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  1. - Top - End - #841
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Basically, what you do is you aim 250 miles away, and in the 1/8 scenarios where you're off-target in the right direction, you have roughly a 1/8 chance of being within 10 miles of the destination, because the probabilities are all clustered around 250. That's about 1/64 altogether, which, for an at-will ability, probably takes maybe half an hour?
    Flagrant misuse of plane shift in this fashion can lead to a planar breach, as the space-time continuum is damaged more quickly than it can self-repair. In the interest of stability and preservation of the current order and planar arrangement, a squadron of Inevitables will be dispatched to halt this disturbance.
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  2. - Top - End - #842
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    Flagrant misuse of plane shift in this fashion can lead to a planar breach, as the space-time continuum is damaged more quickly than it can self-repair. In the interest of stability and preservation of the current order and planar arrangement, a squadron of Inevitables will be dispatched to halt this disturbance.
    Basically, this ability sucks because DM fiat. Which, again, isn't a real argument.

  3. - Top - End - #843
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by J-H View Post
    Flagrant misuse of plane shift in this fashion can lead to a planar breach, as the space-time continuum is damaged more quickly than it can self-repair.
    Precipitate complete breach is normally a 9th level spell with an xp cost and an expensive material cost, so being able to duplicate its effect would actually be a huge upside. Even the lesser precipitate breach is still no joke. Not to mention how much more powerful this rule makes, say, the Blink Shirt soulmeld—a single feat with no prerequisites lets you precipitate planar breaches at will? Seems pretty nuts to me!

    Of course, you just made all that stuff up, so none of it seems especially relevant.

  4. - Top - End - #844
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Basically, this ability sucks because DM fiat. Which, again, isn't a real argument.
    No, it's more that this ability isn't really sufficient to warrant any additional LA, because it is a rather time-consuming method to get moderately close to somewhere, with a bunch of potential hazards in the process.

    It's not at all like getting Greater Teleport at will. At best, meaning no hazardous off-target/intermediate plane arrival points, it's like an incantation of an unlimited range Teleport.

    Plus, since Plane Shift doesn't specifically state you land somewhere safe/unoccupied space or on a surface that can support you, the way Teleport does, it's possible that the inaccuracy isn't limited to a horizontal/map offset and that you will land somewhere that isn't safe to stand on (ie, mid-air, on/under water, etc.).



    Is it useful? Yes. Gamebreaking or overpowered? Not really - not at the level it is available. Remember, the standard Djinni has an LA of +2 right now, on top of 7 RHD for an ECL of 9. Teleport is a thing.
    Basically, you're trading a bunch of time, a lot of Knowledge(Geography) checks, and numerous potentially hazardous situations, to save a casting or a scroll of Teleport. Or, in other words, not enough to really matter.
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  5. - Top - End - #845
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jormengand View Post
    Rolling 1d500 is also possible, using (ciel(1d10/2)-1)*100+(1d10-1)*10+1d10.

    Incidentally, 1d360 for direction is also possible.
    I'm a fan of 1d360 (Indeed, sounds fair, you have only nearly 1/360 probability of getting closer than 5 miles), but i have a funier one:

    Ran on the calculator, multiply by 360 and use a protractor
    Last edited by Daedroth; 2016-12-21 at 06:49 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #846
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    "Sketch out a map of the area and throw darts" would be a fun solution, even if it favors out-of-game skill.
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  7. - Top - End - #847
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    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Plus, since Plane Shift doesn't specifically state you land somewhere safe/unoccupied space or on a surface that can support you, the way Teleport does, it's possible that the inaccuracy isn't limited to a horizontal/map offset and that you will land somewhere that isn't safe to stand on (ie, mid-air, on/under water, etc.).
    If Plane Shift can land you above solid surfaces than the spell cannot be used to take you back to the material since odds are it will land you so high up gravity will not pull you toward the surface at any relevant speed.



    Is it useful? Yes. Gamebreaking or overpowered? Not really - not at the level it is available. Remember, the standard Djinni has an LA of +2 right now, on top of 7 RHD for an ECL of 9. Teleport is a thing.
    Basically, you're trading a bunch of time, a lot of Knowledge(Geography) checks, and numerous potentially hazardous situations, to save a casting or a scroll of Teleport. Or, in other words, not enough to really matter.
    It also goes to efreeti and janni, so figuring out how useful it is now will be valuable in the future.

