Cantrip - Hurl Weapon (PEACH)

[LordFluffy]

Hurl Weapon
Transmutation Cantrip (Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 10'
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

With a wave of your hand, you launch a bolt, arrow, dart, or weapon with the Thrown property at a target, making an Attack using your spellcasting statistic in place of Strength or Dexterity, both for to hit and damage rolls. Any relevant abilities (such as fighting style) or feats (such as Sharpshooter) may be applied as if it were a regular attack action. The ammunition or weapon used by this spell must either be on your person, in your hand or in a quiver/case/similar device, or lying unattended within 10' of the caster. The weapon launches from it's current location as if it were thrown, shot from a light crossbow, or shot from a shortbow, using the ranges for the respective weapon.

You may hurl a second weapon 5th level, a third at 11th level, and a fourth at 17th level. You do not need to hurl all of them at the same target.

Notes: This is based of the 3.5 cantrip Launch Bolt

[Final Hyena]

On the one hand this goes against the general idea of a cantrip being as good as a weapon (without additional features), but the range is very short.

It seems reasonably well balanced, and it's thematically fun.

One thought, does it make the attacks bypass magic resistance?

Edit; Also not sure if Bards should get it.

[LordFluffy]

On the one hand this goes against the general idea of a cantrip being as good as a weapon (without additional features), but the range is very short.

The idea is that it's 10' to the weapon, but the weapon uses it's normal ranges after that, so it should be exactly as good as the weapon. :)

One thought, does it make the attacks bypass magic resistance?

Not as such. Only if the weapon you're launching is magical.

Edit; Also not sure if Bards should get it.

I'm iffy on it to, but a Bard playing his flute and sending a dagger to do his will feels right enough. They get Animate Objects, which this is basically a lesser version of.

[Final Hyena]

The idea is that it's 10' to the weapon, but the weapon uses it's normal ranges after that, so it should be exactly as good as the weapon. :)

D8 + spellcasting stat to damage within 80/320 range is better than any other cantrip.

Not as such. Only if the weapon you're launching is magical.

This limits its late game use.

I'm iffy on it to, but a Bard playing his flute and sending a dagger to do his will feels right enough. They get Animate Objects, which this is basically a lesser version of.

The doubt in my mind is from the existing cantrip list. Is the limited damage cantrips available a result of a desire to avoid higher damage options, or is it just that they didn't fit the class theme.

Perhaps just doing the weapon damage without a stat is enough as you have the advantage of being able to divide it up and avoid sinking wasted damage, but give weapons used during the spell the ability to bypass magic.

[LordFluffy]

D8 + spellcasting stat to damage within 80/320 range is better than any other cantrip.

At 2nd level, Eldritch Blast is doing d10 + stat Force, 120ft range w/o disad, requires no ammunition. I'd say that "better" is arguable.

This limits its late game use.

By that point, the caster has other options.

The doubt in my mind is from the existing cantrip list. Is the limited damage cantrips available a result of a desire to avoid higher damage options, or is it just that they didn't fit the class theme.

Arguable, but this is the kind of feedback I'm looking for.

Perhaps just doing the weapon damage without a stat is enough as you have the advantage of being able to divide it up and avoid sinking wasted damage, but give weapons used during the spell the ability to bypass magic.

I don't know. I'm not giving the caster anything an archer at the same level wouldn't have. This was intended as a option rather than a replacement. At that point, just have firebolt (d10, 120' range, relevant damage type)

[Final Hyena]

At 2nd level, Eldritch Blast is doing d10 + stat Force, 120ft range w/o disad, requires no ammunition. I'd say that "better" is arguable.

Eldritch blast is 1d10 force damage, the extra stat to damage is an additional class feature. In your spell it is not.
Secondly Eldritch blast is powerful and it makes up for the warlocks few spells, multiple parts of the class are based around that cantrip which is unique to him. Your spell is not.

