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  1. - Top - End - #901
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I guess that's why David won; Goliath was an unoptimized mess with worthless HD.
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  2. - Top - End - #902
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    I guess that's why David won; Goliath was an unoptimized mess with worthless HD.
    Well, David probably wasn't very optimised for combat either; he was a musician before he fought Goliath.

  3. - Top - End - #903
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiri View Post
    Well, David probably wasn't very optimised for combat either; he was a musician before he fought Goliath.
    Even using the CR system for "Non-associated Class Levels" Bard levels are worth 1/2 CR, which is the most ANY Racial HD is worth (and only Dragons and Outsiders are worth 1/2 CR per HD). Far from optimized.

    Honestly any Racial HD that isn't Outsider or Dragon isn't worth anywhere near it's HD in ECL, so it would really be CR 0- for 90% of monster IMHO. Dragons and Outsiders on the other hand have Racial HD that would make them better characters than at least 1/4th of the classes in D&D based off Racial abilities alone.

  4. - Top - End - #904
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiri View Post
    Well, David probably wasn't very optimised for combat either; he was a musician before he fought Goliath.
    That's exactly why he won! Max ranks in Perform (Oratory), Dragonfire Inspiration yourself, and go to town. David even does a short speech before attacking!
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  5. - Top - End - #905
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Gibbering Mouther


    Yo dawg, I herd you like mouths, so I put mouths in your mouths so you can scream while you scream.

    Gibbering Mouthers: aberrations with four HD, too many teeth, and an apparently TN alignment (because killing sapient beings when you don't have to is totally not evil).

    Their base chassis could be better, but it's not horrible either. Ability scores are mostly either small bonuses or huge penalties (-6 intelligence), but constitution has a whopping +12 bonus. Mouthers also have a huge natural armor bonus (equivalent to full plate), a whoppin' six bite attacks (admittantly weak ones, but mouthpick is a thing) and even some DR.

    Their special attacks are interesting too. Spittle is apparantly useable as part of a full attack in addition to being usable for free once per round and can inflict blindness for several turns, Gibbering is a big save-or-suck that your allies are protected against with some trouble, and Ground Manipulation basically robs everyone nearby of their move action. Oh, and being amorphous immunizes you to a few common attack forms.

    The Improved Grab + Swallow Whole + Blood Drain trifecta seems pretty bad at first glance, as the mouther is a medium creature with no inherent strength bonus. However, advancing it by a single HD makes it become Large, adding a whopping +8 to its grapple modifier.

    All considered, I think +2 LA is best here. In addition to the advancement shenanigans already mentioned, mouthers are simply a strong monster with lots of useful abilities. I admit I've strongly considered a +1 LA, though.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  6. - Top - End - #906
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Would mouthers get a huge penalty to social skills?

  7. - Top - End - #907
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Eugh, I would definitely not want a gibbering mouther as a PC. Definitely support erring on the side of higher LA.

  8. - Top - End - #908
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    It has a swim speed, too! I wouldn't drink the water that thing was swimming in, though.

    My main issue with the Mouther is - where do you go from the basic model? It can't be a caster, its Strength is nothing special, grappling is a joke strategy at most levels. Ground Manipulation is cool, but mostly useful outdoors and sharply drops off as soon as things start to fly. Spittle has mediocre range, and Gibbering is mind-affecting and thus easy to counter. I think it deserves no more than +1 LA on these grounds.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  9. - Top - End - #909
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Eugh
    That's basically how I reacted too
    VC XV, The horsemen are drawing nearer: The Alien and the Omen (part 1 and part 2).
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  10. - Top - End - #910
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Could be interesting, though, especially if you find a way to disguise yourself.

  11. - Top - End - #911
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiri View Post
    Could be interesting, though, especially if you find a way to disguise yourself.
    An alter self effect can give you the form of an Elan, which is basically a person. Tricky to get outside of being a caster though, and you also don't want to lose the goodies of your own form.

    As an amorphous being, a gibbering mouther could probably be easily concealed inside bags, clothing, or similar.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  12. - Top - End - #912
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    It has a swim speed, too! I wouldn't drink the water that thing was swimming in, though.

