construct type, on the other hand, is pretty great, mostly because of the immunities. I'd list them, but I want to keep this post brief. The bonus HP you get do a decent job at making up for the retriever's lack of constitution, but I'd look into ways to increase toughness anyway.

    Retrievers have a decent chassis. High strength, huge size and a bite attack (which you can wield a mouthpick weapon in) equal a strong meleeer, and four claws only add to the damage. Dexterity is good for a Huge being, but wisdom and charisma (especially charisma) leave much to be desired. Then again, if the party wants a 20-feet-tall iron demon spider to be the face, one should find a new party.

    Then there's the random abilities every 'demon' seems to get. Improved Grab, which would be useful if any retriever wasn't going to use its mouth for weapon-wielding, Discern Location, a powerful spell with doubtful usefulness, and finally: four eye rays to pick from each round. Over the course of four rounds, a retriever will be dealing 36d6 points of various elemental damages and forcing a saving throw versus petrification, without having to spend any meaningful actions on this.

    Almost forgot: retrievers also have fast healing. Useful on a creature that doesn't heal naturally, I guess.

    What's a retriever worth? They're great at damaging stuff, but not outstandingly so. If it weren't for their eye rays, I'd put them at +1: about equal to other bruisers such as the bulette. With the eye rays, I feel +2 is in order: retrievers are simply too strong otherwise.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2017-04-05 at 02:27 AM.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Don't retrievers have "--" for intelligence? I suppose LA is still useful as a cohort guide, maybe. Though constructs...theoretically, they can be built. Aren't bebiliths noted to be the demon on which retrievers are "probably" modeled?

    This is one of those things that I suspect is a legacy monster from a relatively obscure campaign module that gave more detail on them and why they are what they are, but had those details stripped to be made generic enough for any game. And is the poorer for it, because there's no obvious reason they are as they are.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Segev View Post
    Don't retrievers have "--" for intelligence? I suppose LA is still useful as a cohort guide, maybe. Though constructs...theoretically, they can be built. Aren't bebiliths noted to be the demon on which retrievers are "probably" modeled?

    This is one of those things that I suspect is a legacy monster from a relatively obscure campaign module that gave more detail on them and why they are what they are, but had those details stripped to be made generic enough for any game. And is the poorer for it, because there's no obvious reason they are as they are.
    I've assigned LA's to several mindless monsters already. In my experience, it's relatively easy to get an intelligence score on a creature, and it's not like doing so would break Retrievers.

    Besides, WotC has released mindless monsters with a LA, too. Dustform creatures and hairy spiders come to mind.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    I've assigned LA's to several mindless monsters already. In my experience, it's relatively easy to get an intelligence score on a creature, and it's not like doing so would break Retrievers.

    Besides, WotC has released mindless monsters with a LA, too. Dustform creatures and hairy spiders come to mind.
    Alright! I missed that you'd already set the precedent. My apologies.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Succubus



    Here you go, Khadgar.

    Succubi are 6 HD demons with a wide array of powers. Their base chassis is quite nice, with a huge charisma bonus and various bonuses to all other ability scores. DR, SR, immunities and telepathy are all good to have too, of course.

    Energy Drain is very flavorful, but not too strong. After all, if you're in a position to plant a kiss on someone, you're also in a position to introduce some knifes to their pancreas. The spell-like abilities are all useful to some degree, but will most likely only be used in social or scouting situations.

    Furthermore, succubi have a small chance of summoning a vrock each day. If your primary combat ability is a pair of claws, then a disposable melee summon can certainly be useful.

    I already touched on this in the previous paragraph, but succubi lack one thing: combat ability. In a game where some, if not most of all encounters will involve combat, this is bad. Summoning a vrock is only useful for an hour every few days: Charm Monster will only delay fights, not end them, and Energy Drain requires either a noncombat situation or grappling (which succubi don't exactly excel at).

    Then again, when assigning LA's I tend to assume the player using the monster is doing so in a game where said monster will be useful. No one is going to play a bulette in an urban intrigue game, so I'm not deducting points for the bulette's lack of social skills. Similarly, the succubus doesn't deserve a LA deduction for failing to be useful in-combat: if someone plays it in a combat-heavy campaign it's their own fault.

    In the end, I think a level adjustment of +2 would fit best, though I wonder if I should increase it to +3. As always, the hivemind is welcome to opine about this.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Succubus



    Here you go, Khadgar.

    Succubi are 6 HD demons with a wide array of powers. Their base chassis is quite nice, with a huge charisma bonus and various bonuses to all other ability scores. DR, SR, immunities and telepathy are all good to have too, of course.

    Energy Drain is very flavorful, but not too strong. After all, if you're in a position to plant a kiss on someone, you're also in a position to introduce some knifes to their pancreas. The spell-like abilities are all useful to some degree, but will most likely only be used in social or scouting situations.

    Furthermore, succubi have a small chance of summoning a vrock each day. If your primary combat ability is a pair of claws, then a disposable melee summon can certainly be useful.

    I already touched on this in the previous paragraph, but succubi lack one thing: combat ability. In a game where some, if not most of all encounters will involve combat, this is bad. Summoning a vrock is only useful for an hour every few days: Charm Monster will only delay fights, not end them, and Energy Drain requires either a noncombat situation or grappling (which succubi don't exactly excel at).

    Then again, when assigning LA's I tend to assume the player using the monster is doing so in a game where said monster will be useful. No one is going to play a bulette in an urban intrigue game, so I'm not deducting points for the bulette's lack of social skills. Similarly, the succubus doesn't deserve a LA deduction for failing to be useful in-combat: if someone plays it in a combat-heavy campaign it's their own fault.

    In the end, I think a level adjustment of +2 would fit best, though I wonder if I should increase it to +3. As always, the hivemind is welcome to opine about this.
    from cr 7 to cr 2 i thing i found my new race by the way love the picture
    Last edited by khadgar567; 2016-08-06 at 10:19 AM.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by khadgar567 View Post
    from cr 7 to cr 2 i thing i found my new race by the way love the picture
    Don't thank me, thank Tyler Walpole.
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