The LA-assignment thread

[Thurbane]

There's a fey flavoured feat which gives allows you to gain extra hitpoint from charisma at first level yes. For FMI, does it say you have to ever refresh it? I recall the fluff of the feat suggesting that, but I don't think the mechanics ever required you to refresh, as long as you were only using one benefit (and the other options the feat offered were not nearly as powerful).

Feat text as follows:

Granted bonuses last until the next time you perform the Faerie Mysteries or until 24 hours have elapsed.

[almondsAndRain]

That is not the feat text. From the magazine it was published in:

Benefits: You and a partner with the Faeries Mysteries Initiate feat practice a 15-minute regimen of cultural rituals that grant you special bonuses on skill checks or combat rolls. You choose which bonus you'd prefer before conducting this exercise, modifying your regimen slightly to achieve the desired effect. Both practitioners must agree upon the rite to be performed and receive the same bonus. Granted effects last until the next time you perform the Faerie Mysteries.

[khadgar567]

That is not the feat text. From the magazine it was published in:

And they say vigilantes companion of lonely talent is bad here we have its grand grandpa

[Hurnn]

Regardless I don't think a feat that someone may or may not take should determine the LA of a creature, so can we call it la 2 and move along?

[Inevitability]

Chain Devil

Apparently, chain devils were important enough to get their own picture. I don't mind: they're one of my favorite kinds of devil. Interestingly, they're not Baatezu.

What are their racial traits? First of all, 8 outsider HD. Chain devils are slow by diabolic standards, with only 30 feet movement. Their stats aren't very impressive: even the lower-ranking bearded devils get (slightly) better ability scores. They're merely medium-sized, but at least they get reach with their natural weapons.

Chain devils have a few unique abilities. Unnerving gaze isn't that great (at least it takes no action), but Dancing Chains is a flavorful way to add a few attacks to your repertoire. Depending on whether they inherit all of your attack boosters (precision damage, magical buffs), this is either decent or absolutely wonderful.

Another notable trait is regeneration. It's only overcome by silvered or good-aligned sources of damage: things your average monster probably won't have.

All in all, I don't think chain devils deserve a LA. While they undeniably possess defensive strength, their damage output is just too low. Compare a chain devil with 12 rogue levels (+6d6 sneak attack damage) who gets six attacks per round to a 20th-level rogue who gets four attacks with +10d6 points of damage on each. And that's assuming the chain devil can add precision damage to his dancing chains which, as said before, is debatable.

+0 LA, but anyone is welcome to challenge this.

[Thurbane]

That is not the feat text. From the magazine it was published in:

Sorry to digress back to previous topic, but thanks for the correction.

Sidenote: it really annoys me when web sources change or add to original text from an existing source and don't note so.

[Hurnn]

0 seems good it's pretty bland for its hit dice.

[Inevitability]

Erinyes

It's kind of funny that the erinyes' description explicitly says they appear as both genders, yet there's only a handful of images depicting male erinyes. Even WotC themselves don't seem to have made any.

Erinyes aren't very different from your standard Baatezu. Average land speed, good fly speed, natural armor, energy immunities... it's all been seen before. Medium size is a pity on a creature that's going to use weapons, but your stats (both physically and mentally) somewhat make up for it.

Spell-likes are decent. Charm Monster at-will is good in social situations, Greater Teleport is expected, and Unholy Blight can function both as a mass debuffer or a minion sweep. Minor Image is quite underwhelming, though.

An erinyes's summoning ability is interesting in that it doesn't allow the devil to summon a being of its own kind: only the weaker lemures and bearded devils. At least your chances are better than the usual 35%.

Then there's permanent True Seeing (very nice) and Entangle. Sadly, the latter is not as good as the spell of its name. Spending an action on something that's barely stronger than a cheap alchemical item isn't something one should do at this level.

Erinyes also get Dodge and Mobility as bonus feats, which will mostly be useful for prerequisites. Elusive Target is a notable feat that gets very attractive without the feat tax.

So, what's the final LA? There aren't any fiends in the ECL 9-10 ratio to compare them with, but I'd give erinyes +1 LA. They lack the large size and superior spell-likes other fiends start to get at this level, but are nonetheless too strong for +0 LA.

[khadgar567]

Erinyes

It's kind of funny that the erinyes' description explicitly says they appear as both genders, yet there's only a handful of images depicting male erinyes. Even WotC themselves don't seem to have made any.

Erinyes aren't very different from your standard Baatezu. Average land speed, good fly speed, natural armor, energy immunities... it's all been seen before. Medium size is a pity on a creature that's going to use weapons, but your stats (both physically and mentally) somewhat make up for it.