I don't know. I'm not giving the caster anything an archer at the same level wouldn't have. This was intended as a option rather than a replacement. At that point, just have firebolt (d10, 120' range, relevant damage type)

But he's not an archer he's a caster. That's the point. It would be like saying I'm giving the wizard d12 HD because it's nothing the barbarian doesn't get.

[manny2510]

It feels better than eldritch blast. I would feel comfortable allowing this cantrip to all classes. Another thing is that this is actually limited by ammunition.

[JNAProductions]

It feels better than eldritch blast. I would feel comfortable allowing this cantrip to all classes. Another thing is that this is actually limited by ammunition.

It's literally one point of DPR behind Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast (though admittedly of an inferior damage type) so yeah, I'd say it's too powerful.

[manny2510]

It's literally one point of DPR behind Eldritch Blast with Agonizing Blast (though admittedly of an inferior damage type) so yeah, I'd say it's too powerful.

I'm reducing all weapon damage to 1d2 then, as they're clumsily tossed. Fixed.

[JNAProductions]

I'm reducing all weapon damage to 1d2 then, as they're clumsily tossed. Fixed.

See, I just wouldn't allow a stat mod. Then it's just a 1d8 cantrip with the potential to have some great advantages via magic weapons.

[PotatoGolem]

Could be reduced to a d6, but seems largely fair. After around level 5, nonmagical piercing will be resisted a lot. I've yet to encounter magic arrows/bolts in 5e, although that may be just the campaigns I play

[manny2510]

See, I just wouldn't allow a stat mod. Then it's just a 1d8 cantrip with the potential to have some great advantages via magic weapons.

No. Cantrips are skill based and are the results of practice and repetition. The casting stat makes sense to me.

[JNAProductions]

So they're clumsily hurled (1d2 damage) but skill still applies? That seems a little bass-ackwards.

[R.Shackleford]

Hurl Weapon
Transmutation Cantrip (Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 10'
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

With a wave of your hand, you launch a bolt, arrow, dart, or weapon with the Thrown property at a target, making an Attack using your spellcasting statistic in place of Strength or Dexterity, both for to hit and damage rolls. Any relevant abilities (such as fighting style) or feats (such as Sharpshooter) may be applied as if it were a regular attack action. The ammunition or weapon used by this spell must either be on your person, in your hand or in a quiver/case/similar device, or lying unattended within 10' of the caster. The weapon launches from it's current location as if it were thrown, shot from a light crossbow, or shot from a shortbow, using the ranges for the respective weapon.

You may hurl a second weapon 5th level, a third at 11th level, and a fourth at 17th level. You do not need to hurl all of them at the same target.

Notes: This is based of the 3.5 cantrip Launch Bolt

My take on this...

Hurl Weapon
Transmutation Cantrip (Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 10'
Components: V, S, M (A piece of ammunition or a weapon)
Duration: Instantaneous

You wave your hand and the material component is hurled at an enemy within 60' and deals 1d8 points of damage. A successful Dexterity save negates this damage.

The type of damage this cantrip deals is dependant on the ammo or weapon type.

At level 5, 11, and 17 you may use one additional piece of ammo or one additional weapon when casting this spell. You may target the same creature or a different creature with each piece when you cast this cantrip.

***

I'm not sure if I should make the damage magical or not. On one side yes but really the magic is just throwing a nonmagical object so it doesn't make sense fluff wise.

Allowing feats to be used with this spell is unbalanced... Why be a martial when you can just be a caster and be just as good with weapons?

Also, dexterity save because Catapult exists and is based off a Dexterity save.

[Fizban]

The actual thrown weapons and ammunition only deal 1d4/1d6, it's only 1d8 and long range if you shoot it like a bow. The 3.5 cantrip could do that because basic ranged attacks were terrible when in 5e they're not, and Launch Bolt didn't actually give you casting stat on anything either.

