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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Clearly our next thread title must be "Class and Level Geekery XV - We Have a Banana"

  2. - Top - End - #752
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageWombat View Post
    Clearly our next thread title must be "Class and Level Geekery XV - We Have a Banana"
    ... and we're not afraid to use it

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  3. - Top - End - #753
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by SavageWombat View Post
    Clearly our next thread title must be "Class and Level Geekery XV - We Have a Banana"
    The Goon Show:

    Neddy Seagoon to a villain "Put your hands up!"

    Villain "You can't fool me, that's a banana."

    *bang*

    Seagoon "Did you think I'd threaten you with an unloaded banana?"
    The end of what Son? The story? There is no end. There's just the point where the storytellers stop talking.

  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    ... and we're not afraid to use it

    GW
    Yes, definitely.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    A suggestion for proof of "Chaotic Good" for Shojo - besides Belkar's own fallible opinion:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    Haley feels she is not "Good enough" based on a complex set of personal experiences and insecurities; the universe still dumps her in the Chaotic Good box, next to Elan and Shojo.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    So general challenge for everyone here if their bored, how much has the OOtS gang grown during the comic? That is to say what level were they at comic page 1 vs now? If comic 1 OOTS were to get in a fight with present OOTS how badly would they be creamed?

    Ignoring the growth as characters, such as V learning to be more optimal by not spamming damage spells and Elan learning he has spells at all, by raw stats/talents/gear what is the power difference?
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    I think Belkar's stat block needs an update. His reason for his level is quoted as (forum), but there is no link. I have no way of telling why he was cited at that level.

    I'm also kind of confused by his low level. I had thought i remembered previously he was quoted as having a minimum level higher then the known levels of his two classes combined, but I don't see that now. I'm sure he must be higher then level 12 in story if he is hanging out with level 16 people. I understand we need proof of his level to cite it, but surely XP gain alone would be enough to do that? At such a low level he wouldn't need as much XP I would have figured he could be proven to have leveled from that.


    In fact it seems like he has to be at least level 14, doesn't he? As I see it we know that Belkar was exactly the same level as Durkon at the time of the pyramid since we can see that Holy Word deafened, but didn't blind, him here

    Furthermore we cite Durkon as being level 14 due to spells cast in the same dungeon

    Thus Durkon was 14 when he cast the Holy Word and Belkar was the same level as durkon to not be blinded, ie belkar is at minimum 14, or so it would seem to me? I seem to recall we then had some xp gain calculations showing him level once after that?
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  8. - Top - End - #758
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dsollen View Post
    So general challenge for everyone here if their bored, how much has the OOtS gang grown during the comic? That is to say what level were they at comic page 1 vs now? If comic 1 OOTS were to get in a fight with present OOTS how badly would they be creamed?

    Ignoring the growth as characters, such as V learning to be more optimal by not spamming damage spells and Elan learning he has spells at all, by raw stats/talents/gear what is the power difference?
    The first post in the geekery thread for Roy's level, suggests that he's level 14 now, and was level 8 at the very start of the strip (reaching level 9 in strip 12).

    6 level difference is big. And some may be even higher level than that now.

    This:

    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/shows...&postcount=533

    put V & Haley as 16th level.
    Last edited by hamishspence; 2017-05-30 at 09:42 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    It is the case, always. Even if it were a rule, it reads far more clunky your way.

    English grammatical structure is Germanic, not Romantic. Despite what Latin-obsessed teachers made up back in the 1700s, it's perfectly fine to end a sentence a preposition. Similarly, I also try to always split infinitives.
    Well, hang on, are you sure you try to always split infinitives, rather than always trying to do the same?

    ed:

    Quote Originally Posted by dsollen View Post
    I think Belkar's stat block needs an update. His reason for his level is quoted as (forum), but there is no link. I have no way of telling why he was cited at that level.

    I'm also kind of confused by his low level. I had thought i remembered previously he was quoted as having a minimum level higher then the known levels of his two classes combined, but I don't see that now. I'm sure he must be higher then level 12 in story if he is hanging out with level 16 people. I understand we need proof of his level to cite it, but surely XP gain alone would be enough to do that? At such a low level he wouldn't need as much XP I would have figured he could be proven to have leveled from that.