  8. - Top - End - #848
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    Genie, Efreeti


    All this debate around the djinn is making me efreet of judging this thing! I'll show myself out.

    10 outsider RHD: not a bad start. Improved Initiative as a bonus feat (looking back, djinn have it too). Good stats all around: intelligence and dexterity are inferior to the djinn's but strength is much higher. Large size with reach, as well as two natural slam attacks that'll probably never get used. The Fire subtype is a marginal increase in power, telepathy has already been discussed, and the fly speed is good (if a little slow).

    More interesting: the efreeti's supernatural powers. Heat is a little ambiguous whether its damage applies to weapon attacks: if it does, that's great, if it doesn't a weapon is still better.

    Change Size is mostly useful for use on self. Any character that can benefit from Enlarge Person will probably have gotten a ring or permanent spell by now, but any melee character benefits from becoming Huge twice per day. Of course, it's also useful as a debuff, but the low save DC and limited targets discourage that.

    Plane Shift has been discussed to death. My opinion remains that it's useful, but not game-breaking.

    Change Shape is okay. Amongst all those humanoids and giants, there's bound to be one or two interesting forms, and it'll stop angry mobs from lynching you. Disguise is technically an efreet class skill; put points in it!

    Finally, the SLA's. The at-wills (Detect Magic, Produce Flame, Pyrotechnics and a sole Scorching Ray) are pretty meh, and the same goes for 3/day Invisibility. Wall of Fire is more interesting, but nothing great. Gaseous Form (1/day) isn't too impressive.

    After all these lackluster SLA's, suddenly there's two quite good ones. Permanent Image (1/day) is permanent (duh) and creates an incredibly convincing illusion. What's more; it's SLA-ness removes the usual 100 gp cost.

    Finally, Wish, which we've all talked much about. The Efreeti gets it thrice per day, to nongenies only. Guess why it got the asterisk?

    Compared to the noble djinni, the efreeti has superior melee ability, worse speed, worse SLA's, and about equal special abilities. For now, I'll assign them +1*, which should balance things out.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2018-09-04 at 11:48 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #849
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    wink Re: The LA-assignment thread

    More interesting: the efreeti's supernatural powers. Heat is a little ambiguous whether its damage applies to weapon attacks: if it does, that's great, if it doesn't a weapon is still better.
    I don't see where its ambiguous, it says melee attacks and its shown in the statblock, i don't see any reason at all to say that it doesn't apply to weapon attacks besides prejudice or intuition.

  10. - Top - End - #850
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    Actually, I think the Efreet has a better Wish granting mechanism. It's certainly far less complicated and easier to use on allies without shenanigans.
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  11. - Top - End - #851
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    The heat ability is gonna get weirder as time goes on. I think it's different for efreet, magmins, and salamanders. Sometimes it does more damage, sometimes less. Sometimes it's conducted by metal weapons, sometimes it's not. Also the save DCs and what is affected by the heat changes too.

    This ability certainly makes the reader sweat.
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  12. - Top - End - #852
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    Quote Originally Posted by javcs View Post
    Actually, I think the Efreet has a better Wish granting mechanism. It's certainly far less complicated and easier to use on allies without shenanigans.
    I know: you've been arguing that for two pages. Point is that 80% of your rationale is based on a very specific reading of the abilities' text, combined with a fair amount of houserules.

    Unless someone else sharing your vision shows up, it's not going to affect the LA.

    Quote Originally Posted by Daedroth View Post
    I don't see where its ambiguous, it says melee attacks and its shown in the statblock, i don't see any reason at all to say that it doesn't apply to weapon attacks besides prejudice or intuition.
    Well, looking at some other creatures with Heat (Ex), I read the following.

    A salamander generates so much heat that its mere touch deals additional fire damage. Salamanders’ metallic weapons also conduct this heat.
    An azer’s body is intensely hot, so its unarmed attacks deal extra fire damage. Its metallic weapons also conduct this heat.
    The Heat ability seems to explicitly call out when its possessor's melee weapons are also affected.

    In addition, one could easily consider the 'it' in the efreeti's ability to refer to 'its red-hot body', in which case melee weapons probably don't count.

    As you can see, there's clearly some level of ambiguity.
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  13. - Top - End - #853
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Efreet are another one that should get a ⚠, of course. XP-free wishes should probably not be allowed in any game, as they singlehandedly break, well, everything, right?