Use thrown/ammunition only, as thrown, with stat to attack but not to damage like the other cantrips. Also no feats or other features as mentioned. The fact that you're also moving an item somewhere else is potentially useful, and for games that throw out magic items like candy, or invent alchemical items, or allow McGuyvering, the spell should be just fine.

Now if you want a good 3.5 cantrip, Launch Item is where it's at. That was for range, but here it'd be useful instead to undo the nerfs they threw at acid/alchemist's fire. Throw with actual bonuses so you're not wasting your gold, at high levels you can afford to buy tons of the stuff and have a somewhat more powerful cantrip.

[R.Shackleford]

Now if you want a good 3.5 cantrip, Launch Item is where it's at. That was for range, but here it'd be useful instead to undo the nerfs they threw at acid/alchemist's fire. Throw with actual bonuses so you're not wasting your gold, at high levels you can afford to buy tons of the stuff and have a somewhat more powerful cantrip.

Launch item was turned into a first level spell called catapult. Actually a great spell, especially when you realize it keeps going until it hits something.

I'm surprised they didn't make it a cantrip. The cantrip I made above could work as a launch item, just replace weapon with an item weighing 1 to 5 lbs.

[LordFluffy]

Re: Balance issues
I was thinking about this over the weekend; I might limit it to Warlocks.

At that point, it becomes an alternative to Agonizing Eldritch Blast; not quite as good, but without the Invocation tax, which opens up space for more interesting choices at lower levels.

Re: Reflex save
I'm iffy on this. I could maybe see leaving it to a wider set of casters but ref save for 1/2 damage, but making it save and take nothing kind of goes against what I was shooting for, I think.

[R.Shackleford]

Re: Balance issues
I was thinking about this over the weekend; I might limit it to Warlocks.

At that point, it becomes an alternative to Agonizing Eldritch Blast; not quite as good, but without the Invocation tax, which opens up space for more interesting choices at lower levels.

Re: Reflex save
I'm iffy on this. I could maybe see leaving it to a wider set of casters but ref save for 1/2 damage, but making it save and take nothing kind of goes against what I was shooting for, I think.

Fluff wise, why would it only be warlocks?

Also making/giving a cantrip to a class that keeps up with another cantrip PLUS a class feature is no way to balance said cantrip.

Ref negates is the way to go, catapult already works this way except catapult would keep going for 90'.

You seem to be balancing toward first level spell/stand alone class feature and making it overly complicated. That isn't a good sign :(.

[manny2510]

So they're clumsily hurled (1d2 damage) but skill still applies? That seems a little bass-ackwards.

Yup. Wonderful right?

[LordFluffy]

Fluff wise, why would it only be warlocks?

Hadn't gotten that far yet. The design was an adpatation; balancing so far has top down.

Also making/giving a cantrip to a class that keeps up with another cantrip PLUS a class feature is no way to balance said cantrip.

It's strictly inferior. It requires ammunition, weapon damage types are more easily countered than force, and does less damage than EB w/AgB (average damage on a d8 weapon would be 4.5 vs. 5.5). Yes, it doesn't require an invocation, but it doesn't benefit from any of them either (whereas AgB is only one of three that boosts EB).

I'd put them on par, but I wouldn't say that my suggestion is better.

Ref negates is the way to go, catapult already works this way except catapult would keep going for 90'.

I'll look at it again, but I'm iffy. It's not what I was going for.

You seem to be balancing toward first level spell/stand alone class feature and making it overly complicated. That isn't a good sign :(.

I'm measuring it against something already in the game, yes, but how is it overly complicated? You use a spell to make an attack, using your casting stat. That seems awfully simple to me.

I'm more concerned about balancing it against archers, really, than against other spellcasters; that's where I'm worried it's too good.

[JNAProductions]

The issue is, archers are better at at-will DPR than casters are (excepting Agonizing Blast Warlocks). So balancing it against archers is overpowered.