    In fact it seems like he has to be at least level 14, doesn't he? As I see it we know that Belkar was exactly the same level as Durkon at the time of the pyramid since we can see that Holy Word deafened, but didn't blind, him here

    Furthermore we cite Durkon as being level 14 due to spells cast in the same dungeon

    Thus Durkon was 14 when he cast the Holy Word and Belkar was the same level as durkon to not be blinded, ie belkar is at minimum 14, or so it would seem to me? I seem to recall we then had some xp gain calculations showing him level once after that?
    The calculations are from the same post that has Roy's. That post cites #859 as indicating that Durkon is at least level 14, presumably based on his casting of Holy Word. It then says that Belkar's being deafened means he's at least level 15. This is straight up wrong on several counts. First, Belkar is deafened by the Holy Word, meaning his level is *exactly equal* to Durkon's (not one level higher). Second, Holy Word, being a 7th level spell, can be cast by Durkon at level 13. Unless I'm forgetting a spell, he casts his backdoor'd Mass Death Ward and Holy Word (from his Good domain slot). Thus Durkon's level is at least 13, and the same is true for Belkar. This gives Belkar's minimum level as 13, not 14 or 15 as stated in that post. He's probably leveled up since then, but we (I think) don't have any evidence of when, outside of Zimmy's uncited and unchecked xp calculations.

    Incidentally, we cite a comic showing Haley making four attacks in a round as evidence that she is level 16. This doesn't jive; rogues gain their third base attack (Haley also has one from Rapid Shot) at level 15, so Haley's minimum level based on attacks per round is 15, as it has been for a while.
    Last edited by unbeliever536; 2017-05-31 at 09:00 PM.
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  10. - Top - End - #760
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by unbeliever536 View Post
    Incidentally, we cite a comic showing Haley making four attacks in a round as evidence that she is level 16. This doesn't jive; rogues gain their third base attack (Haley also has one from Rapid Shot) at level 15, so Haley's minimum level based on attacks per round is 15, as it has been for a while.
    Well, we also know that Haley has gained a level since then.

  11. - Top - End - #761
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by unbeliever536 View Post
    First, Belkar is deafened by the Holy Word, meaning his level is *exactly equal* to Durkon's (not one level higher). Second, Holy Word, being a 7th level spell, can be cast by Durkon at level 13. Unless I'm forgetting a spell, he casts his backdoor'd Mass Death Ward and Holy Word (from his Good domain slot). Thus Durkon's level is at least 13, and the same is true for Belkar. This gives Belkar's minimum level as 13, not 14 or 15 as stated in that post. He's probably leveled up since then, but we (I think) don't have any evidence of when, outside of Zimmy's uncited and unchecked xp calculations.

    Incidentally, we cite a comic showing Haley making four attacks in a round as evidence that she is level 16. This doesn't jive; rogues gain their third base attack (Haley also has one from Rapid Shot) at level 15, so Haley's minimum level based on attacks per round is 15, as it has been for a while.
    Durkon also gets CL +1 for Good spells as part of the Good domain, hence the extra level for Belkar, meaning, I think, that's 13 at the time but Belkar is exactly 1 level higher than he is. I forget if there's someone else in the scene whose level we know that allowed us to infer a higher level for Durkon (and hence Belkar).

  12. - Top - End - #762
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by unbeliever536 View Post

    The calculations are from the same post that has Roy's. That post cites #859 as indicating that Durkon is at least level 14, presumably based on his casting of Holy Word. It then says that Belkar's being deafened means he's at least level 15. This is straight up wrong on several counts. First, Belkar is deafened by the Holy Word, meaning his level is *exactly equal* to Durkon's (not one level higher). Second, Holy Word, being a 7th level spell, can be cast by Durkon at level 13. Unless I'm forgetting a spell, he casts his backdoor'd Mass Death Ward and Holy Word (from his Good domain slot). Thus Durkon's level is at least 13, and the same is true for Belkar. This gives Belkar's minimum level as 13, not 14 or 15 as stated in that post. He's probably leveled up since then, but we (I think) don't have any evidence of when, outside of Zimmy's uncited and unchecked xp calculations.
    [/url].
    He casts heal the same day meaning Holy Word as domain spell, Mass Death Ward (which rich states is only level 7), and Heal for a total of 3 level 7 spells and thus Durkon at least level 14. Incidentally the same link as Heal cast shows him making two attacks in a round, not 3, which seems pretty definitive proof he was not yet 15, where he gets a third attack, placing his lvl at exactly 14. We should really update the front page to link to his casting Heal when we quote number of cast a day to make it a little more obvious that was the defining moment (and possibly also cite number of attacks in a round to justify why he isn't 14+).

