The LA-assignment thread

[Inevitability]

Archon, Trumpet

Trumpet archons are surpringly similar to planetars. They're under-CR'ed celestials with innate cleric casting, with the planetar being the obviously stronger one. Trumpet Archons have a preset LA of +8, but that would put it six levels behind a single-classed cleric with no way to catch up.

For some weird reason, trumpet archons lack their lesser brethren's Aid spell-like ability. I know they can cast it as a cleric spell if necessary, but it's kind of weird a lantern archon is better at granting people temporary HP than the far more powerful trumpet archon. The spell-likes it does have are getting obsolete by now, though.

The ability granted by their trumpet is interesting and can potentially stunlock an entire encounter, but the saving throw DC is low and I find myself wondering why one doesn't just cast a few deliberating spells. Similarly, a +4 greatsword isn't that useful if you can just buy one (with actually useful enchantments instead of a flat +4 bonus) for one-fifth of your WBL

All things considered, the trumpet archon is a celestial powerful because of its cleric casting and racial abilities, but lacking the planetar's big guns. A +4 LA seems most appropriate, though I'm considering +3 LA. As always, your opinion is valued!

[Inevitability]

Arrowhawk

Arrowhawks: does anyone remember ever using or encountering them? I don't blame you: there's much better Plane of Air encounters than a lightning-shooting four-winged bird.

What can an Arrowhawk do? It is able to fire lightning once per round (about equal to Acidic Splatter), is immune to lightning, acid, and poison resistant to fire and cold, has natural armor, various ability score bonuses, perfect flight speed, a natural bite attack, and the excellent outsider type that makes its 3 RHD much better.

Of course, a strong base creature isn't enough: it needs to remain relevant at higher levels. Fortunately, the arrowhawk is able to do so. A roguish build will appreciate the high skill points and ability bonuses, not to mention the fly speed, and I can definitely see one stacking up to a 4th-level rogue. Final LA: +1.

There's also the adult (7 HD) and elder (15 HD) arrowhawks, but they're so incredibly similar that I'm not going to evaluate them thoroughly. -0 LA is the only fair option.

[AnimeTheCat]

Hmm... I almost feel that a LA+1 is a little too generous. I mean, you're getting 3 immunities, 2 resistances, natural armor, a fly speed, a supernatural ability that you can use every round, and stat bonuses on top of all that. Granted, it does have that 3d6 racial HD, but I feel doubtful that a 4th level rogue could stand toe to toe with it. I would feel more confident saying it deserves a +2 or more LA. I mean... Look at those defenses it gets lol. But that's simply my opinion. I'm really loving this whole thread.

[Inevitability]

Hmm... I almost feel that a LA+1 is a little too generous. I mean, you're getting 3 immunities, 2 resistances, natural armor, a fly speed, a supernatural ability that you can use every round, and stat bonuses on top of all that. Granted, it does have that 3d6 racial HD, but I feel doubtful that a 4th level rogue could stand toe to toe with it. I would feel more confident saying it deserves a +2 or more LA. I mean... Look at those defenses it gets lol. But that's simply my opinion. I'm really loving this whole thread.

I considered +2 LA, but doubt its necessity. The arrowhawk might be more defensive, but a 4th-level human rogue is dealing much more damage. (3d6+6 as opposed to 2d6), and I personally value damage over defense. Here's why:

The problem is that the arrowhawk doesn't really provide enemies with a reason to attack him. Their damage output equals that of a poor blaster (except without any nova potential), so they're not a big enough threat to warrant immediate death, so any reasonably smart enemy will be targeting the arrowhawk's allies instead: making the net damage its team receives very similar to that of the human rogue's team. It's the same problem monks have.

On natural armor, flight, energy resistances and things like that: casters will be getting those at 5th-level. I'm not even talking about wizards and clerics: a 'lowly' duskblade or beguiler can duplicate most of it.

[Inevitability]

Assassin Vine

This is one of those monsters that sounds interesting at first, but turns out to be yet another example of a well-known trope. The assassin vine is no exception.

