Always in the northern hemisphere...

[Eladrinstar]

Why in the vast majority of fantasy settings is the main continent or land in the northen half of the planet. I know we have more landmass in the north in our own planet but I see nothing that says earth-clones have to be any different.

Is it that hard to make cold south and hot north? Why do I never see that in a published fantasy book?

About 5 years ago in middle school my friend did an assignment for extra credit in geography. It was to draw a map of an imaginary continent. She drew tropical grasslands in the north and tundra in the south. The geography teacher got mad at her. "Didn't you learn anything in this class?" She was really sad until I gave her a marker. So she drew the outline of her continent in the south pacific and wrote, "Southern Hemisphere. Who hired you to teach geography?"

[bosssmiley]

Counter-argument: this obscure little setting called Dragonlance. Warm up north, cold down south.

Why have the cold bit to the north? Well, it's a verisimilitude thing. The vast majority of RPG writers and gamers live in the northern hemisphere (which - as you may be aware - is cold at the top and warm at the bottom). Perhaps subconsciously people retain and act upon RL cliches like 'the frozen northlands', 'the burning south' when they come to write up their game worlds.

Can any of our southern hemisphere buddies comment on whether they they go along with the septentronian hegemony, or do they automatically put the cold bit at the bottom of their maps?

Of course, having a system like the medieval Hereford mappa mundi can play Hob with your players' sense of direction. Have East/sunriseward at the top of your next campaign map for retro medievalist win.

[JellyPooga]

I always thought it tended to get cold in both the North and South and warm in the middle...you know, round the equator...

[Eladrinstar]

Dragonlance. I actually checked with a friend. He said it was northern hemisphere. *checks wikipedia* Conclusion: My friend has no idea what he is talking about.

And Jelly Pooga, I mean with in context of one continent. As in, it is freezing in the north of Faerun, tropical down south.

[Caewil]

Well, I would say the reason is that people who draw maps always draw their country on top. Wherever the most countries are, will be where the concensus of where to put the top. North and South have no real basis (for which one should be on top)- they are in fact interchangeable.

Spoiler

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[Please don't cause horizontal scrolling with huge pictures. Thanks.]

They sell these maps in Australia, you know.

[The Great Skenardo]

I think the Boss Egg is right on this one: I believe that you can only mess with people's expectations so much in any given setting before it just becomes confusing. In another sense, it's building upon a sort of norm in the literature.

Take orcs, for example. No matter if we're talking about Warcraft, D&D, or any one of a billion other fantasy worlds, Orcs are characterized by great strength, brutality, and usually tribal characteristics. Sure, if an aspiring author wished, he could create a race of green-skinned, tusked giants with great strength and call them something entirely different, like "Trunchkin," but if you're reaching for something to fill that niche, it's just as easy to access all that common background by calling them "orcs."

I think it's similar for North = Cold and South = Hot. You could, if you wanted, arbitrarily say that the further West you go, the colder it gets, but this messes with the expectations of your audience, introducing an element of confusion that adds very little to your setting. A direction by any other name would still lead you to glaciers and cuddly white polar bears.

[bosssmiley]

North and South have no real basis (for which one should be on top)- they are in fact interchangeable.

Errrr, does the above still apply given the existence of magnetic north?

How do compasses act down south anyway? Do they orient themselves on the southern pole below the equator?

You might want to wrap [ spoiler ] [ /spoiler ] tags around that map Arachnid, it'll stop it from stretching the page out of shape.

[Eladrinstar]

A direction by any other name would still lead you to glaciers and cuddly white polar bears.

Or penguins.

That map is dizzying. It makes me feel vertigo. I don't know why, but when I flip through on atlas upside down it does that.

[Lord Tataraus]

Ah yes, I too have wondered this from time to time, but then I decided on two important facts: (1) common is not English (or whatever your first language is) and therefore the word "north" refers to "the direction that takes you to colder places", and this is true for other directions as well. (2) does it really matter? what do you use the cardinal directions for? only to clarify that the BBEG's castle is up on the map and the dragon's lair is west, both of which you could change to 'up' and 'right' respectively (provided you have a visual map or in game reference point) and this brings up the point that Arachnid brought up, the perspective changes based on your location.

[Rad]

Errrr, does the above still apply given the existence of magnetic north?

How do compasses act down south anyway? Do they orient themselves on the southern pole below the equator?