    edit: his wisdom is quoted as maxing at 23, exactly one less then required to gain another level 7 spell from wisdom, so he couldn't have cast any of his level 7 due to his wis modifier)



    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    Durkon also gets CL +1 for Good spells as part of the Good domain, hence the extra level for Belkar, meaning, I think, that's 13 at the time but Belkar is exactly 1 level higher than he is. I forget if there's someone else in the scene whose level we know that allowed us to infer a higher level for Durkon (and hence Belkar).
    Since Durkon was level 14 that raises Belkar to exactly 15 in the temple. It would be interesting to redo the xp calculations to see if he could have made it to 16 as well, though I lack the resources to be able to do that math (and likely would miss details since I'm not a D&D expert)
    Last edited by dsollen; 2017-06-02 at 12:33 PM.
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  13. - Top - End - #763
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by dsollen View Post
    He casts heal the same day meaning Holy Word as domain spell, Mass Death Ward (which rich states is only level 7), and Heal for a total of 3 level 7 spells
    Heal is level 6.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Finally decided to subscribe here!

    I noticed Tarquin's entry lacks several feats - most pointedly, Snatch Arrows and it's prereqs. Exotic Weapon Proficiency: Whip seems likely too.

    Also, it seems that he has Monk levels, due to Evasion, Soul Muncher being described as a ki focus weapon, and the fact that Deflect Arrows(required for Snatch Arrows) and Stunning Fist are both Monk bonus feats. I'd say that he's a Monk 2/Fighter X at least.

    It seems like he has either Improved Grapple or Improved Trip, since he threw Durkon. I forget which one would apply, though it's certainly possible that the scene I've mentioned is just the Giant bending the rules.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I noticed Tarquin's entry lacks several feats - most pointedly, Snatch Arrows and it's prereqs.
    That's been gone into extensively. Really extensively. :)

    Also, it seems that he has Monk levels, due to Evasion, Soul Muncher being described as a ki focus weapon, and the fact that Deflect Arrows(required for Snatch Arrows) and Stunning Fist are both Monk bonus feats. I'd say that he's a Monk 2/Fighter X at least.
    That too. :)

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by danielxcutter View Post
    I noticed Tarquin's entry lacks several feats - most pointedly, Snatch Arrows and it's prereqs.
    As Quartz hinted, you may want to look through the thread's history to see the extended discussion on the topic. In (very, very) short, and IIRC, snatch arrows cannot be used while holding on to the ship (because your hands are busy, and you can't stop holding on when not in your turn). RAW also doesn't seem to allow to use it twice (originally, he was given the epic version of the feat, which does allow it). Ultimately, there must be so many house rules involved that determining exactly what feats are involved turned out to be impossible to agree upon.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    ....must restrain self from quibbling over details of summary...

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Ephemera View Post
    ....must restrain self from quibbling over details of summary...
    Same.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    As Quartz hinted, you may want to look through the thread's history to see the extended discussion on the topic. In (very, very) short, and IIRC, snatch arrows cannot be used while holding on to the ship (because your hands are busy, and you can't stop holding on when not in your turn). RAW also doesn't seem to allow to use it twice (originally, he was given the epic version of the feat, which does allow it). Ultimately, there must be so many house rules involved that determining exactly what feats are involved turned out to be impossible to agree upon.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Douglas View Post
    Heal is level 6.
    Opps...

    Still, that still puts Belkar's level at 14 which should be specified.


