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  1. - Top - End - #1231
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I'm not entirely sure we can completely ignore the Covey - it should be straightforward enough for a single player to form one with a bit of Leadership cheese.

    And how gamebreaking would it be if everybody plays a Sea Hag to form a covey a ECL 4?
    (That one sounds kinda interesting, actually...)

  2. - Top - End - #1232
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AMX View Post
    I'm not entirely sure we can completely ignore the Covey - it should be straightforward enough for a single player to form one with a bit of Leadership cheese.
    Then the thing that's the problem is Leadership.

    And how gamebreaking would it be if everybody plays a Sea Hag to form a covey a ECL 4?
    (That one sounds kinda interesting, actually...)
    Then it's not broken because everyone has clearly decided to play a very specific game, and that is entirely the point.
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  3. - Top - End - #1233
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    The idea of an ECL 4 covey is interesting indeed. Even if the SLAs aren't used in combat (as all hags have to spend their action on it), you're still getting Mind Blank for all covey members, easy long-distance communication through Dream, excellent information gathering with Vision, hordes of disposable undead... Then when the hags do start using it in battles, Forcecage basically ends any fight quickly and easily at those levels. All this is without the usual costs, as they are SLAs.

    However, I'm not sure how to balance this out. I could just increase the sea hag's LA, but that seems unfair to the players who aren't interested in forming or able to form a covey. Adding a warning for DMs about coveys and letting players form them may be a better solution.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  4. - Top - End - #1234
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I don't think coveys should affect LA. Many races have powerful exploits tied to them, and usually they are a lot less obvious than "entire party is hags." LA should be awarded for broad power (a high STR score benefits all warriors) and not specific cheese.

    Somewhat tangential, a web article offers an alternative covey power set for specific half-elemental hags.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2017-02-22 at 11:13 AM.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  5. - Top - End - #1235
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    LA should be awarded for broad power (a high STR score benefits all warriors) and not specific cheese.
    Agreed. As I stated earlier, a player who wants to break the system can do so with any race.

    That said, how would being in a covey affect ECL?
    The spell-likes have limited combat utility, partly because most aren't combat abilities but mostly because of their terrible action economy. (Using all of the entire party's actions for a whole round for bestow cure or forcecage isn't likely to be much use...maybe if you need to seal off an extremely dangerous enemy?) That said, there are some useful abilities in there. Dream, mirage arcana, veil, vision, and maybe control weather can negate some noncombat challenges, but potentially open up new adventures (say, "The count wants you to hurry across the countryside and disguise his illicit fields" or allies you can contact via dreamor plot hooks via vision or something). Mind blank is neat and all, but I'm not seeing a lot of general utility, unless scry-and-die is a common magician tactic. The only spells I see potentially having a serious impact are forcecage (for quickly isolating a sufficiently high-priority enemy) and animate dead (36 HD of undead minions, and since it's a spell-like there's no onyx?), but clever adventure design can work around those issues (deliberately giving the players forcecage opportunities, or groups of minor minions to have the skeletons fight paired with major enemies for the players to focus on).

    Hm...that actually sounds like an interesting campaign...
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  6. - Top - End - #1236
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
    However, I'm not sure how to balance this out. I could just increase the sea hag's LA, but that seems unfair to the players who aren't interested in forming or able to form a covey. Adding a warning for DMs about coveys and letting players form them may be a better solution.
    If the covey would change the LA by at least a level, I'd suggest doing as WotC did with the Pixies: a separate LA if the hag is a member of a covey. Perhaps even something like they gain the LA as soon as they form a covey, but that new LA is permanent (even if all other members of the covey have died). If nothing else, this gives DM an approximate value for a covey, which is roughly the goal of this entire project.