On the one hand, it's pretty good at locking people down. High strength, high constitution, large size, improved grab, the ability to create an Entangle effect all around you, and 20 ft. of reach. Sounds great? Well, here's the downside: you have a move rate of five feet. That's right, an elderly gnome with a leg injury will still easily outpace you.

Even if you find a way to move around the battlefield, there's still the problem of you being a freaking plant. Armor will have to be tailor-made (I'm imagining some kind of chainmail sleeve), most magic items can't be used by you, and even Gloves of Man won't help you out, as you lack tentacles or paws. You have a single natural attack that's honestly pretty poor, but getting anything else will require heavy resource investment.

On the racial HD: those could be worse. The poor chassis is somewhat compensated for by the immunities you get, but if you really care about immunities, why not go warforged or necropolitian?

In the end, I think LA +0 is best here. Being unable to use most magic items in a game where they are more-or-less mandatory (especially for martials) is bad enough, but the fact that you're as fast as a beached mermaid kills most AV characters. Having to rely on the DM putting monsters within 30 feet of you isn't a viable tactic for any character. Don't get me wrong: someone can make this work, but they don't deserve a LA on top of their obvious problems.

[AnimeTheCat]

Assassin Vine

This is one of those monsters that sounds interesting at first, but turns out to be yet another example of a well-known trope. The assassin vine is no exception.

On the one hand, it's pretty good at locking people down. High strength, high constitution, large size, improved grab, the ability to create an Entangle effect all around you, and 20 ft. of reach. Sounds great? Well, here's the downside: you have a move rate of five feet. That's right, an elderly gnome with a leg injury will still easily outpace you.

Even if you find a way to move around the battlefield, there's still the problem of you being a freaking plant. Armor will have to be tailor-made, most magic items can't be used by you, and even Gloves of Man won't help you out, as you lack tentacles or paws. You have a single natural attack that's honestly pretty poor, but getting anything else will require heavy resource investment.

On the racial HD: those could be worse. The poor chassis is somewhat compensated for by the immunities you get, but if you really care about immunities, why not go warforged or necropolitian?

In the end, I think LA +0 is best here. Being unable to use most magic items in a game where they are more-or-less mandatory (especially for martials) is bad enough, but the fact that you're as fast as a beached mermaid kills most AV characters. Having to rely on the DM putting monsters within 30 feet of you isn't a viable tactic for any character. Don't get me wrong: someone can make this work, but they don't deserve a LA on top of their obvious problems.

Possible LA-1 territory?! In all seriousness, I'm guessing the Assassin Vine was never in a million years intended to be a PC, but LA +0 is about as fair as you're going to get. You would have to be pushed around in a wagon by your party to be able to do anything lol. I concur. I could see this working if you were a wizard and could make yourself fly. Now you're a flying tentacle monster??? that sounds kinda... ok I was gonna say scary but it sounds hilarious.

[Inevitability]

Possible LA-1 territory?! In all seriousness, I'm guessing the Assassin Vine was never in a million years intended to be a PC, but LA +0 is about as fair as you're going to get. You would have to be pushed around in a wagon by your party to be able to do anything lol. I concur. I could see this working if you were a wizard and could make yourself fly. Now you're a flying tentacle monster??? that sounds kinda... ok I was gonna say scary but it sounds hilarious.

I could see someone making a Horizon Tripper build, which would grant you the ability to teleport hundreds of feet every 1d4 rounds at ECL 11. A less elegant solution would be to just buy a bunch of mules: 5 to 20 should be able to carry you without any of them becoming heavily encumbered.

And I'm sorry, but the position of flying tentacle monster has already been filled.

[Flickerdart]

A DM once threw the assassin vine at the party - it would grapple trees and stuff, pull itself into their space, then release on the next round and grapple something else. Hardly RAW, but it was entertaining.

[Inevitability]

Athach

Because obviously the game needed three-armed giants with poisonous saliva and penis-like toes (have fun unseeing that one) wearing one of the most ridiculous 'garments' ever. Current LA is +5.

