The LA-assignment thread

[Caelestion]

Actually ... if you're not joking and that's true, that might explain a lot about WotC's habit of assigning excess LA, although I admit, I thought that was pretty well explained by WotC's dubious grasp of game balance and the actual value of various abilities and capabilities.

Well, I don't know if that's the real reason they did it, but that's the distinct impression I got, particularly around 2003, when they were transitioning to 3.5 and really ramping up having LAs for many, many monsters.

[ExLibrisMortis]

Well, I don't know if that's the real reason they did it, but that's the distinct impression I got, particularly around 2003, when they were transitioning to 3.5 and really ramping up having LAs for many, many monsters.

The LA system was almost certainly used to slap monsters with 'noyoucan'tplaythis' labels, and playing rare/nonhuman creatures is something to be discouraged, so I would not be surprised at all if monsters commonly received some extra LA for exoticness, just like dragons receive extra combat strength for dragonness.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Blue's got the +1 LA because they are amazing psions, one of the best races for them in my experience. I do not believe they deserve the +1 LA and in the groups in my area they are considered +0 (as per the table) and have done nothing other than spice up psion race selection a little.

[Flickerdart]

Blue's got the +1 LA because they are amazing psions, one of the best races for them in my experience.

Blues get +2 INT (and pay for it with -2 STR and -2 CHA) and 1 power point. What part about that is amazing? You want PP? Kalashtar gives you 20 PP. You want INT? Be an elf.

[Inevitability]

Blues get +2 INT (and pay for it with -2 STR and -2 CHA) and 1 power point. What part about that is amazing? You want PP? Kalashtar gives you 20 PP. You want INT? Be an elf.

I'm on Flickerdart's side here. If I ever get to blues, they're going to get +0 LA, no questions asked.

[ZamielVanWeber]

Blues get +2 INT (and pay for it with -2 STR and -2 CHA) and 1 power point. What part about that is amazing? You want PP? Kalashtar gives you 20 PP. You want INT? Be an elf.

+2 Int will give bonus PP as well and elves penalize Con (a far more useful stat for psions). Blues also rock small size while keeping medium speed. At low level, when this is all relevant, they are sexy. Certainly not the top race pick ever but they make for great psions.

I'm on Flickerdart's side here. If I ever get to blues, they're going to get +0 LA, no questions asked.

Why the implication that I am not? I already said we use them at LA +0.

[Inevitability]

Why the implication that I am not? I already said we use them at LA +0.

I was simply disagreeing with the fact that 'blues got +1 LA because they are amazing psions' is not a valid argument.

Ah well, since we both want the same I don't think there's any point in continuing the discussion.

[ZamielVanWeber]

I was simply disagreeing with the fact that 'blues got +1 LA because they are amazing psions' is not a valid argument.

Ah well, since we both want the same I don't think there's any point in continuing the discussion.

Never said they were right, just that was their reasoning as far as I can tell. The argument of them being punished for being a goblin is also a possibility. Designers had a pretty big hatred of players not being a socially acceptable race.

[No brains]

Well when you think about it from a social situation, playing as a monster race is actually a huge advantage worth an LA. You know who rules the monster races? The strongest among them. What do the PCs become? The strongest of their race. Playing as part of a race ruled by tyranny is like having leadership as a bonus feat.

Maybe this whole post should have been blue text, so just like tilt your monitor until you get that effect.

[Inevitability]

Gith

In which yours truly discovers a few monsters have been accidentally skipped over. Why, SRD? I trusted you!

Githyanki

I've been trying to make sense of the githyanki picture for several hours now. My best guess is that it's an intentional parody of all impractical armor ever.

That said, githyanki aren't that bad. Their ability adjustments are bland (if not that bad) and their SR low, but the scaling psionic abilities make up for a lot of that. It starts off with Daze (actually not all bad at low levels), moves on to Blur and Dimension Door, and ends with Telekinesis and Plane Shift. Note that all these abilities are gained at the levels a wizard or sorcerer would've gotten them.

Feat-wise, githyanki have a single notable perk. Githyanki Battlecaster is relatively easy to get and gives what's essentially Armored Mage. If desired, this can then be expanded upon with Battle Caster.

Githyanki need some kind of LA; that much is obvious. In the end, I'm going to go with +1, though I must say I've strongly considered +2.


Finally, please note that in campaigns going past level 16 being a githyanki gets far less desirable.

Githzerai

Githzerai have a better chassis than their astral brethren, with a huge dexterity boost, a smaller wisdom bonus, and only a minor intelligence penalty. Their SR is equal to the githyanki's, meaning it's not very good.

Psionics-wise, they're a bit behind. The low-level SLA's are better, but afterwards githzerai only get an upgrade once; at level 11 (two levels after githyanki) they access Plane Shift.