Compasses work in the exact same way everywhere: they point the north pole.
You can think the magnetic field as represented by a bunch of lines starting from the (magnetic) north pole and going down all the way to the south pole; your compass senses those lines and keeps itself parallel to them.

[Kurald Galain]

Base your world on Terry Pratchett's Discworld. It doesn't even have a north.

[Seffbasilisk]

Hubward replaces north.

[Jack Mann]

Compasses work in the exact same way everywhere: they point the north pole.
You can think the magnetic field as represented by a bunch of lines starting from the (magnetic) north pole and going down all the way to the south pole; your compass senses those lines and keeps itself parallel to them.

Actually, it depends on how the compass is made. It's quite possible to create a compass that points south. Indeed, some of the earliest examples of magnets were south-oriented. It depends on whether or not the longer end is the north or the south pole of the magnet.

[bosssmiley]

Compasses work in the exact same way everywhere: they point the north pole.
You can think the magnetic field as represented by a bunch of lines starting from the (magnetic) north pole and going down all the way to the south pole; your compass senses those lines and keeps itself parallel to them.

*Duh?* I think I just had a moment of profound geophysical dumb. Forgot that the magnetic axis of the earth acts as one giant magnet (not two).

Cheers for the clarification Rad. Now get back in that Nucleus of the Spheres where you belong.

[adanedhel9]

Neither of my campaign worlds had the north being colder. The first world, the setting was deliberately in the southern hemisphere. I can't tell you the exact reason why I made it like that; I suspect it was just to be different.

My second campaign world didn't really start with any overall thoughts on climate or position within an earth-like sphere. I randomly drew a map, and then I started populating it. As I went, regional climates sprang up, and I ended up with the coldest regions being in the southeast, and the warmest in the northwest.

Now, I've been thinking of reorienting the map so that these climates map more directly to real-world expectations (eg that north is cold), but I think that would cause more confusion than it's worth, as my players have been seeing that map for a long time.

[Xuincherguixe]

Well, most of these settings if not an out right parallel, are based on Medieval Europe right? So we've got that going.

Even if the game is to draw on different culture, most of the land is in the Northern Hemisphere anyways. And perhaps most important of all is that the most major civilizations (which inter acted with each other) were in there.

In fact, the only powerhouse civilization I can think of that was in the southern hemisphere has been the Inca one (The Maya might have been that far south too)


Now then, there is no particular reason why one can't do something like place the capital of an empire in a place, and orient the world maps that way. There may be more people 'south'

Of course, the world might have an orientation for a reason. The gods may have pointed things in a certain way.

[Rad]

Actually, it depends on how the compass is made. It's quite possible to create a compass that points south. Indeed, some of the earliest examples of magnets were south-oriented. It depends on whether or not the longer end is the north or the south pole of the magnet.

... actually, it depends on what you write on the magnet. They are usually of the same length because to be free to rotate it needs to be balanced.

Back to game worlds, Mystara is a full planet, southern glaciers included (but with a surprise). Admittedly, the first "known Worls" setting was on the northern hemisphere as well, but the world got completed later.

Cheers for the clarification Rad. Now get back in that Nucleus of the Spheres where you belong.

I got out ages ago! ever heard of Mark of Amber?

[Jack Mann]

Mainly, I was just trying to say that they point south as much as they point north, so which you consider up or down is going to be fairly arbitrary.

[Peregrine]

I'm Australian. I live and breathe southern hemisphere conventions every day. South is cold, north is hot, Christmas is summer.

Sit me down looking at a fantasy setting and all that goes out the window.

I've been conditioned, it seems, to the usual, northern-hemisphere fantasy conventions. It bugs me even worse when I'm world-building, because I do it then too even though I should know better. In my current mapping project (as in most of them), I'm working on a complete world... but my first continents, the expected focus of initial action, are in the north. (I take some small comfort from the fact that, according to my rough sketch of how this world is laid out, the south has the major land masses.)

Some notes on compasses though. They don't point 'north' or 'south', they point north-south. Every magnet has two poles, north and south. Compasses align themselves along that axis. It's mere convention to say that a compass 'points north', to colour in the north-pointing end of the compass (actually the compass's own south pole -- opposites attract) and to treat north as 'up'. Just like with that map posted earlier.