[LordFluffy]

The issue is, archers are better at at-will DPR than casters are (excepting Agonizing Blast Warlocks). So balancing it against archers is overpowered.

When I say balancing against archers, I'm making sure that I'm not overtaking them with this.

[LordFluffy]

Okay, looking at fighters, I think you'd end up being a better archer by taking this spell, mostly because you'd have a 4th attack (minus action surge) a level faster. With that in mind and the above criticisms, here's a revision. The main change is that you don't get the stat boost to damage until 5th level and that you only get 3 total attacks with it by 17th. I've also added some clarifications on what can be targeted.

As for comparing it to Catapult, which is a very good spell, catapult isn't intended to be aimed, hence the Dex save, so I don't think that's appropriate here. I've kept the list of classes (I like the idea of a mandolin playing bard using this spell instead of his bow).

Hurl Weapon
Transmutation Cantrip (Bard, Wizard, Sorcerer, Warlock)
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 10'
Components: V, S
Duration: Instantaneous

With a wave of your hand, you launch a bolt, arrow, dart, or weapon with the Thrown property at a target, making an Attack using your spellcasting statistic in place of Strength or Dexterity for the to hit roll. Any relevant abilities (such as fighting style) or feats (such as Sharpshooter) may be applied as if it were a regular attack action. The ammunition or weapon used by this spell must either be on your person (in your hand or in a quiver/case/similar device) or unattended and within 10' of the caster. Weapons or ammunition held by other creatures cannot be targeted by this spell. The weapon launches from it's current location as if it were thrown, shot from a light crossbow, or shot from a shortbow, using the ranges for the respective weapon. Ammunition is expended or lost as if it were fired from a normal weapon.

At 5th level you may add your spellcasting statistic into the damage roll for the weapon or ammunition. At 11th level you may hurl a second weapon or piece of ammunition, and a third at 17th level; You do not need to hurl all of them at the same target.

[Oramac]

I'm not sure why this spell is so complicated.

If I were a Wizard and wanted to throw my dagger, I throw my dagger and it deals the dagger's damage (1d4).

If I want to magically throw my dagger, I magically throw my dagger and it does the dagger's damage (1d4).

The only real question is whether or not to include the spellcasting modifier in the magical throw's damage. As a dagger thrown using Dex includes the Dex bonus for damage, I would be inclined to use the spellcasting modifer for damage on the magical throw as well.

Honestly, other than flavor for a caster, there's really no reason for a spell like this to even exist.

[Machiknight]

I can see lots of interesting reasons for this spell to exist. Carry around a quiver like Hawkeye, that has lots of different damage types or effects for the arrows, get more versatility at the cost of s singlele cantrip.

I would allow the stat bonus to damage, but not have it count as magical. The weapon itself must BE magical for it to count.

I would also drop the damage die down a notch to reflect that it isn't being used properly. Arrow becomes 1d6 etc.

I really like this cantrip, makes me think of Yondu from guardians of the galaxy.

[LordFluffy]

I'm not sure why this spell is so complicated.

If I were a Wizard and wanted to throw my dagger, I throw my dagger and it deals the dagger's damage (1d4).

If I want to magically throw my dagger, I magically throw my dagger and it does the dagger's damage (1d4).

The only real question is whether or not to include the spellcasting modifier in the magical throw's damage. As a dagger thrown using Dex includes the Dex bonus for damage, I would be inclined to use the spellcasting modifer for damage on the magical throw as well.

Honestly, other than flavor for a caster, there's really no reason for a spell like this to even exist.

In 3.5, there was a cantrip "Lauch Bolt" that let you hurl a bolt like it was fired from a light crossbow. I'm trying to make a 5e version. That's the point.

The problem with the way I had it written at first (w/int damage) was that it put spellcasters on par with Fighters as archers, allowed them to make more attacks earlier. I scaled it back a bit to make it an option rather than a go to.

[cyberman09]

seems balanced