They have fourteen RHD. Those are of the Aberration type; meaning you're stuck with fourteen horrible levels. What do you get in return? Mostly ability score improvements, huge size, and a bite attack. Oh, and you have three arms.

I find myself wondering what to use the extra arm for, though. Triple-wielding is bad for the same reasons dual-wielding is and using a shield without having to hold it in your hand is ridiculously easy. Even Fuse Arms won't work: it only affects creatures with an even number of limbs.

In the end, you're sacrificing fourteen levels of your build to gain a boring pile of strength, size, and weirdly placed limbs that will only barely reach +16 BAB. I'm having trouble seeing how that is worth it, and I'm definitely not going to add a LA to all that.

Final verdict: -0 LA.

[ExLibrisMortis]

You can use your third arm to add 1⁄2 strength modifier to damage with specially-made weapons, as per Savage Species. For example, a custom three-handed sword would get 2x strength modifier on damage rolls. Won't change the LA, obviously, but it's something...

[Inevitability]

Azer

Fire dwarves. How nice. Azer possess decent stat boosts, two outsider HD, a natural armor bonus, the fire subtype, spell resistance and a minor heat ability. That's not bad, but not worth the +4 LA it's currently assigned either.

Azer casters don't have much going for them: sacrificing two RHD for a small bonus to your casting stat is a bad deal. As a result, I'll be assuming you go melee.

Compared to a 3rd-level orc barbarian, the azer has less HP, to-hit, and damage, but has superior AC, saves, and SR, as well as better dexterity, constitution, intelligence and wisdom.

I know I voiced my dislike of defensive abilities compared to offensive ones just a few days ago, but in this case I find +1 LA appropriate. As always, please voice any disagreements.

[Inevitability]

Barghest

The barghest, best known for its ability to eat souls to gain more HD. It should be obvious that any DM planning on allowing Barghests should impose some kind of restriction on this: I myself recommend using the Feed ability as an alternate form of advancement, with the barghest being able to add another RHD (leading to eventual development into a greater barghest) on levelup rather than a class level presumed it has consumed an appropriate number of souls. That said, it's worth an asterisk in my opinion.

Why play a barghest? Well, they have six outsider HD, good stats all around, a few (admittantly weak) natural attacks, DR, scent, darkvision, spell-like abilities and the power to change shape.

The shapechanging is fairly unimpressive: being a wolf is only useful for traveling and tripping, and turning into a goblin will lower both weapon damage and size modifiers, making melee combat far less interesting.

The spell-likes scale with your HD, but are otherwise not great. Blink is perhaps most interesting, but it requires you to spend an action every few rounds and harms you too, and Misdirection and Rage have been available to casters for so long now it's not even funny anymore. The 1/day abilities are better, but not exactly beyond an equally-levelled caster's reach either.

I find myself wondering what to do with a barghest, honestly. Melee seems the wisest, and a martial adept can still reach 8th-level maneuvers, but the racial abilities don't synergize so well. I guess one could make this work, but can't help but think of any barghest character as a misshapen combination of a caster with poor spells and a fighter.

Still, I can't help but see the creature's potential. +1* LA seems just appropriate, if only because of the relative strength of outsider HD.

Barghest, Greater

Basically a barghest with bigger numbers. It can assume a Large goblinoid form (ask your DM what the exact stats are), which should allow you to wield weapons... except by then you might as well play a half-ogre or goliath. The higher ability scores and larger number of spell-likes are decent, but again: they're just bigger numbers.

Is the LA still warranted here? I'm not sure: most of your tricks can be duplicated rather easily by now: even Barghest's Feast is only two levels away. +0* LA it is.

[Inevitability]

Basilisk

The basilisk: one of the trickier creatures to balance. It's got six magical beast HD (above average as far as RHD go), but its ability scores are hilariously low, it is slow, its only natural weapon is a weak bite attack, and it's medium-sized. A 6th-level human fighter will be better at melee combat than a basilisk.

