Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

[zimmerwald1915]

MMII is a 3.0 book; the update booklet for 3.5 gives them Combat Casting along with the Empower Spell they already had (and also explicitly calls out that differences between creatures and characters gaining feats were removed, and that "many monsters gained additional feats").

Well that clears that right up, doesn't it?

[Lacuna Caster]

The part that's really confusing here is that Celia explicitly said the summoning amulet didn't need a spell...

So, just to check, nothing else is confirmed about her prior transport arrangements?

[Ephemera]

So, just to check, nothing else is confirmed about her prior transport arrangements?

Well, she does say, when she finds out that Roy is dead (in 530--sorry I'm on mobile and too lazy to manually link it), that they were always separated by a spell, and that it's just resurrection instead of plane shift. That brings up the issue raised earlier about plane shift having an accuracy of 5-500 miles (although it's not 100% clear what the "nigh impossible" part of the srd description means or whether it's possible to be more precise when traveling to the prime material plane since the spell description only specifies traveling from the PM http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm).

I'm also not totally sure that we can be sure Celia is literally describing her previous method of travel, as opposed to being a little poetic, but maybe it passes muster.

[hroþila]

Being an advanced sylph would explain her Medium size, however. Sylphs start out Small and advance to Medium size at 10 HD.

Wouldn't that make her explicably Medium-sized?

[Lacuna Caster]

Well, she does say, when she finds out that Roy is dead (in 530--sorry I'm on mobile and too lazy to manually link it), that they were always separated by a spell, and that it's just resurrection instead of plane shift. That brings up the issue raised earlier about plane shift having an accuracy of 5-500 miles (although it's not 100% clear what the "nigh impossible" part of the srd description means or whether it's possible to be more precise when traveling to the prime material plane since the spell description only specifies traveling from the PM http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/planeShift.htm).

I'm also not totally sure that we can be sure Celia is literally describing her previous method of travel, as opposed to being a little poetic, but maybe it passes muster.

Yeah, that's fair. It's just that Plane Shift (and similar spells) require a caster level much higher than Celia herself can muster, so she'd likely have to hire a senior cleric/wizard in a large town or city to do the job (or have had them do the Calling first.) Azure city presumably has plenty of those, but she might have had to journey some distance after Durokan's dungeon to get home. Which... interests me.

(On a similar note, can anyone remember how Sabine cast Plane Shift? I don't think it's listed as a standard succubus ability.)

[Ephemera]

It's definitely a little wonky. It doesn't seem like 14th-level arcane casters are that common in stickworld. 9th level clerics a little more so, I guess. But IIRC Celia seems pretty unconcerned with how she's going to get home (or get back to visit). For that matter, do we have any idea what kind of item the summoning charm she gives Roy is?

My head canon has always been that she has some kind of houseruled planar travel SLA, but obviously no evidence for this exists.

Edit: sorry, this is pretty much the point Lacuna was making, above.

[Quartz]

Yeah, that's fair. It's just that Plane Shift (and similar spells) require a caster level much higher than Celia herself can muster

Maybe she has a magic item?

ETA: why can't Celia have class levels herself?

[Lacuna Caster]

Uh... offhand, I can't think of any intrinsic reason- I just can't recall her casting a combat spell which would suggest she was that powerful. Would sorcerer class levels stack with her own racial caster levels?

I guess some specialised magic item isn't impossible (the summoning amulet wouldn't be too far off), but if Celia (or Sabine) can pop back and forth between arbitrary locations on the material plane, they'd essentially be a free teleportation service for the party.

[b_jonas]

but if Celia (or Sabine) can pop back and forth between arbitrary locations on the material plane, they'd essentially be a free teleportation service for the party.

Not necessarily, because he might not be able to carry anyone with them. Recall when the annoying imp told Vaarsuvius that he can carry only 50 pound of items when he teleports.

[Lacuna Caster]

Not necessarily, because he might not be able to carry anyone with them. Recall when the annoying imp told Vaarsuvius that he can carry only 50 pound of items when he teleports.

