The LA-assignment thread

[danielxcutter]

As is so often the case, I disagree with you here. Well, on the first part: the second part is correct.

Hobgoblins look strong, because they get direct bonuses to moderately useful stats. However, as has been pointed out, a feat is in many cases equal if not better. Even compared to 'normal' +0 LA races, such as dwarves, I'd pick them over hobgoblin in most cases.

Ask for yourself: is +2 dexterity and a +4 bonus on move silently worth 90 ft. darkvision, saving throw bonuses against spells and poisons, bonuses against common enemies and on common skills, and what may be the biggest pile of race-specific material in the game? The -2 charisma is nearly irrelevant, because anyone with a -2 charisma race is not going to have a class that needs it.

Hobgoblins, at +0 LA, are useful in their own way. At +1 LA, they're the ridiculed fodder they are today.

So they aren't that bad, but they aren't an optimal choice, like half-elves or half-orcs?

Also I thought elves would have more racial material. Then again, I don't think elves have something like Races of Stone.

What downside does a lesser aasimar have, pray tell? Energy resistances, +2 to two stats, skill bonuses, a SLA, darkvision, and tons of racial support seem to come at little to no penalty.

Being banned at tables for being too powerful.

What are you talking about? There's lots of reasons not to take humans! Hasn't anyone taught you a thing about strongheart halflings?

Oh, but who can get into Chameleon, one of the most ridiculous PrCs(in a powerful way) that isn't intended for casters? Who can get Able Learner? Not to mention that Stronghearts are setting-specific, while humans are everywhere. How many tables ban humans?

Plus if they really are better than humans then they require an even higher LA.

[Thurbane]

Also I thought elves would have more racial material. Then again, I don't think elves have something like Races of Stone.

Races of the Wild, among others. Elves are one of the most-supported races (alongside Dwarves) for racial feats, PrCs, items etc. Although their stuff doesn't tend to be as cool (or powerful) as the Dwarf stuff.

[danielxcutter]

Races of the Wild, among others. Elves are one of the most-supported races (alongside Dwarves) for racial feats, PrCs, items etc. Although their stuff doesn't tend to be as cool (or powerful) as the Dwarf stuff.

Hmm, I see. I remember that ToB has PrCs for both, and they're both pretty sweet. Too bad Orcs don't get even remotely the same amount of love.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, pretty much every Orc PrC is "X of Gruumsh" or "Y of Gruumsh" - all tend to be melee focused, not particularly great at it, and often involve being blind in one eye.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Yeah, pretty much every Orc PrC is "X of Gruumsh" or "Y of Gruumsh" - all tend to be melee focused, not particularly great at it, and often involve being blind in one eye.

It's racial profiling, I tell ya. Drow had it just as bad until Drizzt came along. But at least they get classes. Duergar and goblins and so on get squat.

[Tiri]

It's racial profiling, I tell ya. Drow had it just as bad until Drizzt came along. But at least they get classes. Duergar and goblins and so on get squat.

Well, duergar are just a kind of dwarf, so they have all the dwarf stuff. Saying they have nothing is like saying 'wood elves have nothing'. Goblins also have Hexer, but that isn't much.

Goblins are just unlucky because they're not a variant of a PHB race, and didn't have the luck of the kobolds. Really, the only 'monstrous' or evil races that get any substantial support outside of Savage Species are PHB-race variants.

[Inevitability]

There's also Stonedeath Assassin for goblinoids, which I suppose is a reasonable PrC for a rogue. Probably not as good as the default assassin, though.

Also, the Darguun Mauler feat requires the goblinoid subtype. A hobgoblin tripper might want to pick it instead of EWP (spiked chain).

[Tiri]

There's also Stonedeath Assassin for goblinoids, which I suppose is a reasonable PrC for a rogue. Probably not as good as the default assassin, though.

Well, it would be asking too much for them to get something that would actually make them hard to fight, I suppose.