Actually it makes a bit more sense in this hemisphere, or so it seems to me. The sun moves across the northern half of the sky. If you're using a watch as a substitute compass, you'll find north (and so south is behind you). In the northern hemisphere, you'd find south (and so north is behind you), which is the opposite of the compass convention.

[Callix]

Peregrine: Greetings, brother Aussie.
Everyone else: A magnet orients into a line. Which way on the line is called Up is arbitrary. Most maps make north Up, but a map with south Up is still useful.

If I really wanted to screw with people's heads, I'd point out that, since the north pole of a magnet is the one that points north when allowed to orient itself, and that opposite poles attract, that the north pole is actually a magnetic south pole. That's right. The north pole of the Earth, one big bar magnet, is in the southern hemisphere.

[ocato]

It is also highly theorized that the magnetic axi of the earth shift in polarity every couple hundred thousand years or so.

Also, that map of the world that is upside down?

That strikes my self-important American mind as witch craft. We're on top! Us!



!!

[Maglor_Grubb]

Simple. Fantasy is not about realism or actual happenings, but more about symbolism and literary archetypes. Fantasy is a product of a development of 99% European/Western cultures and genres. It does not exist on its own. The archetypes (frozen north with evil and barbarism; woods being spooky and magical, places outside civilization; elephants being exotic; people in armor on horses being noble) are all from this. Themes and standard characters are drawn from myths, reflecting northern cultures, creatures come from conventions from northern cultures... Fantasy is a product of, a part of and thus reflects European/western/northern hemisphere cultures.

[Dervag]

Well, most of these settings if not an out right parallel, are based on Medieval Europe right? So we've got that going.

Even if the game is to draw on different culture, most of the land is in the Northern Hemisphere anyways. And perhaps most important of all is that the most major civilizations (which inter acted with each other) were in there.

True as long as the world is supposed to be a sort of parody/echo of medieval Earth. But it doesn't have to be. For instance, there's no obvious reason why the gods couldn't just decide to turn the planet upside down one day because it amuses them to have the continents in the southern hemisphere.

In fact, the only powerhouse civilization I can think of that was in the southern hemisphere has been the Inca one (The Maya might have been that far south too)

They weren't; the Maya territory was mostly in modern-day Mexico and Guatemala, both countries that are entirely above the equator.

Now then, there is no particular reason why one can't do something like place the capital of an empire in a place, and orient the world maps that way. There may be more people 'south'

Medieval maps usually worked that way. The center of most medieval European maps was actually Jerusalem, because that holy city was regarded as the spiritual center of the world by medieval Christian mapmakers.

Of course, medieval maps were as much a guide to the spiritual order of the world as they were to the physical shape of the world. They were often meant as a guide to prayer or religious contemplation, and were practically never expected to be photorealistic pictures of how the Earth would appear from space. This is why most medieval maps look really stupid to us today; we're looking at them as if they were pictures from space, rather than as prayer guides. It wasn't until the 1300s and 1400s that navigators started putting together maps that accurately described the coastlines and important cities in a photorealistic sense.

And that lends itself neatly to your point:

Of course, the world might have an orientation for a reason. The gods may have pointed things in a certain way.

And it may be more important to the mapmaker to represent the way the god(s) pointed the world than to show City A as being northeast of City B, rather than being northwest.

Errrr, does the above still apply given the existence of magnetic north?

Yes. The earth has a magnetic field that points along lines that run in big ovals through the earth's axis, out one pole, around into space, and back into the other pole. Each set of those field lines looks kind of like a gigantic donut; you can look at examples that depict the field here.

A compass is a little gadget that aligns itself along the lines of the local magnetic field. In the southern hemisphere, compasses point along the magnetic field: that is, they point along the big ovals and to the north, just like in the northern hemisphere. A compass free to move in three dimensions will actually wind up pointing at some angle to the ground, because the field lines don't follow the Earth's surface. They angle through it.

Because compasses were the first application of magnetism that humans invented, we defined the "north" and "south" poles of a magnet so that the "north" pole is the one that corresponds to the north magnetic pole of the Earth and the south pole is the one that corresponds to the south magnetic pole.

However, the direction we draw magnetic field lines is arbitrary. Everyone agrees to use the arbitration, but there's no reason we couldn't draw them the other way. In fact, if Benjamin Franklin had gotten a guess right in the 1700s, we would draw them the other way.*

Therefore, it's more or less arbitrary which pole we call 'north' and which is 'south'. North and south are just two words; neither of them is inherently 'up' and the other 'down.' North/south and up/down are completely different directions.