More than enough space in a bag of holding. :P

(I don't have a particular problem with Celia needing to trek (fly?) to the nearest town, btw. Travelling to other dimensions is probably about equivalent to buying an airline ticket. Pricey and inconvenient, but not a major barrier to professional relations.)

[Ephemera]

More than enough space in a bag of holding. :P

Wait, can you put people into one of those?

(I don't have a particular problem with Celia needing to trek (fly?) to the nearest town, btw. Travelling to other dimensions is probably about equivalent to buying an airline ticket. Pricey and inconvenient, but not a major barrier to professional relations.)

I guess...except that she's probably needing something better than plane shift, unless she's willing to fly 500 miles and find Roy. I suppose with her fly speed that's not all that unlikely, but highly inconvenient for the number of trips we're talking about. And I doubt that she can find that many people hanging around Azure City who can handle Gate or something else that has higher accuracy. I still like the theory that she and Sabine can both transport themselves accurately between planes (maybe only between their home plane and the prime material). Some sort of house rule about OOTS outsiders? I realize we don't have enough evidence, of course, but it seems to be how the story works, that getting back and forth is easy for them. Maybe it's a special rule only for outsiders with boyfriends on the prime material plane.

[MesiDoomstalker]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the number of to-and-from's the Plane of Air isn't that high. Lets list them (please point out any I missed).

1. First arrival, likely via a [Calling] from Dorukan
2. First depature, after the events of Dungeon of Durokan (currently unknown)
3. Second Arrival, a [Calling] from the Azure City officials for a legal person or whatever
4. Second depature, after the trial. Techincally the [Calling] spell should take care of this, but maybe not
5. Third arrival, via Haley breaking the charm
6. Third depature, by Halely dismissing the [Calling] from the charm.

The only ones we don't have an explicit, or very easy assumption, to is the first departure back to the Plane of Air and the second departure after the trial.

[Lacuna Caster]

Wait, can you put people into one of those?

Says living creatures can survive up to ten minutes.

@Mesi: Yeah, it's reasonable to assume Planar Ally with suitable terms of payment/dismissal would cover her first and second appearances. Especially given Plane Shift is expressly described as highly erratic.

[Ephemera]

@Mesi: Yeah, it's reasonable to assume Planar Ally with suitable terms of payment/dismissal would cover her first and second appearances. Especially given Plane Shift is expressly described as highly erratic.

My only quibble is that Planar ally should have sent her back when the trial was over (aside from costing them thousands of gold pieces in payment). The strip does sound like Planar ally (although she says that she flew there). I'm willing to write that off to artistic license (and to make it easier to understand for the non-D&D players), but there wouldn't seem to be any reason for the Azurize priests to have bargained for a term long enough for Celia to still be around for the New Year's celebration so she should have been sent back right after the conclusion of the trial.

I am, however, willing to drop it, since I'm under no illusions that I can prove that that's _not_ how she got to the trial.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Uh... offhand, I can't think of any intrinsic reason- I just can't recall her casting a combat spell which would suggest she was that powerful. Would sorcerer class levels stack with her own racial caster levels?

That's how things generally work.
Another interesting question...sylphs have sorcerer casting equal to their HD plus four. A class level gives an extra hit die. Does this mean sylphs get extra sorcerer casting each time they level up?

[Hecuba]

My only quibble is that Planar ally should have sent her back when the trial was over (aside from costing them thousands of gold pieces in payment). The strip does sound like Planar ally (although she says that she flew there). I'm willing to write that off to artistic license (and to make it easier to understand for the non-D&D players), but there wouldn't seem to be any reason for the Azurize priests to have bargained for a term long enough for Celia to still be around for the New Year's celebration so she should have been sent back right after the conclusion of the trial.

I am, however, willing to drop it, since I'm under no illusions that I can prove that that's _not_ how she got to the trial.

