The LA-assignment thread

[Amidus Drexel]

I think that the only dragons that you would need to analize if they are LA-worthy be the red, gold and silver ones.

I have a feeling the only one that might get any LA whatsoever would be the wyrmling white.

[Inevitability]

I think that the only dragons that you would need to analize if they are LA-worthy be the red, gold and silver ones.

Not sure: dragon tend to get HD faster than power. I think Amidus's remark may be more accurate.

We'll see when it comes to it.

[Zaydos]

Having played a wyrmling red (actually 1 level into very young) with +1 LA they're about on par with equal optimization Tier 4s, you have better skills than anybody but the rogue, have the same to hit as a raging barbarian, with better AC (mithral chainshirt versus breastplate but then you get +6) but pounce + PA can make you sad (if they go full ubercharger and terrain isn't a factor they'll show you up), have flight and ranged attacks but so does DFA who beats with your 11 damage at 14 damage per round (yours is a larger area though), the best saves, but you end up a jack of all trades able to contribute in any situation, but rarely the very best at it (i.e. Tier 4). Meanwhile Crusader is just better in combat and able to out tank you despite lower hit points and strength (maneuvers are good), and a well built focused conjurer will make you cry if they prepare decent spells. Did keep up with the arcane hierophant, but there was a matter of player skill there (they didn't wild shape for instance, or buff their pet effectively).

Wyrm of War (either version) might have helped out a lot, but didn't have Dragons of Eberron at the time. I mean +2 feats is nice. Still probably would have been behind the crusader, and certainly would have been laughed off by the wizard once I went back over his spell list (I may have been playing 3 chars to test them before picking one for the campaign... I went with the wizard because they were the only one able to easily handle EL 13 encounters at 9th level and the DM asked me to make sure I could single handedly handle a TPK just in case they threw something too strong at us).

Honestly I think Brass Wyrmling (Sleep breath) is the one most likely to need LA (last time I ran a game with one of them it ended up the strongest party member but we had a silver dragon, a homebrew class that was admittedly better than sneak attack fighter, and... I forget what the fourth party member was). Silver gets Paralysis Breath but that's 7 HD instead of 4. White gets burrow and flight earlier than other characters but they can't really do much with it so it ends up as 'that's nice', I guess burrow they can pull off hiding pretty well but I'd still doubt they could stand up to a tier 3 character.

[khadgar567]

Having played a wyrmling red (actually 1 level into very young) with +1 LA they're about on par with equal optimization Tier 4s, you have better skills than anybody but the rogue, have the same to hit as a raging barbarian, with better AC (mithral chainshirt versus breastplate but then you get +6) but pounce + PA can make you sad (if they go full ubercharger and terrain isn't a factor they'll show you up), have flight and ranged attacks but so does DFA who beats with your 11 damage at 14 damage per round (yours is a larger area though), the best saves, but you end up a jack of all trades able to contribute in any situation, but rarely the very best at it (i.e. Tier 4). Meanwhile Crusader is just better in combat and able to out tank you despite lower hit points and strength (maneuvers are good), and a well built focused conjurer will make you cry if they prepare decent spells. Did keep up with the arcane hierophant, but there was a matter of player skill there (they didn't wild shape for instance, or buff their pet effectively).

Wyrm of War (either version) might have helped out a lot, but didn't have Dragons of Eberron at the time. I mean +2 feats is nice. Still probably would have been behind the crusader, and certainly would have been laughed off by the wizard once I went back over his spell list (I may have been playing 3 chars to test them before picking one for the campaign... I went with the wizard because they were the only one able to easily handle EL 13 encounters at 9th level and the DM asked me to make sure I could single handedly handle a TPK just in case they threw something too strong at us).