    In other news, can we put Roy's STR as 29? He says in today's strip that the giant is as strong as him, and frost giant's have a strength of 29 so if we take his statement literally he would need to match that strength.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    The citations for levels and such should really cover the minimum set of information necessary to make the determination, not just one comic. In Haley's case, for example, that would mean her four attacks on still-living Crystal and the subsequent comic mentioning her new level. Durkon's would be a list of seventh sixth level spells he cast on pyramid day (see below). Elan's should arguably cite the fact that he's retraining to pick up CCW, but that's probably not essential. While I'm picking nits, Elan's Int maxes out at 9, not 10, if he can't cast Wizard cantrips (unless we're hypothetically allowing him to have put his level 12 ability score boost in Int, but then we should say so).

    On Durkon's level: I went and took a look at the cleric table, and it turns out they gain a 6th level spell at level 14 as well as a 7th. Then I went through Durkon's 6th level spells cast on Pyramid Day. He casts: Heal, Find the Path, Planar Ally, and Extended True Seeing. Durkon has 7th level spells but not 8th level spells, so he is level 13 or 14, with up to 23 Wisdom. This gives him one domain spell slot and up to one bonus spell slot. If he's level 13, he would only have one regular 6th level spell slot, but at level 14 he has two. Since he casts four total spells, he must be a 14th level cleric with a bonus spell slot (ie Wis 22-23). His second domain is either Healing (grants Heal) or Knowledge (grants Find the Path and True Seeing). He could get Find the Path from Travel Domain, but that would give him a Freedom of Movement ability that would allow him to escape Mallack's grapple (not to mention Teleport), and so can safely be discarded. Healing grants the cure spells below 6th level, so we'd need to eliminate or confirm the Knowledge domain. That domain grants Detect Secret Doors, Detect Thoughts, and Clairvoyance/Clairaudience from off-list, so if Durkon has ever cast one of those (I think not)*, he's got the Knowledge Domain. It also grants Divination (4th) and True Seeing (5th), so if Durkon was ever in a situation where he cast all of his 4th/5th level spells and no Cure spells and couldn't have used a Good domain spell (I'd be surprised), the same applies. I also observe that Mallack must have had the Air domain, since he was able to cast Control Winds.

    All of this domain info is assuming that Durkon is picking from SRD domains; if we open things up to all domains listed in SC:

    - True Seeing is also found on the Dragon and Inquisition Domains (as well as on the Trade Domain, but at too high a level).
    - Find the Path is also found on the Cavern and (unlikely seeming) Elf Domains.
    - Planar Ally is found on the Summoner Domain.

    My final verdict, without digging through lower level spells: Durkon is level 14 exactly, has Wisdom 22-23, and either the Knowledge or Healing Domain (but no other, unless SC domains are admitted) in addition to the Good Domain.

    On a totally separate note: if we assume Belkar's not retraining to get his Favored Enemy: Undead, that must be his 4th favored enemy selection, since he says he picked it up from his experience in Azure City (before which time he was already level 11), making him a Ranger 15 / Barbarian 1+ (though note that if we take it fully literally, rather than saying he "put the knowledge together" after the pyramid, it would mean he was level 16 in the pyramid and thus should not have been affected by Durkon's spell, since Durkon is independently at least level 13). Our justification for Roy being level 14 (as opposed to 13) hinges on him needing to reach level 14 to gain a feat, so we've got precedent for ignoring retraining rules, which in any event are from an unconfirmed book.

    I also see that Belkar is listed as having taken the following feats:

    1) CDMI
    2) Dodge
    3) Mobility
    4) Spring Attack
    5) Bounding Assault
    6) Power Attack
    7) Improved Sunder
    8) Two-Weapon Pounce (PHBII feat; PHBII is unlisted)

    Without taking flaws Belkar has at most 6 feats; 7 if we allow that he might be 18th level. To resolve this, I note that the citation for Bounding Assault shows Belkar attacking the Hex Hag from the air. This has nothing to do with the effects of Bounding Assault, which gives a Spring Attack iterative. It was almost certainly added because someone confused Bounding Assault with Leap Attack, a feat that enhances Power Attack's effects on jump attacks. Belkar's attack on Miron is cited for his having Spring Attack, but the fight with the thieves is probably the best argument for him having it (or Bounding Assault, for that matter). However, this is almost certainly stylized; we see Belkar attacking three people in what looks like a move-attack-move sequence, which would require Rapid Blitz and BAB 18+. With the assumption that these attacks are stylized or otherwise don't require Spring Attack and its children, we can delete the entire Dodge tree, for which no evidence remains, while also adding Leap Attack. This gives the following list of five feats, with one free:

    1) Power Attack
    2) Improved Sunder
    3) Two-Weapon Pounce
    4) Leap Attack
    5) CDMI
    6) ???