Ehh, we know the Giant is deliberately lenient on Summoning & Calling minutiae in pursuit of transparency. When I feel the need to reconcile that one in my head, I assume she bargained for some leisure time on the Prime (perhaps at Azure City's expense) as part of the PA negotiation.

[zimmerwald1915]

That's how things generally work.
Another interesting question...sylphs have sorcerer casting equal to their HD plus four. A class level gives an extra hit die. Does this mean sylphs get extra sorcerer casting each time they level up?

A sylph that advanced her outsider HD, or took a level in sorcerer, would gain a level of sorcerer casting. A sylph that took a level in rogue, however, would not.

[Lacuna Caster]

Ehh, we know the Giant is deliberately lenient on Summoning & Calling minutiae in pursuit of transparency. When I feel the need to reconcile that one in my head, I assume she bargained for some leisure time on the Prime (perhaps at Azure City's expense) as part of the PA negotiation.

Cleric: Okay, but we still need to put the terms down in writing.
Celia: *sigh* 'Also, time to ambush Greenhilt with side-boob'.
Cleric: Well, I'm glad there's no conflict of interest.
Celia: Shut up and cast.

[GreatWyrmGold]

Cleric: Okay, but we still need to put the terms down in writing.
Celia: *sigh* 'Also, time to ambush Greenhilt with side-boob'.
Cleric: Well, I'm glad there's no conflict of interest.
Celia: Shut up and cast.

I'm pretty sure she'd like time off even if she didn't know she'd start dating one of her clients.

And I'd think "this party rescued me from an eternity of stony imprisonment" would be enough conflict of interest.

[Lacuna Caster]

*sigh* Apparently I suck at humour.

[zimmerwald1915]

And I'd think "this party rescued me from an eternity of stony imprisonment" would be enough conflict of interest.

There's no conflict because Celia doesn't owe loyalty to more than one party here. She's being hired by Azure City to defend the Order of the Stick in the capacity of a public defender; that makes the Order her client. Azure City is merely footing the bill.

[Quartz]

V clearly has See Invisibility active in 1056. Yes, I know it's already on V's list.

[Peelee]

V clearly has See Invisibility active in 1056. Yes, I know it's already on V's list.

I would disagree on the "clearly," unless you can explain something I've missed.

[Quartz]

I would disagree on the "clearly," unless you can explain something I've missed.

Think about it a little. :)

[Peelee]

Think about it a little. :)

He hears her speak, he tells her to follow, they converse, her invisibility is negated by the giants. Still not seeing it.

Unless "clearly" is a joke what went over my head.

[Quartz]

Still not seeing it.

:)

Unless "clearly" is a joke what went over my head.

It was indeed.

[Ephemera]

I believe that 1057 is the first time we've seen V cast Mass Suggestion, so we can add that at least.

[Quartz]

In #1055 we see V cast a version of Chain Lightning that doesn't appear to conform to the SRD. I've previously suggested an electrical version of Fire Storm. But I've had another look at the picture and a Widened Chain Lightning with its 90' limit might just about fit. For V to cast this on her own account would require her to know the feat Widen Spell - or Sudden Widen Spell - and be 17th level or have an item of that ilk. Do we have any indications of either?

[Quartz]

I believe that 1057 is the first time we've seen V cast Mass Suggestion, so we can add that at least.

We've seen V cast Mass X spells several times, most notably in the battle for Azure City. Are we sure she doesn't have a 'Mass Spell' metamagic feat?

[Ephemera]

We've seen V cast Mass X spells several times, most notably in the battle for Azure City. Are we sure she doesn't have a 'Mass Spell' metamagic feat?

There's no such feat in the SRD as far as I can tell. There's this one in the D&D Wiki, but it can only be used with harmless spells, so that wouldn't fly (or suggest, as the case may be ).

Not the most authoritative source, however, so I defer to someone with a more exhaustive knowledge of 3.5 sourcebooks as to whether that's possible.