Honestly I think Brass Wyrmling (Sleep breath) is the one most likely to need LA (last time I ran a game with one of them it ended up the strongest party member but we had a silver dragon, a homebrew class that was admittedly better than sneak attack fighter, and... I forget what the fourth party member was). Silver gets Paralysis Breath but that's 7 HD instead of 4. White gets burrow and flight earlier than other characters but they can't really do much with it so it ends up as 'that's nice', I guess burrow they can pull off hiding pretty well but I'd still doubt they could stand up to a tier 3 character.

small question zaydos is your enyo dragon around the same level with regular dragons

[Zaydos]

small question zaydos is your enyo dragon around the same level with regular dragons

Not really the thread for that question, but... they have the same plethora of benefits, but come online at 2 hit dice, however they have the mixed benefit of diminutive size. They are very much not intended for PCs and I'd have to acid test them first, but they're stronger than white wyrmlings for PC use (+1/2 Wis to AC and Init, 1 less hit die, able to wield weapons, +2/+0/+2/-2/+2/-2 means much better ability mods than white's +0/+0/+2/-4/+0/-4, the loss of reach really hurts though) so not really (note that I threw darts into gave them a higher CR than white dragons across most age categories despite not having as many hit dice).

And probably best to let the thread get back to its regularly scheduled discussions instead of continuing this tangent further.

[Inevitability]

Green dragon

Why do these dragon pictures include people for scale, anyway? When the same creature can be anywhere between dog- and whale-sized, it seems kind of pointless.

Anyway, green dragons: breath weapon is corrosive vapor, which seems redundant with black: I'm glad they changed it to poison gas in later editions. Special movement is a decent swim speed, and its extra skills are Bluff, Hide and Move Silently. The first is decent, the latter two would be better if green wyrmlings were Tiny: as it is now it's usefulness is reduced.

Wyrmling

Surprise surprise, these things suck. 2d6 acid damage isn't cutting it at ECL 5, and neither are the natural attacks. -0 LA.

Very Young

Size increase, breath weapon damage increase... I've seen it before, and it's still weak. -0.

Young

I could remove half the RHD and this would still be underwhelming. I'm not even kidding.

Juvenile

Let's take a moment to reflect on what else 14 levels could've gotten you. 7th-level spells or maneuvers, 8d6 sneak attack, a bunch of opened chakras... Instead there's 1st-level sorcerer casting, a few ability bonuses, and poor flight.

Young Adult

DR sucks, yadda yadda yadda.

Adult

At this level, 3/day Suggestion is gained. Wizards are casting Dominate Monster, clerics are casting Monstrous Thrall, even fighters have better mind-affecting abilities available than dragons do by now.

Mature Adult

Here be suboptimal dragons!

Old

I dare you to come up with at least one epic challenge that can be solved with Plant Growth.

Very Old

Seriously reconsidering the idea of doing all dragons right now. Maybe should I just rate the first three, then briefly mention that all past there is too bad for a LA?

Ancient

Congrats on being gargantuan, and it only took 32 levels! It's not like there's ways to do it faster, are there?

Wyrm

If I didn't dislike dragons before, I did now.

Great Wyrm

When a ranger gets a certain spell before you do, be worried.
When a ranger gets a certain spell at half your ECL, be very worried.
When a ranger gets a certain spell at one-third of your ECL... run.

Spoiler

Show

I find it very amusing how conversation is now about what dragons won't get a -0 LA.

[khadgar567]

I think smaug rolling in his tomb right now three dragons with 0 LA I think we need to make fixing dragon treat on homebrew sub forum if we want this things to worth their actual LA

[Daedroth]

I think smaug rolling in his tomb right now three dragons with 0 LA I think we need to make fixing dragon treat on homebrew sub forum if we want this things to worth their actual LA

A partial gestalt fix for every LA+0 not worth his RHD here? (For sanity sake, lets keep it to RHD<21)

List, for now: A lot of Animated objects, Arrowhawk adult and elder, attach, Abyssal Greater Basilisk, ¿Belker?, ¿Bugbear?, ¿Bodak?, ¿Chaos Beast?, ¿Chuul?, Delver, ¿Derro?, Digester, Dinosaurs, Most Dire Animals, Destrachan, Lemure, Digester, Dragons and Displacer Beast Pack Lord.