    This list has things in what I believe to be a sensible order; it gives him all his standard attack routines as fast as possible. Leap Attack and Two-Weapon Pounce both require in various ways that Belkar be level 6 to acquire them; we know for a fact that he takes CDMI at level 12. His final feat is unknown; Two-Weapon Defense is quite plausible but I don't think there's great evidence for it.

    * I seem to remember a thread somewhere that just listed every spell ever cast in OOTS. Does anyone else remember that thread?

    ETA:

    Quote Originally Posted by dsollen View Post
    Opps...

    Still, that still puts Belkar's level at 14 which should be specified.


    In other news, can we put Roy's STR as 29? He says in today's strip that the giant is as strong as him, and frost giant's have a strength of 29 so if we take his statement literally he would need to match that strength.
    Roy can't have strength greater than 21 + 6 = 27 unless someone's been casting Wish on him (or something similar). His base strength at level 1 was at most 18, he's had the opportunity to assign an extra 3 ability score points somewhere, and his belt gives him at best a +6. (In fact, his strength should probably be listed as 22-27; if you follow through on the discussion the only conclusion is that his *total* strength is at least 20 at that point in the story, and we know the belt was able to improve his score but might have forced him to abandon a pair of Gauntlets of Ogre Power (rendering an upgrade of +4 or +6 to a net +2 or +4, potentially).

    e2:

    Lemme make a nice little table for Durkon's spells to go with Zimmy's table for V. Based on Greg's casting of Planar Ally, I'm assuming Durkon's spells carried over from before he died. Nevertheless, I've separated spells known only from casting by Greg; these are on the right of the pipe symbol in the lists below. Spells prepared by Durkon (including, potentially, Greg's Planar Ally) are on the left.

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    0 - Guidance, |
    1 - Cure Light Wounds, Divine Favor, | Command,
    2 - Hold Person x2, Remove Paralysis, Cure Moderate Wounds, | "Cure" Moderate Wounds,
    3 - Thor's Lightning, Speak with Dead, Dispel Magic, Mass Resist Energy, Meld Into Stone (D?), Remove Blindness/Deafness, |
    4 - Cure Critical Wounds, Sending x2, |
    5 - |
    6 - Planar Ally, Heal x2, Find the Path, Extended True Seeing (any, esp of the last three, could be (D)), |
    7 - Resurrection x2?, export edition Mass Death Ward, Holy Word (D) |

    Plus an unknown maybe spell in the last panel here.

    We thus see: 1 / 6 0th-level spells, 3 / 7+1 1st-level, 5 / 7+1 2nd-level, 6 / 5+1 3rd-level, 3 / 5+1 4th-level, 0 / 4+1 5th-level, 0 5 / 4+1 6th-level, 4 / 3+1 7th-level.

    Durkon implies that he can cast another Resurrection, but he might have a scroll or just extra diamond dust and 24 hours, since he definitely doesn't have 32 Wis. His two Heals are more problematic unless he's got Divine Metamagic (Extend), in which case he can cast Extended True Seeing as a 5th level spell. There's also an extra 3rd level spell, but but we knew that already he can just have one of them in a higher level slot. If he doesn't have one of them in that higher level slot, I conclude that Durkon has the rather improbable Cavern domain, which grants both Meld Into Stone and Find the Path (none of his other 3rd level spells are granted by candidate domains).

    Last edited by unbeliever536; 2018-01-07 at 11:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by unbeliever536 View Post
    Elan's should arguably cite the fact that he's retraining to pick up CCW, but that's probably not essential.
    I figured he wasn't talking about retraining, but about the standard "spell swap at 14th level" that Bards get:

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm
    The bardís selection of spells is extremely limited. A bard begins play knowing four 0-level spells of your choice. At most new bard levels, he gains one or more new spells, as indicated on Table: The Bard. (Unlike spells per day, the number of spells a bard knows is not affected by his Charisma score; the numbers on Table: The Bard are fixed.)