[ZamielVanWeber]

What downside does a lesser aasimar have, pray tell? Energy resistances, +2 to two stats, skill bonuses, a SLA, darkvision, and tons of racial support seem to come at little to no penalty.[/COLOR]

The extraplanar subtype is really obnoxious lategame unless you are willing to hold a Rod of Embassy at all times. I never said it was huge, but a DM can definitely punish you if they want.

[Tiri]

The extraplanar subtype is really obnoxious lategame unless you are willing to hold a Rod of Embassy at all times. I never said it was huge, but a DM can definitely punish you if they want.

Lesser Aasimars don't have the extraplanar subtype. They have the planetouched subtype, which does absolutely nothing.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Well, duergar are just a kind of dwarf, so they have all the dwarf stuff.

Oh. Yeah, I guess they'd qualify.

The extraplanar subtype is really obnoxious lategame unless you are willing to hold a Rod of Embassy at all times. I never said it was huge, but a DM can definitely punish you if they want.

Huh? What, by banishment?

[atemu1234]

Oh, but who can get into Chameleon, one of the most ridiculous PrCs(in a powerful way) that isn't intended for casters? Who can get Able Learner? Not to mention that Stronghearts are setting-specific, while humans are everywhere. How many tables ban humans?

Plus if they really are better than humans then they require an even higher LA.

Human Heritage can get you the [Human] Subtype.

[Inevitability]

Hobgoblins

WotC Hates Goblinoids III: Revenge of the Suck.

I'm not going to repeat everything that has been said on the last page, but the consensus seems to be that +2 dexterity and constitution, +4 move silently, and darkvision aren't worth a point of LA. I agree. That's it, post is over.

[atemu1234]

Hobgoblins

WotC Hates Goblinoids III: Revenge of the Suck.

I'm not going to repeat everything that has been said on the last page, but the consensus seems to be that +2 dexterity and constitution, +4 move silently, and darkvision aren't worth a point of LA. I agree with these people. That's it, post is over.

If we're using Pathfinder standards for the weird race points things, these track behind basically everything, because everything else gets some unique ability of some kind.
If we're using 3.5 standards, humans definitely track ahead even without the LA.
If we're using 3.5 standards with lesser aasimar as the standard, then these things are just plain old awful.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Lesser Aasimars don't have the extraplanar subtype. They have the planetouched subtype, which does absolutely nothing.

I checked and you are right. Oops.

Oh. Yeah, I guess they'd qualify.


Huh? What, by banishment?

The Word spells as well. Those trying to smack you into another place is insanely obnoxious.

[MesiDoomstalker]

I checked and you are right. Oops.



The Word spells as well. Those trying to smack you into another place is insanely obnoxious.

I may be misremembering, but Planetouched are [Native] Outsiders. Their home plane is the Material, like all other "PC Approved" races. You'd have no special weakness to banishment effects than your party members. Adventure outside the Material and you are all vulnerable.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I may be misremembering, but Planetouched are [Native] Outsiders. Their home plane is the Material, like all other "PC Approved" races. You'd have no special weakness to banishment effects than your party members. Adventure outside the Material and you are all vulnerable.

Planetouched are. Lesser planetouches are supposed to be humanoid (extraplanar) but are humanoid (planetouched). As extraplanar entities they are vulnerable to any form of banishment effect.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Planetouched are. Lesser planetouches are supposed to be humanoid (extraplanar) but are humanoid (planetouched). As extraplanar entities they are vulnerable to any form of banishment effect.

So what is their homeplane?

[atemu1234]

So what is their homeplane?

The Demi-Elemental Plane of WhoTheHellCares
Conveniently one spellcasting away from the material.

[Caelestion]

Planetouched are. Lesser planetouches are supposed to be humanoid (extraplanar) but are humanoid (planetouched). As extraplanar entities they are vulnerable to any form of banishment effect.

Why do you keep saying that aasimar are extra-planar? Anything born on the Prime Material (i.e. almost all characters ever made outside of a Planescape campaign) is not extra-planar.