[khadgar567]

A partial gestalt fix for every LA+0 not worth his RHD here? (For sanity sake, lets keep it to RHD<21)

List, for now: A lot of Animated objects, Arrowhawk adult and elder, attach, Abyssal Greater Basilisk, ¿Belker?, ¿Bugbear?, ¿Bodak?, ¿Chaos Beast?, ¿Chuul?, Delver, ¿Derro?, Digester, Dinosaurs, Most Dire Animals, Destrachan, Lemure, Digester, Dragons and Displacer Beast Pack Lord.

I will just take dragons if you dont mind

[Daedroth]

Not sure: dragon tend to get HD faster than power. I think Amidus's remark may be more accurate.

We'll see when it comes to it.

Well, large gold dragon and red dragons are considered very strong polymorph forms so they have quite a punch for they HD.

Red wyrmnling has 7 HD but have comparable stats to the 10HD young black dragon: Better Str, better mental stats, worse breath weapon (but nicer for his HD), worse natural armor,slower and without swimn movement.
Very Young Red with 10HD absolutely tears 10HD black young: Large size, much better stats, slightly more damagin breath, it just loses to black on the movement department. Until it reach 16HD black dragon doesn't match 10 HD young red dragon Str.


Luckily, Red Dragons are next so we will see soon

[WhamBamSam]

Dragons do have a number of useful options available to them. Probably not enough to warrant LA, but like devils, the splat support is at least worth noting (especially as dragons have more of it than just about any other sort of monster). I do seem to recall dragon stacking up favorably against a single-classed Totemist by around mid-levels when a friend of mine classed them out by HD a while back. I think she did accelerate the progression of a few non-casting abilities (SLAs and such) though, which helped somewhat.

I'll also note that the Blue Wyrmling is actually fairly respectable at LA+0, since it has the skills to get into Ur-Priest only one level late with access to draconic cheeses like Sovereign Archetypes and a passable chassis for a divine gish. A Green Wyrmling can enter out of the box (and at LA+0, on time) by going Loredrake or taking Keeper of Forbidden Lore and visiting the Otyugh Hole. Again, doesn't really warrant LA, but it is something that doesn't often come up with monster class skills.

[Inevitability]

I'll also note that the Blue Wyrmling is actually fairly respectable at LA+0, since it has the skills to get into Ur-Priest only one level late with access to draconic cheeses like Sovereign Archetypes and a passable chassis for a divine gish. A Green Wyrmling can enter out of the box (and at LA+0, on time) by going Loredrake or taking Keeper of Forbidden Lore and visiting the Otyugh Hole. Again, doesn't really warrant LA, but it is something that doesn't often come up with monster class skills.

Still: a wyrmling entering Ur-Priest will get the same casting as a human, but the human will have 5 levels of actually useful abilities rather than just a 2d6 breath weapon and flight.

[Troacctid]

Dragon HD give you a great chassis, but without actual level-appropriate abilities, you'll just be a beatstick. I supported LA for some of those demons and devils because they have powerful magical abilities in addition to their good chassis. Dragons just have flight and natural attacks.

[Zancloufer]

Still: a wyrmling entering Ur-Priest will get the same casting as a human, but the human will have 5 levels of actually useful abilities rather than just a 2d6 breath weapon and flight.

Ex flight that is a good 2-5 times faster what most medium creatures can get. Also if you are doing Ur-Priest isn't like ~90% of what your build will be good at dictated by the casting? Dragon Racial HD Chassis is arguably one of the best. What class gives you d12 HD, all good saves, Full BaB and 6 skill points a level? Not like you will be using many of the class features you gained before becoming a Ur-priest anyway. . .

[Amidus Drexel]

Ex flight that is a good 2-5 times faster what most medium creatures can get. Also if you are doing Ur-Priest isn't like ~90% of what your build will be good at dictated by the casting? Dragon Racial HD Chassis is arguably one of the best. What class gives you d12 HD, all good saves, Full BaB and 6 skill points a level? Not like you will be using many of the class features you gained before becoming a Ur-priest anyway. . .

I think the usual Ur-Priest entry involves picking up arcane casting, then advancing both with your favorite theurge PrC, to eventually pick up dual 9ths. The other half of your build can be spellcasting of comparable power for most levels.

