The LA-assignment thread

[danielxcutter]

Get PaO'ed into a tree, then get awakened and dispell PaO. Should work and get you 3d6 int wis and cha.

I'm pretty sure that most tables use the "provokes AoO if within 5 feet" houserule for those kinds of things.

From a more serious angle, I think that unless PaO(whatever that stands for) removes your mental stats permanently, it probably wouldn't work.

[khadgar567]

face palms. can we continue treat please?

[The_Iron_Lord]

Polymorph Any Object == PaO

It does in fact replace your mental stats with those of a tree, and because the 3d6 int/wis/cha are from awaken, not PaO, hopefully they would stick around.

[GreatWyrmGold]

No feats necessary.

Could've sworn it was a feat.
Still, the fact that it's an alternate class feature means that only certain druids can take it.

Dear GWG and anyone else still talking about this,
Please. Take. This. To. Another. Thread.
Yours sincerely,
Dire_Stirge

My point was that it was silly to talk about it.

[Inevitability]

Gargoyle

Statblock illogicality of the day: Gargoyles don't need food, so the reason they eat fallen foes is to inflict pain. Eating corpses to inflict pain? 6 intelligence is showing through.

Apart from that and the weirdness of an [Earth] creature being able to fly, Gargoyles are surprisingly bland. They've got pretty good bonuses to all physical stats, the ability to wield weapons in addition to using two natural attacks. Their speed is good both on foot and in the air, and their DR is occasionally still relevant at lower levels.

Finally, there's Freeze: reasonably useful for springing ambushes at lower levels. Fortunately monsters don't tend to be as genre savvy as adventurers: a sole statue won't immediately arouse their suspicion.

In exchange for all this, gargoyles take a massive hit to intelligence and charisma, as well as 4 RHD (though being monstrous humanoid type, they're not that bad).

Accounting for all this, I think +0 LA is fitting here (somewhat considering +1). The same goes for kapoacinths, which are obviously slightly weaker.

[javcs]

I'd say a strong +0. They're good, but not good enough for the extra +1, IMO. Especially since their racial stat adjustments drive you towards a noncaster.



As for a possible explanation for the statblock illogicality ... (1) "fallen" doesn't necessarily mean "dead", (2) they're inflicting (emotional) pain/fear on those who find the corpses/friends of the eaten, (3) .. somebody goofed?

[Flickerdart]

Who was the genius that came up with kapoacinth? "Hey, you know where else statue creatures can hide, if not on buildings and stuff? Underwater!"

[Efrate]

I think plus one is good for gargoyles. Yes they suck as casters, but as a BSF type that statline, ex flight, and natural attacks put them beyond most 4th level charcters. The int hit hurts, putting the S in BSF, but i think they just a bit too good at plus 0. Maybe if they were not MH hitdie, but MH hitdie are quite good., and plus 8 con means the d8 doesnt matter much.

[Thurbane]

Who was the genius that came up with kapoacinth? "Hey, you know where else statue creatures can hide, if not on buildings and stuff? Underwater!"

Probably the same one who came up with lacedons and merrow...

[Flickerdart]

Probably the same one who came up with lacedons and merrow...

Nah, those are fine. It's basically "ogre mermaid" which is boring, but at least plausible. But underwater is not a normal environment for statues! Their camouflage does nothing!

[MesiDoomstalker]

Nah, those are fine. It's basically "ogre mermaid" which is boring, but at least plausible. But underwater is not a normal environment for statues! Their camouflage does nothing!

What the various aquatic flavors of normal races can't have stone masonry? Aquacist.

[Inevitability]

Nah, those are fine. It's basically "ogre mermaid" which is boring, but at least plausible. But underwater is not a normal environment for statues! Their camouflage does nothing!

Underwater ruins or flooded basements are a pretty common environment as far as fantasy locales go.

[WhamBamSam]

Underwater ruins or flooded basements are a pretty common environment as far as fantasy locales go.

Also not unheard of in real life.

[atemu1234]

Also not unheard of in real life.

Heck, it's basically italy.