*Benjamin Franklin guessed that the flow of electric current was an avalanche of little electrically charged particles. He knew that there were two kinds of opposite charges. And except that they were opposite, he couldn't tell which was which, because a charge of one kind going one way looks just like a charge of the other kind going the other way.

So he guessed that the moving charges in an electric current were of one type (call it type A), and called that type 'positive'. Physicists learned to think of current as a flow of 'positive' charges, regarding the other kind of charge (call it type B) as 'negative': a sort of 'anti-charge'.

Then, in the mid-1800s, a guy named Edwin Hall figured out how to find out the sign of the actual bits of charge that were moving in an actual electric current. And it turned out that the actual bits of moving charge (the electrons) were type B: the negative charges. So Franklin had guessed wrong, and the sign convention created by his guess has stuck with us for the past two hundred years.

The direction of magnetic field lines is implied by the signs of electric charges. So if Benjamin Franklin had guessed correctly, we would draw the magnetic field lines pointing 'north' to 'south' instead of the other way around.

[Selv]

Science!

Hurray!

Of course, another solution is just to draw your map as your vision goes, then stick on a compas-rose in the corner with the following cardinals: Up, Down, Strange, Charm.

If you are sticking with globes, then you have the old atronomy rules of more pronounced seasonal variation in the colder parts, and maybe some aurora borealis/austalis. Of course, maybe the climatic gradient in your world is because compass directions point towards or away the elemental plane of fire, I don't know.

[Wehrkind]

I personally love how people get upset because their country is "under" other countries, and want to have theirs be at the top of the map. Just one of those funny things that matters not at all, but people seem compelled to make it a problem.

In game though, if you want to mess with your players a bit, start giving them maps that change the position of the cardinal directions, and leave the compass roses off. So long as they have a few points of reference they should be able to piece it together, but it makes for a fun puzzle to have to reference locations on 3-4 different partial maps in different directions to find places.

[Tallis]

North is usually cold and south hot for the simple reason that the majority of RP game designers and players are from the northern hemisphere.
I created a campaign setting once that had the south as the cold area and north hot. I scrapped it. It added a level of complication and confusion for my northern hemisphere players that was unecessary while adding nothing to the game.
If you want to create your setting in the southern hemisphere there is absolutely nothing wrong with that, but ask yourself what it will add to the game. I'd only do it if there was some particular reason that it neede to be that way.
Were I playing in South Africa or Australia I would not be at all surprised to find a campaign set in the southern hemisphere because it would be "normal" in those places. Having certain basic assumptions about the world be true help make it more believable and easier for the players to immerse themselves in, in my opinion.

[Soepvork]

It is also highly theorized that the magnetic axi of the earth shift in polarity every couple hundred thousand years or so.

Also, that map of the world that is upside down?

That strikes my self-important American mind as witch craft. We're on top! Us!



!!

Just another added surpise for your self-important American mind:

Ever noticed how "traditional" world maps have Europe in the middle? That's pretty much the result of the same reasoning: people like to display their own land in the middle of the map

[Indon]

I'd like to toss in another wacky hypothesis into the 'Northern Wastes' discussion.

The northern hemisphere, by virtue of having much more inhabited land further towards its' pole, demonstrates a larger temperature range. Much of the extreme cold climate of the southern hemisphere is found on a continent in which very few humans live; Antarctica.

As a result, more individuals associate the northern hemisphere with a wider climate range; thus, a continent with a wide climate range is more likely to be stuck in the north side of the map.

[Erom]

I think the thread has summed this one up pretty well - but if you really want to think outside the box, don't just flip cold and hot regions north-south: Point the axis of rotation of your planet right at it's star. Then, there is no night and day, "north" is "sun goes higher in the sky" and quickly becomes metal-meltingly hot if you go too far, and "south" is "sun goes down, permanent night and freezing cold".

Or even put your planet in a multi-star system! Here's a fun one- a planet at the gravitational center of a system, with three equally sized stars rotating around it. Permanent light, with 3 "bright" and 3 "dim" periods per day. Highly unstable gravitational system in real life, but hey, you are making this up.

[Gaelbert]

Dragonlance is in the south. I learned this after trying to write a short story about some keep in Nordmaar, and then realizing basically everything I had was wrong.