The LA-assignment thread

[GreatWyrmGold]

I might have missed something, but it seems like you are saying that the invisible stalker isn't actually invisible by RAW to justify a +0 LA. I hope I'm wrong!

Invisible stalkers are invisible. But D&D includes rules for using sight to notice the invisible signs of invisible creatures (e.g, crushing grass as they walk, disturbing the flow of dust, birds trying to fly through empty air and splatting...), and invisible stalkers fall foul to such measures.

[Agahnim]

Oh that's right, my mistake! The SRD says that a DC 20 spot check lets you "become aware of an invisible creature near you". Does that include its precise square (I suppose so)? Even then, the Stalker still has the 50% miss chance going for it.
But a lot of monsters for the MM have blind-fight as a filler feat IIRC...

[Zancloufer]

Invisible stalkers are invisible. But D&D includes rules for using sight to notice the invisible signs of invisible creatures (e.g, crushing grass as they walk, disturbing the flow of dust, birds trying to fly through empty air and splatting...), and invisible stalkers fall foul to such measures.

While normal things do kind of fall foul to these things normally the Invisible Stalker is a flying cloud of invisible air. It does NOT leave tracks to find or disturb the ground as it walks (because it doesn't). Since it is a sentient cloud of air that doesn't breath one could argue it is a "non living" creature therefore it gets +10 on it's Hide checks. A stationary Invisible Stalker is a DC 40 spot check to know it's nearby, DC 60 to know the square it is in.

Still falls foul to scent and blind-sight and it's base 8 HD are kind of bleh. Does get some racial class and would make a half decent scout/rouge character if you don't mind the first 8 levels of your build having gimped skill points.

Also note on blind fight: It only reduces the chance of you missing an invisible creature if you know what square it is in.

[Inevitability]

Since it is a sentient cloud of air that doesn't breath one could argue it is a "non living" creature therefore it gets +10 on it's Hide checks.

'Nonliving' is defined as 'not having a constitution score'. Invisible stalkers clearly have one (and would be a lot worse if they didn't). Arguing they are 'unliving' just because they don't breathe is wrong.

[Thurbane]

Also, its arguable that RHD don't count as 'classes' for the purpose of feats that get you extra class skills (such as Martial Study (Shadow Hand)), in which case a stalker would be behind on skill ranks for a while. Meanwhile, whisper gnomes are rocking a +16 to Hide at level 1 (low-end estimate), with Silence as a SLA to go with it.

I'd like to think in a game where a DM is willing to allow monsters with a more reasonable LA than the books suggest, they would also be open to the more lenient reading of RHD counting as "class levels" for beneficial purposes.

In regards to Invisibility and not having Hide as a class skill: Martial Study [shadow hand] or Guerrilla Warrior feats will help with that, to varying degrees.

[Inevitability]

Let's compare an invisible stalker to whisper gnome rogue 8 (wielding a poison ring). Both placed a 15 in the score governing their attack rolls. For the purpose of this exercise, we'll assume no opponent can see invisible creatures, and the rogue has a flanking buddy or some other way of sneak attacking each round (obviously, the rogue picked Penetrating Strike).

The stalker is making two attacks per round, both with an attack bonus of +13 (+6 BAB, +6 STR, -1 size, +2 invisibility). In addition, it gets to ignore its opponents dexterity bonus. Each attack deals 2d6+6 bludgeoning damage, averaging 13.

The rogue is making two attacks as well, with an attack bonus of +11 and +6 (+6 BAB, +4 DEX, +1 size), both of them touch attacks. A hit deals 1+4d6 damage, averaging 15.

Perhaps we should give the stalker Power Attack and the rogue Craven. The stalker drops to +7 to-hit and deals 2d6+12 (average 19) now. The rogue stays at +11/+6 touch, but now deals 1+4d6+8 damage (average 23).

Furthermore, the rogue has racial SLAs (including Silence), class features, an actual skill list, and a wider range of PrCs to enter. It's outperforming the stalker in nearly every way except hiding (if the stalker spends an extra feat on that) and toughness (though Evasion helps there).

+0 seems fine, honestly. If anything it's on the weaker side.

[Thurbane]

For the purposes of this thread, I can accept LA +0.

My game errs on the "WotC" side of LA, so I'd likely assign LA +1 or +2.

TBH, no one in my game has ever played anything with RHD, so it's a bit of a non-issue. I'm hoping to run a one-shot some time and encourage monstrous PCs.

[Inevitability]

New thread is up; please post there from now on.