The LA-assignment thread

[AMX]

Your creator is a lich, and you are the phylactery?
So slaying your creator requires destroying you first...

[Flickerdart]

Petrify creator, PaO statue into an amulet, wear the amulet/creator?

This would make a fun side quest plot - a wizard creates a homunculus, and the creature is so afraid of losing its master that it turns on him and morphs him into an amulet. The PCs have to solve the wizard's sudden disappearance.

[Karmea]

Just to clear up the lesser planetouched thing, they aren't extraplanar, but are susceptible to spells and effects that target outsiders (in addition to humanoids).

Kind of like, say, a baatezu wouldn't be extraplanar in Hell and so would be immune to banishment, but it would still be vulnerable to other stuff that targets outsiders.

[ExLibrisMortis]

With the creator stuff, the homunculus is basically unplayable. But then again, several creatures we've examined have problems in their basic forms (e.g, intelligence); I'm assuming we're finding a way around those niggling details.

This: We're not assuming that the creature is dropped into any random campaign without thinking. The assigned LA is a tool for DMs to evaluate the strength of a creature in a party in which the basic needs for functioning are met. We're not assigning trolls LA based on the possibility that they might be boiled in sulphuric acid every night, either*.

LA +0 is fine.



*For homunculi, the equivalent of "boiled in sulphuric acid" is rather a larger set of possibilities, but the same principle applies: as long as you're as playable as required for the game, the listed LA applies.

[Greg_S]

Would you let a homunculus take nonverbal spell and cast with it, or does not speaking mean no vocalizing ("communication" per the feat description) at all?

[Inevitability]

Would you let a homunculus take nonverbal spell and cast with it, or does not speaking mean no vocalizing ("communication" per the feat description) at all?

Being unable to speak doesn't mean being unable to make sounds. Any plain animal will show you that.

Besides, homunculi are already behind a spell level. Letting them use verbal spells is the least one could do.

[GreatWyrmGold]

We're not assigning trolls LA based on the possibility that they might be boiled in sulphuric acid every night, either.

...How many creatures could survive being boiled in sulphuric acid every night? Not that your conclusion is wrong, but the logic is shaky.

[ExLibrisMortis]

...How many creatures could survive being boiled in sulphuric acid every night? Not that your conclusion is wrong, but the logic is shaky.

You mean: the logic is sound, but the example is shaky. For reference, a war troll could survive being boiled in sulphuric acid every night, as could an acidborn creature with moderate fire resistance.

[Inevitability]

You mean: the logic is sound, but the example is shaky. For reference, a war troll could survive being boiled in sulphuric acid every night, as could an acidborn creature with moderate fire resistance.

Isn't acid the one thing that can damage a war troll?

Also, being able to resist 10d6 points of damage (which isn't fire damage, by the way), seems like it'd call for more than moderate resistance.

[Inevitability]

Howler

1. Be a howler.
2. Take levels in psychic warrior.
3. Manifest an augmented Compression to shrink by two sizes.
4. Put on a Ring of Reduction.
5. You are now a pandemonium chihuahua.

...

Oh right, the LA. First of all, howlers have 6 outsider HD, as well as the [Chaotic] and [Evil] subtypes (which makes them one of the weirder FoP entries). At 60 feet, their speed is considerable, and their physical stats are pretty good.

Howlers have two special abilities: their quills, and their maddening howl. The howling is flavorful but incredibly unlikely to influence play, whereas the quills are mostly weird for adding a variable number of natural attacks per round. The slight debuff accompanying quill hits is interesting, though it's a bit unclear what action it takes to remove them (I'm assuming standard, but it's not stated anywhere).

Considering all of this, I think howlers are fine at +0, maybe even -0. They provide people with a fine chassis, but are hampered by a lack of hands and optimizable special abilities. +0 for now, and we'll see what the forum thinks.

[Flickerdart]

As a [Chaotic, Evil] Outsider, does this thing technically fulfill the necessary criteria to be a tanar'ri and thus take all those juicy demon feats?

[Inevitability]

As a [Chaotic, Evil] Outsider, does this thing technically fulfill the necessary criteria to be a tanar'ri and thus take all those juicy demon feats?

The best definition for 'demon' seems to be 'whatever the developers listed under demon in the books', so no.

Demons or not, howlers are most definitely not tanar'ri as they lack the subtype.

[Thurbane]

If you play Soul Eater as every natural attack bestowing a negative level (which is hotly debated), I can see it being a tasty dip for any Howler character.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Isn't acid the one thing that can damage a war troll?

Oh, right, yes. Okay, an acidborn war troll, then. There are a number of outsiders with regeneration/notboilingsulphuricacid, as well (7 in MM1), some at fairly low CR, such as the chain devil (CR 6, ECL 8 on this thread).

[Caelestion]

If you play Soul Eater as every natural attack bestowing a negative level (which is hotly debated), I can see it being a tasty dip for any Howler character.

Even a pseudonatural troll can only use level drain once per round, so I'd say definitely not.

[Inevitability]

Even a pseudonatural troll can only use level drain once per round, so I'd say definitely not.

Doesn't that objection assume the game is inherently balanced in some way?

[Caelestion]

When balance isn't available, consistency is important.

[danielxcutter]

When balance isn't available, consistency is important.

In a world where Truenamers suck until they get Gate, at which point they're T0, I'd say that it's not.

[Caelestion]

Almost all casters are awesome game-breaking machines at 17th-level. I'd say that is totally consistent.

[GreatWyrmGold]

You mean: the logic is sound, but the example is shaky. For reference, a war troll could survive being boiled in sulphuric acid every night, as could an acidborn creature with moderate fire resistance.