Githzerai also have a built-in armor bonus, which I suppose is nice for the monks and casters amongst them.

So what LA fits? I'm going to go with a strong +1 here, just like the githyanki's.


I had a lot of trouble coming up with appropriate LA's here, so I'd love for people to give their own opinions here.

[Flickerdart]

Finally, please note that in campaigns going past level 16 being a githyanki gets far less desirable.

For those uninitiated in githyanki lore, this is because the Lich Queen that rules them is incredibly jealous of her power. Should any githyanki rise above level 16, she executes them. Since githyanki are a warlike and aggressive people, they can't just stop earning XP to avoid this fate, so they have to craft that XP away and this is why the world is full of garbage items like apparatus of Kwalish.

[Inevitability]

For those uninitiated in githyanki lore, this is because the Lich Queen that rules them is incredibly jealous of her power. Should any githyanki rise above level 16, she executes them. Since githyanki are a warlike and aggressive people, they can't just stop earning XP to avoid this fate, so they have to craft that XP away and this is why the world is full of garbage items like apparatus of Kwalish.

Another good thing to note is that said lich queen isn't one of those weak NPCs with a dozen aristocrat levels or something; she's an epic-leveled wizard/archmage with a CR in the low thirties.

[Troacctid]

I agree with +1 for both, and for the psionic versions as well. An easy comparison is the Shadow-Walker template, which is also +1 LA and definitely not overpowered.

[Caelestion]

I think that their canonical LAs in Manual of the Planes was +2, so +1 seems very reasonable.

[Inevitability]

I think that their canonical LAs in Manual of the Planes was +2, so +1 seems very reasonable.

The MM versions have a LA too, and it's +2 for both.

[Caelestion]

Ah yes. MotP was v3.25 as I recall, so that could probably have been expected.

[Doctor Despair]

Is the ability to craft the githyanki silver sword that can cut astral cords of note? I can't recall if the rules allow any githyanki to make it or if it's just NPCs, but iirc it's an auto-kill for any creature using astral projection. I don't think it's worth an additional +1, but it's something

[Celestia]

Is the ability to craft the githyanki silver sword that can cut astral cords of note? I can't recall if the rules allow any githyanki to make it or if it's just NPCs, but iirc it's an auto-kill for any creature using astral projection. I don't think it's worth an additional +1, but it's something

Silver Swords suck. Aside from the insta-kill thing (and how often are you going to be on the Astral Plane, anyways?) they're just +3 greatswords that require exotic weapon proficiency. And Mind Blank makes one immune to the instant kill, anyways.

[Inevitability]

Golems

No witty descriptions today.

Clay Golem

Clay Golems are a mixed bunch. On the one hand the construct type offers some very nice immunities, the DR is very tough to overcome, immunity to magic is great for all aforementioned reasons, and 25 strength + large size is definitely not bad for a melee character. On the other hand, 11 construct HD suck, the stats apart from strength are horrible, Cursed Wound is incredibly situational and Berserk basically means any clay golem character is a ticking time bomb.

I think -0 (maaaaaaybe +0?) is best here. There's honestly better melee races available, most of them without self-destructive racial traits.

Flesh Golem

Well, at least this one can be reset once it starts rampaging... as long as its master is nearby. Also, a ton of common effects Slow flesh golems. The strength and natural attacks aren't bad, and weapons should be wieldable, but 9 construct HD is still one hell of a price to pay.

-0 again.

Iron Golem

Lots of strength but 18 RHD. -0 LA.

Stone Golem

The Slow effect is actually pretty interesting (if quite confusing fluff-wise). Still, -0 LA. Of greater stone golems we'll not speak.


I'm quite interested in what the community has to say here. Golems have a bunch of strength but quite a lot of weaknesses as well, and I wonder if some people consider the first to outweigh the second enough for a positive LA.

[Hurnn]

Iron would be the best of the bunch but to many rhd make it unplayable. I think la-0 is fine

[Troacctid]

I think the berserk ability calls for a ⚠. With it, the golem is just unplayable as a PC, because after a few combats you will permanently lose control of your character.

[khadgar567]

I think the berserk ability calls for a ⚠. With it, the golem is just unplayable as a PC, because after a few combats you will permanently lose control of your character.

unless the wizard who build put resetting calm emotions trap in the chassis.

[Inevitability]

unless the wizard who build put resetting calm emotions trap in the chassis.

*cough*Magic Immunity*cough*

[AMX]

One of my character ideas was a clay golem that had already gone berserk - he's calmed down since then and decided to "spread further destruction" only where it does something useful.

[ExLibrisMortis]

I think the Berserk ability is a bit like INT --: it's up to the individual table to decide how to handle it (hence probably deserves a !), but I would assume that it is handled.