  7. - Top - End - #1237
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Maybe similar to the sidebar about aquatic races in an aquatic campaign, saying races with water breathing and a swim speed may deserve LA +1.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Thurbane View Post
    Maybe similar to the sidebar about aquatic races in an aquatic campaign, saying races with water breathing and a swim speed may deserve LA +1.
    I have always found that absurdly bizarre. Like, if I'm not playing in an aquatic campaign, then the race is almost unplayable because I'll start suffocating after an hour, but at least there's no LA? On the other hand, if it is an aquatic campaign, then it would be fair to assume that everyone is taking a water breathing race because otherwise you'll start drowning after 30 seconds. And then you get punished with LA for doing the logical thing?

    Having a swim speed is not worth LA in an game where having a swim speed is the standard, and to link that back to the topic, being in a covey should not be worth LA in game where everyone plays a hag. There is literally zero practical reason for giving every member of the party LA since the only reason LA exists is to manage inter-party balance. If everyone has X, then X should not cost LA.
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  9. - Top - End - #1239
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Celestia View Post
    I have always found that absurdly bizarre. Like, if I'm not playing in an aquatic campaign, then the race is almost unplayable because I'll start suffocating after an hour, but at least there's no LA? On the other hand, if it is an aquatic campaign, then it would be fair to assume that everyone is taking a water breathing race because otherwise you'll start drowning after 30 seconds. And then you get punished with LA for doing the logical thing?
    I think the thinking is "people who don't pick aquatic races are at a disadvantage, but negative LA is an awful idea."

    Having a swim speed is not worth LA in an game where having a swim speed is the standard, and to link that back to the topic, being in a covey should not be worth LA in game where everyone plays a hag. There is literally zero practical reason for giving every member of the party LA since the only reason LA exists is to manage inter-party balance. If everyone has X, then X should not cost LA.
    Well, the LA would still contribute to party level when measuring against encounter CRs, because CRs are tweaked to perfection using scientific methods, and the system must never be defied.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  10. - Top - End - #1240
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    I think the thinking is "people who don't pick aquatic races are at a disadvantage, but negative LA is an awful idea."
    Yes. Picking a non-aquatic race in an aquatic campaign is A silly thing to do.

    Well, the LA would still contribute to party level when measuring against encounter CRs, because CRs are tweaked to perfection using scientific methods, and the system must never be defied.
    Okay, I must concede defeat here. The flawless machine of CR balance must never be questioned, and I was wrong to try.
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  11. - Top - End - #1241
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I am actually playing an nautical campaign right now where no one is allowed a swim speed or water breathing though any race, spell,effect or item. Its kind of nice because I think it captures the more dangerous feel of being a sailor in ye olden days. I agree that LA for swim is insane in almost every case, if you need it that bad, like your campaign is underwater entirely, then if you don't have it you just die.

    And of course the holy CR shall not be besmirched ever. That adamantine clockwork horror is totally CR 8.

  12. - Top - End - #1242
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Efrate View Post
    I am actually playing an nautical campaign right now where no one is allowed a swim speed or water breathing though any race, spell,effect or item. Its kind of nice because I think it captures the more dangerous feel of being a sailor in ye olden days.
    Quite, and good on you. It's rare for GMs to try and craft sort of mechanical tone in tabletop RPGs.
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  13. - Top - End - #1243
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Half-Celestial


    Half-celestials are the fourth template reviewed so far, and the first of the MM's three halvies. The template can be applied to any reasonably clever (gibbering mouthers and up) living creature that's not evil, turning it into a (native) outsider. Anything with RHD also has its number of skill points increased.

    Their powers are varied, ranging from increased physical and mental abilities to wings and SLA's. In addition, half-celestials have a small number of random bonuses, such as immunity to disease and energy resistance.

    Compared to half-fey, half-celestials have better skills and ability scores, slightly stronger immunities and resistances, but weaker flight and SLA's. These differences are large enough to warrant an extra point of LA, I'd say.