Not denying that excellent saves, several levels of full BAB and d12 HD, Ex flight, and a (admittedly mediocre) breath weapon isn't nice on a primary caster, but I'm not confident it's significantly better than your other Tier 1 options at the same level.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Ex flight that is a good 2-5 times faster what most medium creatures can get. Also if you are doing Ur-Priest isn't like ~90% of what your build will be good at dictated by the casting? Dragon Racial HD Chassis is arguably one of the best. What class gives you d12 HD, all good saves, Full BaB and 6 skill points a level? Not like you will be using many of the class features you gained before becoming a Ur-priest anyway. . .

You can get some great stuff before level 6, including spellcasting (Ur-theurge), defensive boosts, and things that improve your spellcasting later on. For example, domains (Inquisition, Gnome), bonus feats (metamagic, item creation), soulmelds (Illusion Veil, Planar Ward), marshal auras (Determined Caster), maneuvers (counters, boosts), invocations (Beguiling Influence, Darkness), and class features (Immediate Magic, chakra binds). These are just relatively low-complexity dips, available to most Ur-Priests, but not forcing the build one way or another. And still, they are definitely better than what a typical wyrmling brings to the table.

[Inevitability]

Dragon, Red

The image implies running from a thing with a speed far exceeding your own is a sensible strategy. Then again, it's from the people who thought monk 20 was a sensible build, so it's not too surprising.

At the top of the chromatic food chain we find the reds. Breath weapon is a cone of fire (finally some classic dragonness!), skills are Appraise (near-worthless), Bluff (pseudo-useful) and, I kid you not, Jump. Because obviously the winged sorcerous engine of death needs to make jump checks. Maybe a Wyrm of War will get some use out of it.

Wyrmling

A grand total of seven HD are good for the fire subtype, medium size, some strength, and a weak breath weapon. I know I make this comparison far too often, but a half-orc barbarian is outperforming a red wyrmling, down to the fire abilities. -0 LA.

Very Young

Large size, but nothing else. -0 LA.

Young

Sorcerer casting at ECL 13, soonest of all dragons. It would be impressive if it weren't so sad. -0.

Whatever Comes Afterwards

Because everyone knows that a SLA every few HD and some added strength bonuses can and will never make these into something worth the LA. I'm sorry, Smaug/Veritas fans, but reds are every single problem that plagues dragons, turned up to eleven. -0 for the lot of them.

[Flickerdart]

What are the class skills for monsters? I assume that dragons have some class skills beyond the three that are mentioned in their entries.

[khadgar567]

its official ı needed to open dragon fix treat in homebrew

[Inevitability]

What are the class skills for monsters? I assume that dragons have some class skills beyond the three that are mentioned in their entries.

SRD to the rescue!

Skills
All dragons have skill points equal to (6 + Int modifier, minimum 1) × (Hit Dice + 3). Most dragons purchase the following skills at the maximum ranks possible: Listen, Search, and Spot. The remaining skill points are generally spent on Concentration, Diplomacy, Escape Artist, Intimidate, Knowledge (any), Sense Motive, and Use Magic Device at a cost of 1 skill point per rank. All these skills are considered class skills for dragons. (Each dragon has other class skills as well, as noted in the variety descriptions.)

The skills aren't exactly bad, but they are quite limited.

[Flickerdart]

SRD to the rescue!

But what about other monsters, like dretches? Is Survival a class skill because it's noted in the entry, even though it has 0 ranks? If skills in the entry are class skills, how come a dretch has 6 class skills but a bebilith has 10, despite also being a demon?

[Zaydos]

But what about other monsters, like dretches? Is Survival a class skill because it's noted in the entry, even though it has 0 ranks? If skills in the entry are class skills, how come a dretch has 6 class skills but a bebilith has 10, despite also being a demon?

Monster characters treat skills mentioned in their monster entry as class skills.