Apart from that, golems just suck. Construct RHD offer half (edit) 3/4 base attack, so unless you're doing Ur-Priest persistomancy tricks to boost that, the strength bonus doesn't work out to much of an accuracy boost, let alone a boost worth giving up all your class features for.

Clay golem: 2.75 bab lost, +7 strength modifier, total gain +4.25.
Flesh golem: 2.25 bab lost, +5 strength modifier, total gain +2.75.
Iron golem: 4.5 bab lost, +11 strength modifier, total gain of +6.5.
Stone golem: 3.5 bab lost, +8 strength modifier, total gain of +4.5.
Greater stone golem: 10.5 bab lost, +13 strength modifier, total gain of +2.5.

So these golems are, on average, about as good as a fighter with (Greater) Weapon Focus/Specialization and a +2 collision weapon (roughly). Due to the base attack loss, golems might be better off as natural attackers, but they can't use incarnum, so they lose options in that department, as well.

[TotallyNotEvil]

I think the Stone Golem might be decent, actually.

3/4ths BAB isn't the best in the world, sure, but it's something. It's "only" 3HD above its CR, but brings huge STR bonus, two very nice slam attacks, a ton of Nat Armour, and, of course, a slew of immunities.

No good saves doesn't mean much when one has Magic Immunity. And immunity to damn near every other effect in the game on top of that.

I think those immunities make it a +0, if not +1.

You pretty much force most of everyone else to a slugfest with you. An with a ton of AC, decent HP, good DR and titanic Strenght, that's just where you want them.

[Fizban]

Dunno if it was caught in the last few pages, but I was catching up and noticed a question about the Gibbering Mouther re: which version. The original MM version has "Engulf," while the LM version replaces this with Swallow Whole and declares itself the officially errata'd version. The SRD uses the latter.

The two versions are extremely different. The LM/SRD version uses a grapple check to swallow whole as normal (start of the turn if they're held), then drains 1d4 con each round and can be escaped by dealing a pitiful 5 damage to the gullet-which might be more difficult through the DR/bludgeoning, if we had any hard rules on how damaging creatures from the inside worked and the LM version didn't conspicuously leave the usual piercing/slashing stipulation out.

The MM version drains 1 con per mouth attached to you per round, and while the mouths can be strength checked or sundered off, they continue draining for 1d4 rounds afterward. If it has three of its six main bites attached to a single creature it can engulf them (no action or timing given though I'd expect immediately if it's meant to actually work), on a reflex save rather than a grapple check. Once engulfed, on the mouther's next turn they get to make 12 bite attacks against the engulfed foe and their 6 main bites are free to attack others.

The MM version prohibits the engulfed creature from attacking the mouther from within and gives no means of exit, save the unstated solution that if your friends kill it they can cut you out which most people allow. It plays out like mind flayer hydra tentacle weasels and getting engulfed should be lethal to level appropriate PCs. I expect it would be a stronger monstrous PC as well, draining a lot of con in very few rounds with further abusable attached mouth mechanics, and completely shutting out attacks if you get them engulfed.

[Daedroth]

I think the Stone Golem might be decent, actually.

3/4ths BAB isn't the best in the world, sure, but it's something. It's "only" 3HD above its CR, but brings huge STR bonus, two very nice slam attacks, a ton of Nat Armour, and, of course, a slew of immunities.

No good saves doesn't mean much when one has Magic Immunity. And immunity to damn near every other effect in the game on top of that.

I think those immunities make it a +0, if not +1.

You pretty much force most of everyone else to a slugfest with you. An with a ton of AC, decent HP, good DR and titanic Strenght, that's just where you want them.

More than magic inmunity, the huge amount of inmunities that have constructs, wich protects you from the nastier things of the game aside from spells (mind-affecting effects, poison, energy drain...).
RD 10/Adamantite is nice too

Only two very niche spell will screw you and i don't remember any debuff with SR:No, wich makes only a problem blasting (orb.-based) and indirect spells (Battlefield control). Unlike SR, RAW, you cannot lower your inmunity i think.

The bad thing is that you are also inmune to almost every buff in the game and only mud to rock and mundane reparation will heal you (On the other hand at this level is pretty p`robable that your party will have access to mud to rock; druid, wizard, rune staff...).

[Flickerdart]

Are you evaluating the Golems as if they had Int? Because not being able to have any skills or feats is a huge, huge issue that basically guarantees LA -0 without some ridiculous features like built-in spellcasting.

[TotallyNotEvil]

Are you evaluating the Golems as if they had Int? Because not being able to have any skills or feats is a huge, huge issue that basically guarantees LA -0 without some ridiculous features like built-in spellcasting.

I suppose it comes down to how it's adapted. Can you even play a character without Int?

Also, if anyone wants to talk Wizards.