    My main issue with the Mouther is - where do you go from the basic model? It can't be a caster, its Strength is nothing special, grappling is a joke strategy at most levels. Ground Manipulation is cool, but mostly useful outdoors and sharply drops off as soon as things start to fly. Spittle has mediocre range, and Gibbering is mind-affecting and thus easy to counter. I think it deserves no more than +1 LA on these grounds.
    Psychic Warrior, maybe, becoming a mean grapplomancer with Expansion and Iron Grip to back you up. In fact, any wisdom- or charisma-based casters seems to be fair game, and they get a +2 modifier to both; maybe an Ur-Priest?

    Discounting all casting and manifesting, you could probably make a mean Ubercharger/Pounce build with its six bite attacks and improved grab, especially when using mouthpick weapons. Especially since all it takes is +1 RHD to get Large size and a competent strength score.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    As an amorphous being, a gibbering mouther could probably be easily concealed inside bags, clothing, or similar.
    "Anything to declare?"

    "No, officer. Just my Large sack. Very inconspicuous."

    "Ah, I see. Well, in you go, then."
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  13. - Top - End - #913
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I ran an encounter once with 3 gibbering mouthers (1, then 2), and 8-10 NPCs, plus the party.

    Some posts had over 80 rolls to adjudicate the results of (confusion save, then effects of confusion if failed).

    Never again.

  14. - Top - End - #914
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    An alter self effect can give you the form of an Elan, which is basically a person. Tricky to get outside of being a caster though, and you also don't want to lose the goodies of your own form.

    As an amorphous being, a gibbering mouther could probably be easily concealed inside bags, clothing, or similar.
    To be honest, I was just thinking of how fun it would be to disguise yourself as a normal-looking humanoid, seduce someone into some act of passion and then reveal your true form.

    Probably only for Evil characters, though.

  15. - Top - End - #915
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiri View Post
    Could be interesting, though, especially if you find a way to disguise yourself.
    I'm briefly imagining a sadistic DM that hides these as NPCs all the time. That princess you saved and received a kiss from? Gibbering Mouther. The barmaid you flirted with after a few pints of mead? Gibbering Mouther. The inn keeper you rented a room from? Gibbering Mouther. Like a Chuck Testa or Dropbear meme or something.
    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    What I care about here, though, is that the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.
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  16. - Top - End - #916
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    You don't need to imagine him; I exist.

  17. - Top - End - #917
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiri View Post
    Probably only for Evil characters, though.
    Knock it off with the kink-shaming already.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  18. - Top - End - #918
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    My main issue with the Mouther is - where do you go from the basic model? It can't be a caster, its Strength is nothing special, grappling is a joke strategy at most levels. Ground Manipulation is cool, but mostly useful outdoors and sharply drops off as soon as things start to fly. Spittle has mediocre range, and Gibbering is mind-affecting and thus easy to counter. I think it deserves no more than +1 LA on these grounds.
    There are plenty of fine prestige classes that racial hit dice can get you into, plus initiator classes, which might as well be prestige classes, honestly. If you're half-decent at optimization, you shouldn't have any trouble finding something good.

  19. - Top - End - #919
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    WhiteWizardGirl

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I just want to say: Ewww.

  20. - Top - End - #920
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I just realized that you skipped Gelatinous Cube. Is there a reason for that? I was really looking forward to Ol' Cubey.
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  21. - Top - End - #921
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    I just realized that you skipped Gelatinous Cube. Is there a reason for that? I was really looking forward to Ol' Cubey.
    Gelatinous Cubes are under 'O' for Ooze, along with Black Pudding and Ochre Jelly.
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  22. - Top - End - #922
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    Gelatinous Cubes are under 'O' for Ooze, along with Black Pudding and Ochre Jelly.
    Darn it. That means I have to wait. :(
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  23. - Top - End - #923
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    Inevitability's Avatar

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Man, that's a lot of posts. I guess mouthers are popular.

    Quote Originally Posted by Novolin View Post
    Would mouthers get a huge penalty to social skills?
    Not by RAW!