[Inevitability]

Genie, Djinni

Somewhere, a linguistics major is angrily screaming at his monitor that 'genie' and 'djinni' are derived from the same Arabic word, and that making one a subset of the other is therefore ridiculous. Wherever you are, know I understand your frustration.

Djinn have seven outsider HD; in exchange they get a heap of bonuses. Ability boosts range from +8 to +4, the (perfect) fly speed is pretty good, and being Large won't hurt most builds either. Improved Initiative is something everyone can use. Immunity to acid has been randomly added in for reasons unknown (I guess being air and flesh makes you more acid-resistant than either of those on its own). Finally, there's 100 feet of telepathy, also known as 'no-selling all stealth since 2005'.

The genies also have a couple of abilities directly stolen from air elementals. Air Mastery is just an annoying bonus to keep track of, and Whirlwind isn't that great without a non-melee attack standard action to use while you're using it. Find some class feature that works with it or convince your DM whirlwinds can still wield bows.

Hidden away in a dark corner of the statblock is Plane Shift, an at-will version of the similarly-named spell that conveniently also affects allies. Not bad!

Finally, djinn have a number of SLA's. Invisibility is good for, well, turning invisible (though don't be surprised if a foe dispels or detects it), and at least it's at-will. Create Food and Water is nearly useless (so your party is mid-level, but without a survivalist, divine caster or everlasting rations?), and Create Wine has little middle ground between 'nice piece of fluff' and 'breaking the economy '.

Speaking about breaking economies, there's Major-Creation-with-permanent-vegetable-matter, able to create over 86 million GP per use. It's also got uses for creating nice food or short-lived adamantine weaponry, but who needs those if you can buy a small kingdom per day?

The further SLA's have their uses. Persistent Image is better than anything the illusionist has access to at this point in time, Wind Walk further reinforces a djinni's role as the party cab, and Gaseous Form has some use too.

In the end, I'd say +2 LA is warranted here, following the outsider rule of thumb. Djinn have some very powerful abilities and while they're not as smashy as similarly-leveled outsiders, they should be able to fit in just fine.

Noble Djinn

Three extra RHD in exchange for... what amounts to at-will Wish. Sure, there's some debatable text (if you 'perform no other services', can you still fight along the party?), but in practice this means a simple familiar or helpful party member can let you alter reality thrice per turn.

Obviously, this is going to get asterisk-ed. With their Wishes removed, noble djinn are basically just regular djinn that get more HD. That said, regular ones have +2 LA anyway, so I think reducing it to +0 is fine.

[Daedroth]

Isn't a "LA +Broken because it has a poorly written ugly mess of ability" for this and the Skarruth?

Why the author didn't just copy the efreet ability?

What is capture in game terms? You can make it concede you a wish just by the use of a rope?

I find the most reasonable approach is that needs to be Planar Binded

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, at ECL 15, a noble djinni is up there with planar shepherds and circle magic persistomancers and dominant ideal ardents and all-crafting artificers. In that company, noble djinni are very wish-centric, thus not very varied, but still playable and interesting. It shouldn't be too hard for the DM to impose limits that make wish usable in a high tier 1 environment.

So basically: as long as you keep in mind that noble djinni are high tier 1, and you houserule wish a bit, +5 LA is okay. Of course, +6 and +7 are also defendable, in slightly lower-tier environments. Any higher than that, and you're trying to fit noble djinni in a low-tier game, which is just not going to work.

[Troacctid]

Is it really "interesting" to just solve all your problems with your at-will Wish?

Personally I think both flavors of djinn, and honestly probably all the genies except the janni, should simply not be PCs. If I were to give them a level adjustment, it would be very conservative.

[Fizban]

Finally, there's 100 feet of telepathy, also known as 'no-selling all stealth since 2005'.

Point of order, that accusation has nothing to do with telepathy and is entirely on the Mindsight feat. I can't stop you from picking and choosing which ridiculous bits of RAW to canonize, but you really shouldn't go blaming it on the prerequisite ability which is at no fault whatsoever. If you don't like what Mindsight does to the game you can disregard it, it's not like anyone using it is taking the effects on the game into account for their balance either.

