Multiclassing restriction

[DanyBallon]

Not that Multiclassing as written in the PHB is problematic, but I feel that level dipping is more than often metagaming, in order to get a specific ability.

I've been considering the 2e multiclass/dual class system, but it is a bit restrictive and don't work well within 5e. 3e had xp penalties when you had one class falling too far behind. This could be a solution, but as players we don't like the feeling of falling behind the group.

So I'm looking for ideas that would be incentives to keep your classes within 1 or 2 level from each other, without having the impression that you are underpowered if you don't.

Ideas I had so far (none of them I'm satisfied with):
- applying 3e multiclassing rules as written
- if one of your classes is 2 or more level below your highest class, you can't use the features gained from the latest level of your higher class (kinda hard to explain in game)
- if one of your classes is 2 or more level below you highest class, you can't progress in your highest class at all until you close the gap.

[Final Hyena]

The 2 level gap would make multiclassing rather bad outside of very low level games.

I feel multiclassing is either fun RP and done despite being sup optimal or it's used for cheesy dips. Depending on your game/players it's easier to just allow it or ban it.

I'm not a fan of it and so ban it, but I am happy making classes for my players if they had something else they really wanted to play.

[Silvanshei]

Ideas I had so far (none of them I'm satisfied with):
- if one of your classes is 2 or more level below your highest class, you can't use the features gained from the latest level of your higher class (kinda hard to explain in game)

I would go the other way and do this:
- if one of your classes is 2 or more level below your highest class, you can't use the features gained from the lowest level class (in game explanation is you haven't really been focusing on those abilities).

[Zale]

I think the multi class penalties were one of the single most unpopular parts of 3E.

I've literally never seen anyone even suggest using them.

[DeAnno]

Part of the reason dipping is so common is that you frequently run into accidentally getting Extra Attack twice. I think any system punishing class level divergence should let you trade extra incidences of Extra Attack for an ASI or skip that level or something.

[Oramac]

I feel multiclassing is either fun RP and done despite being sup optimal or it's used for cheesy dips. Depending on your game/players it's easier to just allow it or ban it.

Why not both? You can take a cheesy dip and still have a great RP character. I've got an entire backstory for my Tempest 2 / 18 Storm Sorcerer that explains why he took 2 levels of Cleric.

So yes, it's cheesy, but it's also RP'd and makes for a very fun character, both mechanically and thematically.

[Final Hyena]

Why not both? You can take a cheesy dip and still have a great RP character. I've got an entire backstory for my Tempest 2 / 18 Storm Sorcerer that explains why he took 2 levels of Cleric.

So yes, it's cheesy, but it's also RP'd and makes for a very fun character, both mechanically and thematically.

Sounds like you're explaining cheese with RP.
There is nothing stopping you from becoming religious or saying your powers come in part from the divine.

[Oramac]

Sounds like you're explaining cheese with RP.
There is nothing stopping you from becoming religious or saying your powers come in part from the divine.

It is. But isn't that what we do, as optimizers? We're getting very close to the Stormwind Fallacy here, but the basic idea is that optimization and RP are not mutually exclusive.

[Final Hyena]

It is. But isn't that what we do, as optimizers? We're getting very close to the Stormwind Fallacy here, but the basic idea is that optimization and RP are not mutually exclusive.

You're justifying cheese because of RP, despite the fact that you could do that RP without the cheese.

[Morcleon]

You're justifying cheese because of RP, despite the fact that you could do that RP without the cheese.

I see nothing wrong with that so long as you stay fairly close to the power level of your party.

[Final Hyena]

I see nothing wrong with that so long as you stay fairly close to the power level of your party.

Given that I used the term cheese, that should mean the ones that don't do that.

[Oramac]

You're justifying cheese because of RP, despite the fact that you could do that RP without the cheese.

Ok. Let's reverse it. What if I justify the RP because of cheese? The end result is the same: a fun character that is both mechanically and thematically appropriate.

You just don't like multiclassing. That's fine. But don't rain on others parade because they find a legitimate way to do something you don't like.

[Final Hyena]

Ok. Let's reverse it. What if I justify the RP because of cheese? The end result is the same: a fun character that is both mechanically and thematically appropriate.

You just don't like multiclassing. That's fine. But don't rain on others parade because they find a legitimate way to do something you don't like.

Excusing cheese with RP
Excusing RP with cheese

There is nothing wrong with RP you don't need to excuse it with cheese, but there is something wrong with cheese which is why you excuse it with RP.

I just don't like Cheese. Saying that I don't like something that you do doesn't make the point less valid.

[Oramac]

I just don't like Cheese. Saying that I don't like something that you do doesn't make the point less valid.

Ok. So what makes it cheese? Synergy? Why is that bad?

For that matter, why put a word on it? Something you define as cheese other people might define as clever.

Run your games how you like. But don't tell other people they're doing it wrong just because you don't like some abstract concept you've made up, when said concept is fully supported by the rules set forth in the game.

[DanyBallon]

Please can we get back on topic. I said that I don't like level dipping because more than often it is done for metagaming aspect, I never pretended that you couldn't justify level dipping with roleplay.
Debate between Optimizing vs Roleplay has been done over and over and is not what I'm looking for.

I'm looking for something closer to 2e where your classes where improving almost equally (different xp progression could create some gap between classes).

[Final Hyena]

Ok. So what makes it cheese? Synergy? Why is that bad?

For that matter, why put a word on it? Something you define as cheese other people might define as clever.

Run your games how you like. But don't tell other people they're doing it wrong just because you don't like some abstract concept you've made up, when said concept is fully supported by the rules set forth in the game.

Cheese is a superior strategy. It's bad because it reduces variety in favour of the strongest build.

You put a word on anything to identify that thing quickly. It may be clever, what I object to is still the above point.

I think cheese is wrong, if you disagree fine, that was my first post "know your players/game and run your campaign accordingly." Something might be in the rules, that doesn't mean it's good.

I'm looking for something closer to 2e where your classes where improving almost equally (different xp progression could create some gap between classes).

Maybe have a look at this.

[DanyBallon]

Maybe have a look at this.

Thanks for the link. It was an interesting read, but I feel that his hybrid class are allowing for much stronger character and I'm not too found about it.

I think that multiclassing is a choice that the character makes in order to get versatility and/or power, and their should be a cost attached to it. Mutliclassing as written in 5e PHB needs you to sacrifice your highest level features in order to progress in an other class, which I believe is fine. My only concern, is that sometime the cost is not really significative.
i.e. a wizard level dipping for Wx/F2 will lose the Signature Spell feature, an ASI and one 6th level spell slot and one 7th level spell slot, in exchange, he gets more HP, armor proficiencies, action surge, second wind, and a fighting style. He can now on cast spells while wearing medium armor, take the Defense fighting style to get +1 ac, get the ability to regain 1d10+2 hp once per rest and can take a second action once per rest as well. Depending on when the dip is taken, he may benefits from higher HP (and survivability) at early level at the cost of getting new spells a bit later than a fellow wizards. To me, this is not what I call a great sacrifice. Hence my dislike of level dipping.