Skills in entry are class skills, as written even with 0 ranks, which makes sense with ones where they have racial modifiers but 0 ranks, but strangely enough also includes synergy bonuses. Each demon's class skills are unique to the demon (not really that odd). Also Bebilith has 3 more skill ranks a hit die due to higher Int than a dretch so having more class skills is expected. Specifically dretch has 5 skills maxed out and a synergy bonus (Survival). Bebilith has 8 skills maxed out and 2 synergy bonuses (Diplomacy and Survival).

[Daedroth]

its official ı needed to open dragon fix treat in homebrew

You will go for the partial gestalt solution?




By the way, Dire Stirge, if you end assigning LA+0 to white wyrmling you could evauate if the alternate form ability is worth any LA (or the alternate breath weapon) and if not end with a "Every true dragon from the core is LA+0, done" because you would have done the smallests ones and the bigger ones, i don't think that with the other dragons would be different.

[Inevitability]

By the way, Dire Stirge, if you end assigning LA+0 to white wyrmling you could evauate if the alternate form ability is worth any LA (or the alternate breath weapon) and if not end with a "Every true dragon from the core is LA+0, done" because you would have done the smallests ones and the bigger ones, i don't think that with the other dragons would be different.

You mean I should also review the metallics, if only the first few age categories? I definitely will, don't worry. I'm not going to assign a LA to half, then ignore the second part of the 'dragon' category.

[Fizban]

The image implies running from a thing with a speed far exceeding your own is a sensible strategy. Then again, it's from the people who thought monk 20 was a sensible build, so it's not too surprising.

Frightful Presence.

Appraise (near-worthless)

One of those skills that's actually pretty important if your DM enforces it. How much is that worth? DM rolls dice, tells you a number, but you don't have appraise so you're crazy wrong and that could be bad. Have someone appraise it for you in town? They charge money for that you know, probably a percentage like a money changer if the item is hefty enough, and with no skill of your own you've got no way to know if you're being gouged without bringing considerably more magical/physical force to bear. I like to grab a single rank on any character that can afford it, since without training you can't accurately estimate the value on rare items (such those found by adventuring) no matter how high you boost your check. Also useful for picking which loot to grab if you're short on loot capacity, and Reds are supposed to be the lootiest.

[GreatWyrmGold]

[Appraise]

Even if the DM enforces it, it's far from the most important thing for most characters to spend skill points on. After all, the challenges it solves are inconsequential compared to most encountered during the adventure itself.

[Draconium]

I'm sorry, Smaug/Veritas fans, but reds are every single problem that plagues dragons, turned up to eleven.

I expected as much. Don't worry, I still like them.

[RedWarlock]

I guess I object to one factor if your evaluation.. You mention that such-and-such monster has melee damage equal to a barbarian of X level, and casting/special abilities of X level, evaluated as separate factors, but ignore the effective level a class-leveled character would have to be in order to have had BOTH factors at the same time. I feel like that might increase their LA value.

[Hurnn]

I guess I object to one factor if your evaluation.. You mention that such-and-such monster has melee damage equal to a barbarian of X level, and casting/special abilities of X level, evaluated as separate factors, but ignore the effective level a class-leveled character would have to be in order to have had BOTH factors at the same time. I feel like that might increase their LA value.

So a few points: first most of the time they are out performed by a moderately optimized melee guy at every level, second I don't think you realize how late they are getting the casting in the case of dragons 13 hd for 1st lvl sorcerer in the case of the red. Finally the racial HD of most monster suck out loud, they are just awful (2+int skills, super short skill list, no weapon proficiency, partial bab) even the monsters with good racial hd (outsiders and dragons) and cool natural abilities aren't actually more powerful than a single class tier 1 caster of the same level.

[Inevitability]

I guess I object to one factor if your evaluation.. You mention that such-and-such monster has melee damage equal to a barbarian of X level, and casting/special abilities of X level, evaluated as separate factors, but ignore the effective level a class-leveled character would have to be in order to have had BOTH factors at the same time. I feel like that might increase their LA value.

This may be a problem with other monsters (and if so, please say which ones), but dragons are actually pretty simple in that regard. They don't get sorcerer casting until around level 15, and by then the ton of HD they have outweighs what minor benefits a few 1st-level spells may get them.