    +3 LA.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2017-03-01 at 03:10 AM.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  14. - Top - End - #1244
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I'd say +3. Half-celestials get the following edges over half-fey:

    • Better type, arguably - lots of stuff is only accessible to outsiders, and fey have much less unique content
    • +1 natural AC
    • Supernatural daylight and arguably more powerful SLAs
    • 1/day Smite Evil
    • Darkvision rather than LLV
    • Immunity to disease and +4 vs poison
    • Resist 10 to 3 energy types
    • DR 10/magic, natural weapons treated as magic for DR
    • SR HD+10
    • Net stat difference: Str +4, Con +6, Int +2, Wis +2


    The only thing they lose out on is enchantment immunity.

    Would you take a class level that granted you all this stuff? I would.
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    I'm going to be honest, "the Welsh became a Great Power and conquered Germany" is almost exactly the opposite of the explanation I was expecting

  15. - Top - End - #1245
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    I'd say +3. Half-celestials get the following edges over half-fey:

    • Better type, arguably - lots of stuff is only accessible to outsiders, and fey have much less unique content
    • +1 natural AC
    • Supernatural daylight and arguably more powerful SLAs
    • 1/day Smite Evil
    • Darkvision rather than LLV
    • Immunity to disease and +4 vs poison
    • Resist 10 to 3 energy types
    • DR 10/magic, natural weapons treated as magic for DR
    • SR HD+10
    • Net stat difference: Str +4, Con +6, Int +2, Wis +2


    The only thing they lose out on is enchantment immunity.

    Would you take a class level that granted you all this stuff? I would.
    All these things are just small numerical increases, though. They don't really grant any special abilities (outside of Polymorph). I don't think I'd take them over a level in a T3 class. They're definitely better than 1-2 levels in Fighter or some other T4 class, though. The way I see it, the energy resistance and the stats are the only super worthwhile things here.

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  16. - Top - End - #1246
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I'd say they're actually rather large numerical increases.

    I lean towards +3, but +2 is at least within the realm of sanity. I think it was even mistakenly printed as +2 in Book of Exalted Deeds, right?
    Last edited by Troacctid; 2017-02-28 at 07:22 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #1247
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    Thumbs up Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Put me down as a vote for LA +3.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    If it were +2, it would be a strong contender for the best +2 template in the game. Half-Fey is similar, but lacks the defensive abilities (and even gives a penalty to your HP). Saint compares well enough, although it has weaker stat boosts and no flight, and the feat prerequisite is pretty harsh. Shadow is a bit of a one-trick pony, even if that trick is very good. And Gravetouched Ghoul has good stat increases and offensive and defensive abilities, but no flight, and your HP is nerfed.

    I would go +3, but with a Savage Progression so that players can get a lesser version of it for +2 or +1.

  19. - Top - End - #1249
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    There are contradictory rules concerning the casting time of SLAs. The SRD has this, largely reasonable one...

    A spell-like ability takes the same amount of time to complete as the spell that it mimics (usually 1 standard action) unless otherwise stated.
    But also this dumber one...

    The casting time of a spell-like ability is 1 standard action, unless the ability description notes otherwise.
    I'm of the opinion that the former is the one that takes precedent, as it comes from the Special Abilities section, whereas the latter comes from a subsection on Using Special Abilities, but for whatever it's worth, the Rules Compendium does state that SLAs are standard actions.

    This is consequential for Half-Celestials (and will be later on for Half-Fiends), because Hallow and Unhallow are really good if you can cast them as standard actions. Even if they use the usual casting time they can be dropped down to a swift with Quicken SLA as it lacks the verbiage about casting time that Quicken Spell has, but that requires a caster level (and hence character level) of 18, which is an ECL of 20 or 21 at an ECL of +2 or +3.
    Last edited by WhamBamSam; 2017-02-28 at 10:31 PM.