Spell-likes are decent. Charm Monster at-will is good in social situations, Greater Teleport is expected, and Unholy Blight can function both as a mass debuffer or a minion sweep. Minor Image is quite underwhelming, though.

An erinyes's summoning ability is interesting in that it doesn't allow the devil to summon a being of its own kind: only the weaker lemures and bearded devils. At least your chances are better than the usual 35%.

Then there's permanent True Seeing (very nice) and Entangle. Sadly, the latter is not as good as the spell of its name. Spending an action on something that's barely stronger than a cheap alchemical item isn't something one should do at this level.

Erinyes also get Dodge and Mobility as bonus feats, which will mostly be useful for prerequisites. Elusive Target is a notable feat that gets very attractive without the feat tax.

So, what's the final LA? There aren't any fiends in the ECL 9-10 ratio to compare them with, but I'd give erinyes +1 LA. They lack the large size and superior spell-likes other fiends start to get at this level, but are nonetheless too strong for +0 LA.

whats the diffrence between ernies and succubus cr vise

[Flickerdart]

whats the diffrence between ernies and succubus cr vise

Did you really need to quote that entire post, with the image, in order to ask a one-sentence question, to which the answer is a one-digit number you can look up anywhere?

1. The difference is 1.

[khadgar567]

what level, cr or divine shenanigan?

[AuraTwilight]

CR, since that's what you asked about. You can look this stuff up yourself, man.

[Inevitability]

what level, cr or divine shenanigan?

I'm honestly not certain what you want to know, but the following handy table should hopefully answer any question you may have been trying to ask:

	Succubus	Erinyes
CR	7	8
ECL	8	10
LA	+2	+1
Divine Shenanigan	Wait what.	Seriously, what.

[khadgar567]

that is just info need thanks stirge

[Metahuman1]

Yeah, LA 1 seems a good fit for them. =)

[Hurnn]

1 is a very reasonable LA for this one.

[Inevitability]

Hellcat

Apparently devils, the schemers and corruptors of ancient legend, now look like evil glowing lions. How the mighty have fallen.

Hellcats are... not so great. They lack many of the devils' racial traits and have no spell-like abilities (or summoning ability) at all. They lack reach despite being Large and can't wield weapons without giving up their strongest natural attack.

They're not completely horrible, though. The ability scores are quite good, and pounce is something all melee builds need. Rake attacks are icing.

Finally, there's Invisibility in Light, a strange ability. In light it makes you invisible, in shadows or darkness you can be seen, then in magical darkness you're invisible again. I suppose extraordinary permanent invisibility is worth something, but countering it won't be hard.

All in all, hellcats are a decent option for someone who wants to play a big monster with a neat trick. Are they worth +1 LA, though? Probably not.

Current LA is +0.

[Thurbane]

I actually find myself in agreement with LA +0 here. Being non-humanoid makes using a lot of vital gear difficult if not outright impossible. It's special abilities and stat adjustments are good, but weight up against 8 RHD, LA +0 sounds reasonable.

As a martial adept, the highest level maneuvers you'd be getting by ECL 20 are 8ths (assuming the DM lets RHD count towards initiator level), and you don't really have the stats or levels to spare being a spellcaster. With your lack of opposable thumbs you really aren't cut out to be a skillmonkey, either. An ubercharger is probably the best build you could hope for with this creature.

[LordOfCain]

Tis true The Mighty Fall. (In love)

[Inevitability]

Horned Devil

Not to be confused with these.

I'm not sure where to start here. Great stats all around, high AC, Large size, four natural weapons, fly speed... what's not to love?

The special abilities range from decent to excellent. Infernal Wound and Fear Aura are so-so, but Stun adds a strength-based save-or-lose to most of your attacks (having to use a spiked chain isn't much of a drawback). Regeneration, as has been said before, makes it nearly impossible to kill you through damage: how often are monsters carrying good-aligned silver weapons?

All this is without getting into the spell-like abilities. Dispel Good and Chaos are decent if you're fighting such creatures (which, given you're a devil, is probably often). The same goes for Magic Circle Against Good. Greater Teleport is still useful (though less so with other party members having access too), and Persistent Image is the next step up from earlier illusions. Fireball and Lightning Bolt, though... I'd pretend you don't have them.

It should be clear that a horned devil is a more-than-capable monster that can serve both as ubercharger and tripper. +2 LA is probably the best option here, but I'm slightly inclined towards +3 as well.

[Metahuman1]

Stick to +2. It's a good +2, but it flat just does not warrant +3.

[Thurbane]

Just curious - does there come a point where a creatures RHD are so high there is a flat +2 cap regardless of how good it's abilities are? Is there a sense that RHD are enough of an impediment as is?