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    It has a swim speed, too! I wouldn't drink the water that thing was swimming in, though.

    My main issue with the Mouther is - where do you go from the basic model? It can't be a caster, its Strength is nothing special, grappling is a joke strategy at most levels. Ground Manipulation is cool, but mostly useful outdoors and sharply drops off as soon as things start to fly. Spittle has mediocre range, and Gibbering is mind-affecting and thus easy to counter. I think it deserves no more than +1 LA on these grounds.
    Noted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiri View Post
    Could be interesting, though, especially if you find a way to disguise yourself.
    Mouther with 14 charisma, 7 ranks in Disguise (gained as class skill through City Slicker), a disguise kit and a masterwork tool has a +13 modifier. Subtract 2 for pretending to be a different race, take 10, and you end up with a result of 21, meaning no matter how hard they try no commoner will see through your disguise.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    An alter self effect can give you the form of an Elan, which is basically a person. Tricky to get outside of being a caster though, and you also don't want to lose the goodies of your own form.
    Slime Lord, perhaps?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiri View Post
    To be honest, I was just thinking of how fun it would be to disguise yourself as a normal-looking humanoid, seduce someone into some act of passion and then reveal your true form.

    Probably only for Evil characters, though.
    Well, mouthers do have that charisma bonus...
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  24. - Top - End - #924
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Mouther with 14 charisma, 7 ranks in Disguise (gained as class skill through City Slicker), a disguise kit and a masterwork tool has a +13 modifier. Subtract 2 for pretending to be a different race, take 10, and you end up with a result of 21, meaning no matter how hard they try no commoner will see through your disguise.
    That's not true, there are circumstance modifiers!

  25. - Top - End - #925
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    There are plenty of fine prestige classes that racial hit dice can get you into, plus initiator classes, which might as well be prestige classes, honestly. If you're half-decent at optimization, you shouldn't have any trouble finding something good.
    The issue is not finding something to do. The issue is finding something to do that synergizes well with the Mouther's abilities. As-is, they fall into irrelevance fairly quickly and then you're sitting on 4 or 5 mediocre HD and some LA for nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    Greater
    \ˈgrā-tər \
    comparative adjective
    1. Describing basically the exact same monster but with twice the RHD.
    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  26. - Top - End - #926
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    That's not true, there are circumstance modifiers!
    Show me where in the PHB it says that!
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2017-01-03 at 01:28 PM.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  27. - Top - End - #927
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    Show me where in the PHB it says that!
    It's in the DMG, not the PHB, silly. Page 30.

  28. - Top - End - #928
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    It's in the DMG, not the PHB, silly. Page 30.
    Yes, but if the Mouther is very good at roleplay, he should get the circumstantial modifier!

    "Yes, this is quite a lovely human conversation we are having, it it not?"

    "Er, I guess so... Say, did your elbow just burp?"

    "(*gurgles incomprehensively*)"

    "I beg your pardon?"

    "I mean, no, of course not, silly human companion."

    Editor's Note: See Octodad for another excellent example of Mouther-class disguise roleplay in the wild
    Quote Originally Posted by eggynack View Post
    What I care about here, though, is that the highest standard of pedantry is upheld.
    Level 6 Dread Necromancers can start the apocalypse
    Level 12 Bards can counter T1 spellcasters and kill Greater Deities

  29. - Top - End - #929
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Doctor Despair View Post
    Yes, but if the Mouther is very good at roleplay, he should get the circumstantial modifier!

    "Yes, this is quite a lovely human conversation we are having, it it not?"

    "Er, I guess so... Say, did your elbow just burp?"

    "(*gurgles incomprehensively*)"

    "I beg your pardon?"

    "I mean, no, of course not, silly human companion."

    Editor's Note: See Octodad for another excellent example of Mouther-class disguise roleplay in the wild
    New life goal: get DM to accept gibbering mouther PC with max ranks in Profession (Actor).
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  30. - Top - End - #930
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Eugh, I would definitely not want a gibbering mouther as a PC. Definitely support erring on the side of higher LA.
    Because you think they make really strong PCs, or because you think they are inappropriate as PCs?

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