[Tiri]

Planetouched are. Lesser planetouches are supposed to be humanoid (extraplanar) but are humanoid (planetouched). As extraplanar entities they are vulnerable to any form of banishment effect.

They aren't extraplanar because they are native to the Material Plane. Whoever wrote the rules for lesser planetouched probably didn't know how nativity to planes worked, which is why the planetouched subtype does nothing.

[Malimar]

Planetouched are native outsiders.

This (rather off-topic for the current thread topic) discussion is about lesser planetouched. The only difference between planetouched and lesser planetouched (other than LA) is that the latter are not outsiders.

[Tiri]

This (rather off-topic for the current thread topic) discussion is about lesser planetouched. The only difference between planetouched and lesser planetouched (other than LA) is that the latter are not outsiders.

I now see that I misunderstood something, although I also think that it's not what you think I did. Thanks anyway, for bringing something to my attention that was already there but in the process making me bring something else to it that wasn't.

[Inevitability]

Homunculus

A brief note before we start: including a homunculus in a party may be problematic (even for something from this thread). This is because as long as they know the location of their creator (probably at least 7th-level), they have to stay within 1500 feet of them, and having their creator die slays them as well. I recommend having them get petrified and Rock to Mud'ed in your backstory.

On to the actual monster. Homunculi have two construct HD, which means getting a ton of immunities at a minimal cost (though being tiny means no bonus HP, boo). They suffer penalties to charisma and strength, have good wisdom and dexterity, and obviously lack a constitution score. Land speed is on the lower side, but a 50 ft. flight speed makes up for a lot of that.

Homunculi also have a bite attack that deals some damage and injects a poison capable of causing unconsciousness. Not bad, but with the DC being constitution-based it's not going to get very high.

As a final note: homunculi explicitly cannot speak, which may influence some character concepts.

Personally, I think a LA of +0 is fine here, though I'm obviously interested in the forum's opinion.

[Troacctid]

Definitely need a ⚠ for this one.

[Inevitability]

Definitely need a ⚠ for this one.

Because of the creator thing?

[remetagross]

Yes, for sure! Actually I would not give something more than a +0 to them. Their stat mods are unappealing for melee builds, and the loss of two caster levels make them a subpar choice for wizards. Skillmonkeys might appreciate the Tiny size, flight, and bonus to Dex, but lose between 20 and 30 skill points according to whether they have 6 or 8 per levels. But they cannot speak, so no social skills either.

[javcs]

Standard homunculi suck.

There's a fairly massive problem in the whole "how do you avoid or get around being tethered to your creator" and "if your creator dies, so do you" issues.
That pretty much requires a significant degree of handwavium in the backstory.

I would actually suggest including an involuntary form of extraplanar travel - so you don't know where your creator is. In addition to whatever you included to have your creator taken out of action effectively indefinitely without risk of them dying/getting killed. Arguably, a Flesh to Stone followed by Rock to Mud would require the homunculus to remain near the patch of mud, and possibly to attempt to resculpt the creator. Pretty much its whole motivation is going to be getting its creator back - and at that point, it basically requires a Wish or Miracle.


Not being able to talk doesn't help either.


I'd say a +0, or even a -0, with a DM caution, on the grounds that a homunculus is going to be incredibly difficult to integrate into a game.

[Thurbane]

Petrify creator, PaO statue into an amulet, wear the amulet/creator?

[GreatWyrmGold]

Planetouched are. Lesser planetouches are supposed to be humanoid (extraplanar) but are humanoid (planetouched). As extraplanar entities they are vulnerable to any form of banishment effect.

So...full planetouched are native to the Material Plane, but lesser planetouched aren't? That sounds backwards, somehow.

-snip-

With the creator stuff, the homunculus is basically unplayable. But then again, several creatures we've examined have problems in their basic forms (e.g, intelligence); I'm assuming we're finding a way around those niggling details.
Without the creator stuff, I'd say +0 is fine. Flight and construct traits for a couple of subpar HD? Seems like a fair enough trade-off.