    Include the xp and material component as normal and I think they are acceptable.

  14. - Top - End - #854
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Troacctid View Post
    Efreet are another one that should get a ⚠, of course. XP-free wishes should probably not be allowed in any game, as they singlehandedly break, well, everything, right?

    Include the xp and material component as normal and I think they are acceptable.
    That reminds me: we still haven't decided on an 'exercise caution' symbol. ⚠ is of course a valid option, but I wonder if there's anything that works for all viewers?
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  15. - Top - End - #855
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    You could just use a + sign. LA 5+ tells you "the LA is five, but there's more", and to an extent, putting more LA does mitigate the issue somewhat (in the case of noble djinni, the extra LA may be a rather high +6 (total +11), but that's still +). Exclamation marks are also good. Most anything will do, really.


    Edit: If you want to get busy, add a tier to each creature. For example, solars are compared to tier 1. Efreeti are compared to tier 0. Animated objects are compared to tier 5. And so on, and so forth.
    Last edited by ExLibrisMortis; 2016-12-22 at 03:15 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #856
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    +!
    Perhaps? A straight + could be misinterpreted as a "on the strong side for this ECL" marker.
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  17. - Top - End - #857
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    You could replace their + with a ~, so like the efreeti would be a ~5, solar would be ~3, etc.

  18. - Top - End - #858
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    My first inclination was +7, a 17th level wizard should be casting at least 2 9th level spells per day and I assume that most the time the wishes would be replicating another spell so it wouldn't be to terribly out of line. They are definitely better than the noble Djinni who should be in the + 4-5 range, and the wishes are easier to use no trying to rules lawyer them through the defeat and bind clause. However upon further reflection I think Efreeti should be a +6 the 3 a day wish is really powerful, but I think it would be mitigated by the lack of hd. Blasphemy and it's cousins are going to hammer you, and you can be turned, or worse rebuked by clerics with water domain.

    Also why is the creature in the picture who is most likely made of fire from the plane that is made of fire using a wooden shield? that seams sub-optimal.
    Last edited by Hurnn; 2016-12-22 at 05:19 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #859
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hurnn View Post
    My first inclination was +7, a 17th level wizard should be casting at least 2 9th level spells per day and I assume that most the time the wishes would be replicating another spell so it wouldn't be to terribly out of line. They are definitely better than the noble Djinni who should be in the + 4-5 range, and the wishes are easier to use no trying to rules lawyer them through the defeat and bind clause. However upon further reflection I think Efreeti should be a +6 the 3 a day wish is really powerful, but I think it would be mitigated by the lack of hd. Blasphemy and it's cousins are going to hammer you, and you can be turned, or worse rebuked by clerics with water domain.

    Also why is the creature in the picture who is most likely made of fire from the plane that is made of fire using a wooden shield? that seams sub-optimal.
    The Efreet's Wish is 1/day up to 3 Wishes to one other person (who must be a non-genie). All at once (more or less), not spread throughout the day the way that the Wizard can. Still, it is a straightforward enough ability. The Efreet needs an allied nongenie to really benefit, but that's relatively easy to work around.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    That reminds me: we still haven't decided on an 'exercise caution' symbol. ⚠ is of course a valid option, but I wonder if there's anything that works for all viewers?
    There's the tried and true (see text).
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  21. - Top - End - #861
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    How about an asterisk after the value?

    So LA +5 would become LA +5*.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurnn View Post
    Also why is the creature in the picture who is most likely made of fire from the plane that is made of fire using a wooden shield? that seams sub-optimal.
    It's magic. Fireproofing magic, to be specific.
    Last edited by Inevitability; 2016-12-23 at 02:53 AM.
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  22. - Top - End - #862
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    I love this thread, and I can't wait until you get to the Pixie.
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hurnn View Post
    Also why is the creature in the picture who is most likely made of fire from the plane that is made of fire using a wooden shield? that seams sub-optimal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Dire_Stirge View Post
    It's magic. Fireproofing magic, to be specific.
    Two things: 1) Don't go all Jose Quesada on us about magic, and 2) That makes no fricking sense. That'd be like a water elemental with the power to make things dry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
    Two things: 1) Don't go all Jose Quesada on us about magic, and 2) That makes no fricking sense. That'd be like a water elemental with the power to make things dry.
    Makes sense to me. If the purpose of a water elemental is to make things wet and everything is already wet, then what is the water elemental's reason for existing? So, instead of facing its existential dread, it makes everything dry so that it can continue going around making things wet.
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  25. - Top - End - #865
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Efreet don't use wooden shields. Actually, they don't carry shields at all. They're not even proficient with them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by digiman619 View Post
    Two things: 1) Don't go all Jose Quesada on us about magic, and 2) That makes no fricking sense. That'd be like a water elemental with the power to make things dry.
    Classic genie noncombat attire? Silks and other light/sheer fabrics. They need to protect their clothing from catching on fire if nothing else.
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  27. - Top - End - #867
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Genie, Janni