    Upon reaching 5th level, and at every third bard level after that (8th, 11th, and so on), a bard can choose to learn a new spell in place of one he already knows. In effect, the bard "loses" the old spell in exchange for the new one. The new spellís level must be the same as that of the spell being exchanged, and it must be at least two levels lower than the highest-level bard spell the bard can cast. A bard may swap only a single spell at any given level, and must choose whether or not to swap the spell at the same time that he gains new spells known for the level.

    As noted above, a bard need not prepare his spells in advance. He can cast any spell he knows at any time, assuming he has not yet used up his allotment of spells per day for the spellís level.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by unbeliever536 View Post

    On Durkon's level: I went and took a look at the cleric table, and it turns out they gain a 6th level spell at level 14 as well as a 7th. Then I went through Durkon's 6th level spells cast on Pyramid Day. He casts: Heal, Find the Path, Planar Ally, and Extended True Seeing. Durkon has 7th level spells but not 8th level spells, so he is level 13 or 14, with up to 23 Wisdom. This gives him one domain spell slot and up to one bonus spell slot. If he's level 13, he would only have one regular 6th level spell slot, but at level 14 he has two. Since he casts four total spells, he must be a 14th level cleric with a bonus spell slot (ie Wis 22-23). His second domain is either Healing (grants Heal) or Knowledge (grants Find the Path and True Seeing). He could get Find the Path from Travel Domain, but that would give him a Freedom of Movement ability that would allow him to escape Mallack's grapple (not to mention Teleport), and so can safely be discarded. Healing grants the cure spells below 6th level, so we'd need to eliminate or confirm the Knowledge domain. That domain grants Detect Secret Doors, Detect Thoughts, and Clairvoyance/Clairaudience from off-list, so if Durkon has ever cast one of those (I think not)*, he's got the Knowledge Domain. It also grants Divination (4th) and True Seeing (5th), so if Durkon was ever in a situation where he cast all of his 4th/5th level spells and no Cure spells and couldn't have used a Good domain spell (I'd be surprised), the same applies. I also observe that Mallack must have had the Air domain, since he was able to cast Control Winds.

    All of this domain info is assuming that Durkon is picking from SRD domains; if we open things up to all domains listed in SC:

    - True Seeing is also found on the Dragon and Inquisition Domains (as well as on the Trade Domain, but at too high a level).
    - Find the Path is also found on the Cavern and (unlikely seeming) Elf Domains.
    - Planar Ally is found on the Summoner Domain.

    My final verdict, without digging through lower level spells: Durkon is level 14 exactly, has Wisdom 22-23, and either the Knowledge or Healing Domain (but no other, unless SC domains are admitted) in addition to the Good Domain.
    Great assessment, and I agree with it, for what little my D&D knowledge counts. I strongly suspect Durkon's other domain is Heal, though I don't think I have any definitive proof of that.


    Quote Originally Posted by unbeliever536 View Post

    On a totally separate note: if we assume Belkar's not retraining to get his Favored Enemy: Undead, that must be his 4th favored enemy selection, since he says he picked it up from his experience in Azure City (before which time he was already level 11), making him a Ranger 15 / Barbarian 1+ (though note that if we take it fully literally, rather than saying he "put the knowledge together" after the pyramid, it would mean he was level 16 in the pyramid and thus should not have been affected by Durkon's spell, since Durkon is independently at least level 13). Our justification for Roy being level 14 (as opposed to 13) hinges on him needing to reach level 14 to gain a feat, so we've got precedent for ignoring retraining rules, which in any event are from an unconfirmed book.