Of course, I didn't mention the eight-legged lizard's main appeal: its petrifying gaze. Anyone who looks at a basilisk has a chance of turning to stone. It doesn't even take an action, though you can spend one to repeat the attack, if desired.

On the one hand, being able to spam a save-or-kinda-die-but-not-quite that very few creatures (constructs, deathless, undead, and some celestials) are immune to every turn is cool, and the saving throw DC will be decent, despite a basilisk's lack of charisma. On the other hand, friendly fire is inevitable, and you don't want to accidentally petrify your entire party then die to a handful of grimlocks.

Finally, it is important to remember that while turning an enemy to stone is flashy, it's essentially no different from landing a boosted charge and OHKO'ing the foe. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, but in the end both remove foes from the battlefield. Petrification is strong, but so is a mid-level orc barbarian with the right feats.

With all this in mind, I consider the basilisk a creature that's barely too strong to lack a LA altogether, but is more-or-less appropriate with +1 LA. DM's are advised to exercise caution when allowing this race, though.

Basilisk, Abyssal Greater

As is so often the case with high-HD low-CR monsters, this one just fails to stack up to a PC of equal level. -0 LA: if you want to play this ask yourself if a normal basilisk won't do.

[Fizban]

I've always assumed that all petrification attacks transformed gear along with the target (as Flesh to Stone does), which a a significant downside. I don't actually see this note under the Petrified condition though. Anyone have a source or FAQ about it?

[Inevitability]

Behir

Behirs are long, lightning-spewing snakelike creatures that eat people alive and hate dragons. Their intelligence is subhuman, but they're still smarter than mindless predators and can even speak common.

Obviously, a behir has got good melee potential. RHD that grant full BAB and a ten-sided hit die, Huge size, great strength and constitution, reach, 40 ft. movement, natural armor, and a bunch of grappling abilities.

Also of note is the breath weapon. It deals some (7d6) damage and can be enhanced with metabreath feats, making it a reasonable use of your action if you can't reach your foe for whatever reason.

The final question remains: what LA is appropriate here? I'm inclined to +2 LA myself. Not only is +2 a decent rule of thumb IMO, it also allows behirs to get 7th-level maneuvers should they enter a ToB class.


Next time: the monster you've all been waiting for! The sphere of many eyes! The eye tyrant! The annihilator of adventurers! That's right: the beholder!

[ImSAMazing]

I am so excited for the beholder (s)!

[PraxisVetli]

I am so excited for the beholder (s)!

Unholy Asmodeus the suspense is intense!
I swear I check this thread 10 times a day waiting for beholders!

[Inevitability]

Beholder, Gauth

Gauths are the beholders' lesser (and much freakier looking) cousins, armed with a plethora of special abilities. They also seem incredibly fun to play to me. Let's take a look at them, shall we?

Despite the great similarities, gauths are not true beholders and as such can't benefit from most of the support LoM gave beholders (this includes Beholder Mage). Still, certain feats *cough*Metaray*cough* remain available.

To put it simply: a gauth's natural abilities are strong. Your eye rays alone allow you to deal direct damage (Inflict Moderate Wounds, Scorching Ray), strip away magical effects (Dispel Magic), debuff foes (Ray of Exhaustion) or even force save-or-loses (Sleep, Paralysis). And that's before taking into account your high ability scores, stunning gaze, nonmagical flight, bonus feat, all-around vision, and natural armor. Your versatility is surprisingly large for a non-spellcasting monster.

Also good to remember is that your two primary offensive abilities (eye rays and stunning gaze) can both be used as free actions. This means you can spend your entire turn moving, re-targetting someone with your gaze, or using whatever class features you pick up later on while still being able to employ your natural abilities. That's awesome.

So now that we've established that gauths are pretty good an sich, how do they compare to other classes when class levels get added? Surprisingly good for a race with no advanceable abilities.

You see, something like a hag gains several useful spell-like abilities as part of her race. At higher levels, however, these abilities will have lost most of their uses, or will have become available as magic items. This makes most level-adjusted races far less useful at higher levels.