That's not my point. Dying from being boiled in sulfuric acid is the default, so an inability to survive it isn't worth any LA one way or the other, regardless of if it happens nightly or not.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Dying from being boiled in sulfuric acid is the default, so an inability to survive it isn't worth any LA one way or the other, regardless of if it happens nightly or not.

Thank you, that was exactly my point.


Fun fact: According to the Monster Manual, "Small and Medium infernal creatures [...] sometimes use howlers as mounts [...]". Your DR/good at work, there. They also weigh around 2000 pounds, making them around eight times denser than similarly-sized tigers. Those quills must be solid obdurium.



Hydras next, that's going to be a fun one!

[GreatWyrmGold]

Thank you, that was exactly my point.

The original post about boiling trolls in acid appeared to be saying "We shouldn't decide LA by assuming that monsters' weaknesses would be exploited in the worst possible way," not "We shouldn't dock LA for weaknesses monsters share with everyone else".

Fun fact: According to the Monster Manual, "Small and Medium infernal creatures [...] sometimes use howlers as mounts [...]". Your DR/good at work, there.

It works well enough in the Blood Wars.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Howler is interesting: amazing physical stat mods, decent wis but terrible int and poor charisma. The loss to charisma actually matter. Large (long) is pretty awful TBH, but outsider HD are hot. +0 seems right, but I am wondering if there are paths to power that could justify a +1? Maybe an initiator to make powerful single bites combined with trying to stack the quill debuff.

[Inevitability]

Hydra

I don't think I need explain what hydras can do. They've got plenty of bites (all of them usable with a single standard action or charge), a lot of fast healing, and some reasonable stats. Hydras also all have an improved version of combat reflexes for free, which increases their number of AoOs per round to their head count (and possibly even more than that). The latter is especially interesting when taking into account their natural reach.

Enemies chopping off heads may seem like an obvious weakness, but it really isn't. At most, people are wasting an attack of theirs to maybe reduce your number of attacks per round by 1 for a few rounds: that's not worth it, action economy-wise. Even the smallest hydra PC will have 10 heads most of the time: killing it by stabbing is probably faster.

Note that five minutes of preparation and an ally with a knife let a hydra double its number of heads for the day. That means more attacks, more AoOs, perhaps even more breath weapons if we're talking one of the elemental variants.

Every extra hydra HD adds one head (effectively two), more fast healing, some natural armor, and occasionally a strength bonus.

+2 LA seems reasonable enough for the weaker varieties, but I'm not quite sure if HD advancement outlined above is as valuable as a PrC level or initiator dip. Then again: reducing any of the hydras' LA to +1 means the one directly before it becomes pretty much worse in every way.

For now, I'll keep hydras at +2 each (because why not do the reasonable thing for a change?). People who have opinions on these tricky beasts are free to share them.

Pyro- and Cryohydras

About equal in power (with pyrohydras stronger defensively and cryos offensively), these variants get an elemental subtype and a very potent breath weapon that deals dozens of d6s in damage. I'm going to assume it's a standard action to use (implied heavily, but not stated outright) and add +1 LA to each elemental hydra.

Of course, this assumes one doesn't go with the interpretation that a ten-headed hydra would breathe ten jets dealing 30d6 damage each, because things start getting even more bonkers then.

[danielxcutter]

Holy c*rp, a high-CR monster that doesn't have -0 LA?! That should be impossible! Well, at least I'm surprised that WoTC would have made one.

[ZamielVanWeber]

The hydra does have downsides, but they are hilariously easy to fix with items. +2/+1 seem fair, as well as the +1 for elemental. That breath weapon nukes things.

[Zancloufer]

Magical Beast is a solid HD and their head count and Fast Healing scales with racial HD. You think a Hydra Character would be viable just taking more Magical Beast HD? Each one grants +1 attack (or +2 if you start pre-chopping each day) and +1 Fast healing in addition to d10 HD, full BaB and two good saves.

I suppose the question is: Is a bonus feat worth +2 attacks, +2 fast healing and better Reflex save progression? If not one could argue that a Hydra 18 might be better than Fighter 20.

EDIT: A hilarious thing I noticed: It says you can attempt to SUNDER a Hydra's head. If you don't have the improved sunder feat attempting to cut off a Hydra head is suicide by RAW: You will eat literally Head count attacks if you attempt. It's "Weakness" isn't a weakness, it's a trap to double (triple?) it's DPS.

[Celestia]

Hydras are pretty awesome. I'd play one. I think +2 is pretty good. I'd still play it, but I don't think I'd do so at +3. The only problem is that the RHD are actually pretty good, so I'd be tempted to grab more. But then I can't ever buy off the LA (assuming that rule is in effect). I suppose I could go RHD 11/Class 9. But having 18 heads would be cool, too... Man, such a hard choice.

[Inevitability]

Hydras are pretty awesome. I'd play one. I think +2 is pretty good. I'd still play it, but I don't think I'd do so at +3. The only problem is that the RHD are actually pretty good, so I'd be tempted to grab more. But then I can't ever buy off the LA (assuming that rule is in effect). I suppose I could go RHD 11/Class 9. But having 18 heads would be cool, too... Man, such a hard choice.

Actually, hydras don't have an 'advancement' entry. Adding HD past 12th to get even more heads seems impossible.

Fortunately, having 18 heads can be accomplished as early as ECL 11: assuming of course a sunder-happy ally.

[khadgar567]

Can hydra go beholder mage cuz 10 heads is hinda good for may spell minigun