[Inevitability]

Is it really "interesting" to just solve all your problems with your at-will Wish?

Personally I think both flavors of djinn, and honestly probably all the genies except the janni, should simply not be PCs. If I were to give them a level adjustment, it would be very conservative.

No such things as em dashes, yadda yadda yadda.

Point of order, that accusation has nothing to do with telepathy and is entirely on the Mindsight feat. I can't stop you from picking and choosing which ridiculous bits of RAW to canonize, but you really shouldn't go blaming it on the prerequisite ability which is at no fault whatsoever. If you don't like what Mindsight does to the game you can disregard it, it's not like anyone using it is taking the effects on the game into account for their balance either.

Can we really consider telepathy and Mindsight to be different when every PC with one is going to have the other?

Seriously though, I was just poking fun at telepathy giving access to a very strong feat. I in no way oppose people taking Mindsight, and in fact consider it a useful addition to the game.

[Troacctid]

Technically, it doesn't no-sell all stealth, only the stealth of non-mindless creatures!

[javcs]

"A noble djinni can grant three wishes to any being (nongenies only) who captures it. Noble djinn perform no other services and, upon granting the third wish, are free of their servitude."

I'd rule that you can't grant wishes to party members. I'd also rule that you'd need to contain the noble djinn in some manner such that it is not capable of escaping - and that it will/must seek to escape before making the deal for wishes=freedom. I'd probably also rule that you can only do this once per person getting wishes from a noble djinn; that is, if you capture a djinn for wishes, you need a new djinn to get wishes from (ie, you can't keep capturing the same djinn for more wishes).
Furthermore, I'd rule that forcibly capturing and containing an unwilling noble djinn is the only way to get wishes from a noble djinn. And that once those wishes are granted the djinn auto-escapes - nothing can keep it from leaving (and it will be retaining a grudge against you).

I rule it as significantly weaker than the Efreeti's wishes. The Efreeti can give 3 wishes to a friendly non-genie once per day, the Noble Djinn can't.


For both the noble djinn and the efreeti, I would also rule that they themselves cannot directly benefit from any wish granted. And, a wish from a djinn/efreeti is likely to end up twisted in some manner, even if it's nominally a "safe" wish.

[No brains]

I would have zero qualms with using a noble djinn in exactly the same way Genie was used in Aladdin and the following series.

I figure to 'capture' the genie, you need to seal them in an iron flask or similar magic item and you get your three wishes upon releasing them.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Maybe we need a new notation, much like the "-0", for those monsters which have a single ability or set of abilities that completely unbalance the game in the hands of players, or that are, more usually, simply not compatible with the rest of its chassis.

A "house rules required" sort of sign. "Use this LA for everything but that one broken ability, otherwise, use this."

You can do perfectly nice things with the Djinn, and a LA of 2 sounds good, balanced, reasonable. Just disregard the Wish part.

[Troacctid]

That sounds like a useful distinction to make. You couldn't really have two separate LAs for monsters like solars, which have such a preponderance of abilities unsuitable for PCs that you can't really remove any particular thing to make them work, and it would be challenging for monsters like bodaks, where the thing that makes them unsuitable for PCs is also basically the only thing that they do. But a sort of "Danger!" marker could definitely be helpful to have.

[Inevitability]

Exclamation mark after the LA-value, perhaps?

[Troacctid]

I would use an asterisk, but only because the exclamation point makes me crack up imagining it as a factorial.

Of course, if it were me, I'd personally try out the Xykon emoticon, or the fiendish cockroach, and see how they look in the list. But I bet they'd just make the formatting look weird.

What would be perfect would be a ⚠ emoji, but I know those don't display properly in every browser.

[Jormengand]

I would use an asterisk, but only because the exclamation point makes me crack up imagining it as a factorial.

No, no, clearly it means that playing one is a good move.

[Flickerdart]

I would go with ~ (approximation mark).

[Inevitability]

On the subject of 'capturing' a noble djinni, the DMG (page 155) defines it as 'defeating without killing or driving away'.