The gauth, however, can use his racial abilities together with whatever he learned from his class levels, because these racial abilities don't use up actions. A gauth wizard can unleash a handful of save-or-sucks a turn. A gauth rogue can fire sneak attack-enhanced rays while hurling a +1 returning mouthpick dagger. A gauth cleric can heal his undead hordes while buffing himself and blasting his foes. Where another race would only give more options, a gauth adds those options to your conventional turn.

So what LA is appropriate here? Call me crazy, but I'm going for +4. A higher LA may even be warranted, but I didn't want to turn gauths into complete glass cannons.

Casting two save-or-loses a round, at will, is a powerful ability that shouldn't be underestimated. A 10th-level wizard may be able to pull off something similar a few times per day, by combining something like a Quickened Seething Eyebane and Slay Living. Both this combo and the gauth's rays are effective against most creatures, and the save DC's will be about equal. The wizard has more versatility, the gauth can use the combo at-will and can use other actions in conjuction with the rays, which seems about even.

Finally, allow me to suggest taking dragonfire adept levels. Your breath weapon will be an excellent way to make use of your actions, you have constitution and charisma synergy, and most of all you'll be a firebreathing sphere of doom.

[PraxisVetli]

Finally, allow me to suggest taking dragonfire adept levels. Your breath weapon will be an excellent way to make use of your actions, you have constitution and charisma synergy, and most of all you'll be a firebreathing sphere of doom.

You're a madman.
It's beautiful!

[Inevitability]

You're a madman.
It's beautiful!

Thank you, good sir.

Beholder will probably be uploaded later today!

[Inevitability]

Beholder

The beholder: perhaps D&D's most iconic monster. Also a nightmare to balance.

The basic chassis is surprisingly weak for a CR 13 monster. Decent but not great ability scores that fail to include one specific focus, a slow fly speed, some natural armor, and eleven wonderful aberration RHD (aren't we happy?).

Then again, you don't play beholders for the stats, you play them for the ability to cause petrifying, disintegrating, and necrotizing death at 100 feet. And let's be honest: the beholder is very good at that. Your eye rays include save-or-dies, charms, direct damage, control, some out-of-combat abilities... A well-rounded set of powers all around.

Less interesting is the beholder's antimagic cone. If used at range, all it does is take both you and your foe out of the battle, and if used in melee the weird shape allows people to just walk around you and stab you.

A problem I ran into was beholder support. At-will disjunction for two feats or a prestige class whose name has become a synonym for brokenness are nothing to scoff at, and I can't help but wonder if there is a way to actually balance this.

In the end, I think I'm going with ECL 15 here. You sacrifice most of your build, get much in return, and (hopefully) end up with a balanced character.

As always, your feedback is requested.

[Caelestion]

Perhaps the late 3.5 write-up that Mike Mearls did for the beholder, making it easier to run, would allow for a different ECL?

[ExLibrisMortis]

I would be really unhappy to play an ECL 15 character with 11 abberation HD. On the other hand, eye rays! At-will disintegrate alone is nearly campaign-breaking for its multitool abilties (more in the physical than the narrative sense, maybe). There's a feat that lets you sculpt with it, too, I believe.

15 seems fair. You don't want to be able to buy off any of that LA until the beholder is no longer at an action advantage, which is going to be a long, long way past level 20.

[Inevitability]

Perhaps the late 3.5 write-up that Mike Mearls did for the beholder, making it easier to run, would allow for a different ECL?

Seems to me like it'd definitely affect the LA. Disintegrate twice a turn can be strong, but no more than a few well-aimed SoD's. The change to Antimagic Eye makes it finally useful, but I can't help but wonder how often your victim can't just walk out of the area.

I'd probably put it at +3 LA. You lose some major offensive ability, but you're still a beholder. This is definitely not an in-depth assessment, though.

[Inevitability]

Belker

Belkers another of those monsters few people know about, and fewer even use. They're evil clouds of smoke that kill people by being inhaled, then attacking someone from the inside. Flavorful, yes, but not good PC material.