[Metahuman1]

Just me musing, but the impression I'm getting is that racial hit dice aren't really treated that way with outsider hit dice, since the outsider hit dice aren't terrible.


Other races don't really get that luxury so far that I've observed.

[Inevitability]

Just curious - does there come a point where a creatures RHD are so high there is a flat +2 cap regardless of how good it's abilities are? Is there a sense that RHD are enough of an impediment as is?

I don't think so. It obviously is unlikely I'll come across a monster with high RHD of a bad type yet powerful enough abilities to warrant a high LA, but even if I did I don't have a cap for LA. I can't really think of a point where even the most powerful abilities wouldn't increase a monster's ECL.


Anyway, devils all have tasty outsider RHD, so it's unlikely to come up for the next few weeks anyway.

[Flickerdart]

We've already seen that there's not really a cap - despite having 14 hit dice, Planetars have a whopping +5 LA. Trumpet Archons have 12 HD and +4 LA. And Beholders (not an Outsider!) have 11 RHD and +4 LA.

[Thurbane]

We've already seen that there's not really a cap - despite having 14 hit dice, Planetars have a whopping +5 LA. Trumpet Archons have 12 HD and +4 LA. And Beholders (not an Outsider!) have 11 RHD and +4 LA.

I had missed those earlier examples. Thanks.

[Hurnn]

I'm torn he would be a really really good 2, but I think 3 might be fair. You did mention his high base ac but with minimal effort it can be insane AC like in the mid 40's maybe even in the 50's if you tried hard. Either way between that and DR you would be all but invulnerable to anything not trying to kill you with Spells or magical abilities of some type.

[Inevitability]

I'm torn he would be a really really good 2, but I think 3 might be fair. You did mention his high base ac but with minimal effort it can be insane AC like in the mid 40's maybe even in the 50's if you tried hard. Either way between that and DR you would be all but invulnerable to anything not trying to kill you with Spells or magical abilities of some type.

You raise some good points: AC can be boosted very high with the right choices.

However, a normal human fighter can already boost his AC into the 40's. A caster can reach the 50's or 60's with ease.

Not to mention that AC isn't a way to contribute to fights in itself. Attacks won't be directed at you once monsters figure out you're impossible to hit, so any damage you may avoid will now be taken by other party members. You'd have to invest additional resources in making foes attack you specifically.

Finally, at high levels, where Horned Devils will get played, almost all monsters will have a breath weapon, or SLA's, or a way to target touch AC.

[Inevitability]

Ice Devil

D&D logic: cold is stronger against ice devils than fire. Go ahead, look it up.

Ice devils are only slightly below horned devils in the infernal hierarchy, with 14 RHD. Their ability scores are mostly inferior to horned devils, with the exception of intelligence and wisdom: perhaps the two least interesting scores to your average devil. They've got four natural attacks, but two of them you can't use with a weapon. To make up for this, their tail attacks have a chance of Slowing their target.

I know I'm sounding predictable here, but their other abilities are more of the same. Energy immunities, DR, regeneration, SR, telepathy... Almost everywhere, these abilities are slightly inferior to a horned devil's. A notable exception is their fear aura, which actually has twice the range of a horned devil's.

The SLA's are reasonable. Cone of Cold is solid blasting, even at this level, Fly you'd have to get somewhere any way, and Greater Teleport is still useful. Persistent Image, Unholy Aura and Wall of Ice should have uses. Only Ice Storm will probably never see use.

I'd be lying if I didn't have a LA in mind all this time. The Ice Devil seems to be a 'horned devil, but weaker' in nearly all aspects, and the ECL should reflect this. +2 for now, with an option on +3 (though I can't see that happening without the horned devil getting a higher LA as well).

[Inevitability]

Imp

After all those high-powered devils, it's nice to review a weaker kind for a change, don't you think?

As most people here know, imps are so overwhelmingly similar to quasits that I'm already having trouble justifying a different LA. Then again, I may just get surprised by an overseen ability.

The imp has slightly better strength and considerably better charisma than its demonic equivalent, as well as superior NA. The quasit has better natural attacks, but that advantage disappears as soon as both of its claws are occupied. The slightly higher fire resistance is notable, but not enough to make up for the difference.

SLA's are almost equal, with the imp getting Suggestion instead of Cause Fear. It should be obvious this ability is significantly more useful, especially as foes start getting more HD. Alternate forms seem about equal.

To summarize: the imp is definitely stronger than the quasit. However, this power difference is not large enough to warrant another point of LA. While this may make imp PC's more attractive than quasit ones, there's still reasons to play the latter.