    The jann: weakest of the genies and not associated with a particular element. Despite being only one HD below the djinn, the jann's CR is half theirs. Does this affect their LA? Keep reading!

    Jann share a lot of traits with the other genies: good stats (they even surpass efreeti in one), a fly speed (albeit a pretty slow one), free Improved Initiative, telepathy, and Plane Shift (no complaints here). Just like efreeti, they can change someone's size, though once more they're probably the best target for that.

    SLA's vary greatly in use. Invisibility is nice (Move Silently is on their skill list!) but Speak With Animals is long outdated. Create Food and Water isn't that great (though note that jann do need to eat). Ethereal Jaunt for an hour per day, however, is just great.

    Finally, there's the weird 'Elemental Endurance', which makes jann take damage for spending too much time away from the material plane. Then again; a few charges from a wand of lesser vigor take care of most of it, assuming long-term missions to the elemental planes are even a thing in your campaign.

    So what LA to give? Plane Shift is something I'm not sure should be available at this low a level: even jaunters don't have it yet. Combined with a pretty good chassis and some general open tricks, I think +1 LA is warranted here.
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  28. - Top - End - #868
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Ghost


    Happy holidays, everyone! Get it? Ghost of Christmas?

    Ghosts are the third template to be assigned a LA, and the first not to be intended for summonable foddler. It's applicable to a wide range of creatures, as long as they're more charismatic than your average weasel. Obviously, the creature becomes undead. Furthermore, it turns incorporeal and can fly.

    Ghosts have some hefty turn resistance, which is good as they'll be a few HD behind their party members. They get a reasonable charisma bonus, as well as a big boost to various skills. In addition, ghosts can rejuvenate after death, though the lowered HD will make reliably succeeding on the level check hard (not to mention waiting 2d4 days is kind of annoying).

    Manifestation is something all ghosts have. I maintain that the ethereal-incorporeal-material rules used by ghosts are clunky and inelegant, but getting to move from the ethereal to the material plane at-will is awesome. Of note is the fact that when manifesting you still exist on the ethereal plane; there have to be ways to abuse that.

    More interesting are the special abilities; ghosts can pick and choose from them, which is rare amongst templates. A few sourcebooks even present additional options!

    Generally, the abilities are decent but not overpowering, though Malevolence is awesome and Chill Ray is a great combination of debuffing and damaging. Telekinesis at-will also has something going for it, of course.

    I think I'll go with +3 LA for now, though I'm leaning towards +4. If one allows both the cold immunity and spell resistance suggested by Frostburn, I think +4 may be more appropriate.

    Waiting for feedback!
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  29. - Top - End - #869
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    No feedback on ghosts, but I would like to suggest collapsing the dragons in the index. There are waaaaaaay too many of them to get separate lines. Elementals may also need some collapsing as well, but not as badly. Shouldn't be too big of a problem seeing as they are mostly -0s.

    Edit: I see what you did with Very Old Copper Dragons...
    Last edited by zergling.exe; 2016-12-25 at 04:05 AM.
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    Neutral Evil is Evil untainted by concern over Law or Chaos. It is Evil in its purest form, much like NG is Good in its purest form, LN is Law in its purest form, and CN is murderhoboing in its purest form.


  30. - Top - End - #870
    Titan in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The LA-assignment thread

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    No feedback on ghosts, but I would like to suggest collapsing the dragons in the index. There are waaaaaaay too many of them to get separate lines. Elementals may also need some collapsing as well, but not as badly. Shouldn't be too big of a problem seeing as they are mostly -0s.
    Not a bad idea.

    Quote Originally Posted by zergling.exe View Post
    Edit: I see what you did with Very Old Copper Dragons...
    TWO MONTHS. TWO MONTHS I'VE WAITED.
    Creator of the LA-assignment thread.

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