Firstly, the seven RHD. Elemental-type, and a bad kind of elemental to boot. The class skill list is horrifyingly small (though at least somewhat usable). Seriously though, seven RHD that do almost nothing for you aren't a good starting point.

The other chassis abilities (flight, natural armor, ability scores, size) are nice, but don't match up that well. If you're Large, you are typically going to be a strength-based meleeer, but the Belker only has 14 strength. Similarly, dexterity-based melee typically wants to be medium or smaller.

A belker can turn gaseous for twenty rounds per day: too bad casters got that ability at ECL 5 already. It can also make people inhale it, then attack them from within, but it's a situational ability that deals little damage. You'd be better off just attacking people with your five natural weapons... but there are PC's who do such a thing better.

All things considered, -0 LA works fine.

[Thurbane]

Can a Belker with, say, Rogue levels, sneak attack from inside a creature with it's natural attacks?

[Inevitability]

Can a Belker with, say, Rogue levels, sneak attack from inside a creature with it's natural attacks?

Fairly sure it can't. There's no attack roll, it just deals 3d4 points of damage per round until the inhaled part is coughed out.

Rogue levels remain a good choice for a belker, though. Five individually weak natural attacks and dexterity go well with precision damage.

[Inevitability]

Blink Dog

Who's a Good b... wait, I did that joke already.

The blink dog is a 4 RHD magical beast. It could've been worse (at least you get full BAB). The base stats are somewhat underwhelming: poor ability scores for a melee creature, a single weak natural attack and a shoddy skill list. Fortunately, the special abilities make more than up for it.

For one, blink dogs get 1/turn Dimension Door as a free action that doesn't prevent them from acting after teleporting. That's huge. That's literally the solution to the two biggest problems of each meleeer: how to reach flying enemies, and how to move and full attack in the same turn?

Secondly, they get a permanent Blink effect. Note, however, that it can be activated and resumed as a free action. This means you can begin your turn, drop the effect, attack without incurring a 20% miss chance, then reactivate the effect to gain the bonuses against incoming attacks. Not as huge as the teleportation, but still useful.

Taking those special abilities into account, I think the blink dog deserves at least +1 LA.

[Inevitability]

Bodak

Does anyone else think these guys look like poorly-designed aliens?

Bodaks have nine undead RHD. That is bad, because it means giving up five BAB or nine levels of casting. The immunities it gives them are nice, but if someone wanted those they could just be a necropolitian.

The bodak's chassis isn't great. Low ability scores, a few energy immunities, and a poor natural weapon. The DR is decent.

And then there's their gaze attack, which is surprisingly useful. Monsters with immunity to Death are much rarer than PC's with immunity to Death, meaning you can essentially force one SoD a round.

But is this really special at that level? Remember, a 10th-level favored soul with Versatile Spellcaster can easily throw around six Slay Livings a day, and the favored soul has other abilities too. The bodak may be able to target multiple people a turn, but the main way of protecting allies from your gaze (Narrowed Gaze) makes that tactic impossible.

And let's not forget that the bodak has little to no advancement options. Spellcasting is out, so are most forms of melee, and little material actively empowers your gaze. Most likely, you'll have a bodak and his class levels with no synergy in between.

Final LA: +0.

[Troacctid]

But is this really special at that level? Remember, a 10th-level sorcerer with Versatile Spellcaster can easily throw around six Fingers of Death a day, and the sorcerer has other abilities too. The bodak may be able to target multiple people a turn, but the main way of protecting allies from your gaze (Narrowed Gaze) makes that tactic impossible.

I'll point out that Finger of Death is a standard action, while Death Gaze, as a gaze attack, requires no action. Furthermore, Finger of Death is a 7th level spell, so I don't see how a 10th level sorcerer is getting any of them at all, let alone six per day, Versatile Spellcaster be damned. As for your allies, all they need to do is a. stay more than 30 feet away from you, or b. be immune to it, both of which should be fairly easy to do.