    We have pretty definitive proof thta Belkar was level 15 in the pyramid, based off of Durkon's level and him being blinded. I feel that Belkar's retraining a favored enemy makes more sense then Durkon having another boost to casting level. Besides which level 16 just seems too high for Belkar all the way back in Azure city. As such I'm inclined to go with Belkar at level 15 at the time of the Pyramid, with a presumption that he retrained his favored enemy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dsollen View Post
    Great assessment, and I agree with it, for what little my D&D knowledge counts. I strongly suspect Durkon's other domain is Heal, though I don't think I have any definitive proof of that.
    See my second edit. I would have agreed with you, but now I've got a reason to claim Cavern, which is so comically obscure that I feel obligated to back it. Real proof is basically impossible with Healing in the running, due to spontaneous Cure, but another spell to watch for after Durkon's revival would be Regeneration, the 7th level Healing domain spell.

    We have pretty definitive proof thta Belkar was level 15 in the pyramid, based off of Durkon's level and him being blinded. I feel that Belkar's retraining a favored enemy makes more sense then Durkon having another boost to casting level. Besides which level 16 just seems too high for Belkar all the way back in Azure city. As such I'm inclined to go with Belkar at level 15 at the time of the Pyramid, with a presumption that he retrained his favored enemy.
    I wasn't trying to say he had it then; I think he's picked it up since then (claiming to have based it on his fights in Azure City), as part of his prep for fighting Greg. Level 16 Belkar at second trip to the Oracle (latest possible time if he leveled during the Resistance period) is pretty silly, I agree, even if we disregard the fact that he must have been level 15.

    ed:

    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    I figured he wasn't talking about retraining, but about the standard "spell swap at 14th level" that Bards get:

    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/bard.htm
    That's what I meant; sorry for being unclear. The current cite just shows that he carried out his retraining plan; it doesn't indicate what level he would be when he did so. His dialog in the strip I linked requires him to be level 14 because that's the only level where he'd have just learned Neutralize Poison at last level up.
    Last edited by unbeliever536; 2017-06-06 at 12:20 PM.
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  25. - Top - End - #775
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    I haven't been following closely, so this might be duplication or something else foolish, but should we consider thread 1075 evidence that Roy has Improved Bull Rush (no opportunity attack from the giant)?

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Black Egg View Post
    I haven't been following closely, so this might be duplication or something else foolish, but should we consider thread 1075 evidence that Roy has Improved Bull Rush (no opportunity attack from the giant)?
    If I'm reading the rules right (and that's big if), now that the formerly stable floor has suddenly become a "slopped or angled floor", means that (if we assume the giant doesn't have sufficient ranks in Balance) she is now flat-footed and cannot make OAs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dsollen View Post
    Opps...

    Still, that still puts Belkar's level at 14 which should be specified.


    In other news, can we put Roy's STR as 29? He says in today's strip that the giant is as strong as him, and frost giant's have a strength of 29 so if we take his statement literally he would need to match that strength.
    The giant is probably fatigued (-2 strength), which means a strength score of 27 (being barbarian means that she would have the elite array and a strength score a bit higher, but let's assume a strength score of an ordinary frost giant). A strength score of 27 grants a modifier of +8, which is on par with Roy having a score of 26-27. If he started with a score of 17 or 18, put 3 points into strength and his belt grants a bonus of +6, this means we need to update Roy's strength to 26-27. He said "she's a strong as i am", which means no more room for debate.

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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Keldon View Post
    The giant is probably fatigued (-2 strength)
    Source?
    Quote Originally Posted by Keldon View Post
    He said "she's a strong as i am", which means no more room for debate.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    If I'm reading the rules right (and that's big if), now that the formerly stable floor has suddenly become a "slopped or angled floor", means that (if we assume the giant doesn't have sufficient ranks in Balance) she is now flat-footed and cannot make OAs.

    GW
    Agreed. In fact, that's a pretty good reading of Bandana's plan, and why Roy thought it wouldn't work.
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    Default Re: Class and Level Geekery XIV - We are the Geek Pantheon

    I don't know; this is a very poorly written rule. "Balancing" is never defined by the rule, and I see two reasonable possibilities. If it means "making a Balance check," then the frost giant isn't balancing (and hence not flat-footed) until she tries to take an action (i.e., tries to move) that requires a balance check. If "Balancing" means "standing somewhere that would require a Balance check to move," then she would be flat-footed.

    The latter makes more sense to me, but not so much that I'd think the former interpretation flat out wrong.

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