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  20. - Top - End - #1250
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    It looks like I'm in the minority, but I'd say +2. The flight speed is nice, but not unique. The stat mods are nice, but, again, not unique, especially if templates really on the table. Some of the spell-likes are good, but mostly only the late game ones where LA becomes more painful, anyways. Everything else is mediocre at best or easily replicated by class features. Sure, it's a strong +2, but it's still just a +2. You couldn't pay me to play it at +3.
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  21. - Top - End - #1251
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Put me down for +3 às well, the SR alone is worth the extra level over Half Fey, IMO.

    When you consider the slew of very nice SLAs, the not-inconsiderable ability bonuses, the immunities and resistances?

    I think the right character can make good use of it.

    Besides, it's still in the range of a buy-off.

  22. - Top - End - #1252
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Voting for +2 myself.

  23. - Top - End - #1253
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Here's a good example of a three-level Savage Progression that I might use for it.

    Level
    Abilities
    1 +2 Con, +2 Wis, +2 Cha, Outsider type, darkvision 60 feet, glide speed (equal to land speed, average), +4 vs. poison and disease, Smite Evil, Daylight 1/day, spell-like abilities (up to 6 HD)
    2 +2 Str, +2 Con, +2 Cha, fly speed (equal to land speed, average), immunity to disease, damage reduction, resistance to acid/cold/electricity 5, spell resistance (5 + HD), Daylight 3/day, natural armor +1, spell-like abilities (up to 12 HD)
    3 +2 Str, +2 Dex, +2 Int, +2 Wis, fly speed (twice land speed, good), spell resistance (10 + HD), resistance to acid/cold/electricity 10, Daylight at will, spell-like abilities (up to 20 HD)

    This is intentionally more frontloaded than the Aasimar/Half-Celestial transition class on the WotC website in order to make the later levels feel more "optional." I think this would be a better balance point than having all the abilities crammed into +2 LA. Heck, there's even room to stretch it out to 4 levels.

  24. - Top - End - #1254
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I think it is a plus 3. That is a lot of good stuff in one package, yes magic items can replace a lot of it, but I think 3 is fine. I think its a bit too much at 2. You still get 9ths on a very nice base.

  25. - Top - End - #1255
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Seems like most consider half-celestial to be a +3. LA changed.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Incidentally, I think Savage Progressions are really helpful for balancing this sort of thing because they allow you to give a difficult monster a higher level adjustment without making it unplayable.

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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Without the wings, it would be a reasonable +2, I think. I've twice done a wingless half-celestial, which is essentially a powered-up aasimar with other racial traits.

  28. - Top - End - #1258
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Half-Dragon


    I seriously considered using that one half-dragon beholder picture here, but decided to go with some wholesome HotDQ villainy instead.

    Half-dragon boosts strength, intelligence, dexterity and charisma, as well as natural armor. The first is especially increased, which I'm sure melee characters will be overjoyed to hear.

    There is (of course) also a type change to dragon, which is neat because it qualifies one for a plethora of goodies. Being a half-dragon further enhances some of those, such as Dragonfire Inspiration.

    Creatures with RHD can also enjoy more skill points and HP, as a neat added bonus.

    Finally, there's the natural weapons and breath weapon. The former consists of two near-worthless claws (I like wielding weapons), and a bite (sure, more attacks are nice). The latter is a 1/day (boooo) ability to deal 6d8 damage.

    Just from this, one might think a +1 LA is barely justifiable. I disagree there: half-dragons have a lot of side material and variant abilities that warrant a +2.
    Have you had enough of unreasonably high LA's and unplayable monsters in 3.5? Then check out the LA-assignment thread! Don't hesitate to give feedback!

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  29. - Top - End - #1259
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Well, half-dragons do qualify for (Improved) Rapidstrike/Multiattack, so no need to write off claws entirely.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Half-dragon is great at low levels, when 6d8 is a real number. Later on, not so much. Based on that, and the fact that without some op-fu dragon type isn't all that useful, I would vote for +1.
    Quote Originally Posted by Inevitability View Post
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    Quote Originally Posted by Artanis View Post
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