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Thread: Monkey Grip

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    Default Monkey Grip

    It has come to my attention that I may not understand the inner workings of this feat.

    From my understanding, in a nutshell, it allows you to take -2 to attack to grip a weapon one size catagory larger then normal.
    To me, this seems very useful for offensive-oriented characters with good to-hit and feats to spare, such as fighters.
    Combined with weapons such as a fullblade and abilities like powerful build, it allows you to get a very big weapon.

    Other thoughts on this matter? Is this feat wroth it? Am I an idiot?

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    It seems good until you compare it to power attack. With monkey grip you never get the same return that PA gives. And you can't turn it off (or turn it up if you need more damage). Take a greatsword for example, you go from medium to large and you base damage goes from 2d6 to 3d6, or 3.5 points on average, less than the return of 4 for power attacking for 2 with a 2 handed weapon. Then you start adding in ways to boost power attack return (leap attack I'm looking at you) and it just gets worse and worse for monkey grip.
    Ninja'd a million times I am sure.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Compare it to Power Attack. If you do the math, you'll find that you have to get a very big weapon indeed before Monkey Grip gets you significantly more bonus damage for your -2 penalty than Power Attack does with any two handed weapon. In fact, even with a greatsword Monkey Grip actually gives you less extra damage for a medium sized creature than Power Attacking for -2 does. If you're a giant of some sort or otherwise at least Huge size, then you might be able to get a useful amount of damage from the size increase of your weapon. Otherwise, Monkey Grip at its absolute best is only marginally better than Power Attack and can't be turned off when you really need the extra accuracy.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.
    Add in this little gem and it makes you wonder why there's a feat at all

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    The feat lets you do it without increasing the effort required. Without Monkey Grip, a medium character wields a large longsword as a two-handed weapon and can't use a large greatsword at all. With MG, the longsword is still one-handed and the greatsword is wieldable as a two-hander.

    Still not a good trade-off unless you expect to be multiple size categories larger most of the time you're using that weapon.
    Last edited by Douglas; 2007-06-25 at 11:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Basically, all you need to know about Monkey Grip is that your spending a feat to give your character a disadavtage. At best you'll only get 2-4 extra damage out of it, for the price of -2 to attack that you can never get rid of, not to mention that fact that larger weapons are difficult to find.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    There are three places where Monkey Grip is a viable feat:

    1) When increasing a Size Category would increase your weapon damage by either 2d6 or 1d8 (Such as being Huge and using a Greatsword, or being Medium and using a Fullblade), it will increase your damage +4.5 (for the 1d8) or +7 (for the 2d6) for a -2 penalty. This is not taking into considering the uses of Improved Power Attack feats.

    2) When your build is based off size effects, such as Tripping - according to the Wizard's website, you use the size of the weapon no matter how you're using it, so using Monkey Grip will give you a +4 bonus to trip attempts etc with it, as it's a size larger.

    3) Style. If you wanna be an Anime Fighter, take it.

    PS - Monkey Grip and Powerful Build don't stack, they both do the same effect specifically, and thus don't combine - allowing a character to use a weapon one size larger than themselves.

    Gar. Ninja'd
    Last edited by Wih; 2007-06-26 at 12:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Monkey Grip and Powerful Build don't stack! They each do the same thing, and only stack with things that increase your ACTUAL size. See here.

    Also, the Fullblade is 3.0, not 3.5, so how it works with PB or Monkey Grip is debatable.
    Last edited by RTGoodman; 2007-06-26 at 12:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Of course, something I've been mulling over is this:

    If you Monkey Grip say, a Large spiked chain, do you get the larger weapon's extended reach? Would you threaten every square within 15' due to the increase in the weapon's size?

    If so, it might be a good idea after all in some isolated cases.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Karsh - No. Reach is based on size of yourself, not your weapon.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Quote Originally Posted by Wih View Post
    There are three places where Monkey Grip is a viable feat:

    1) When increasing a Size Category would increase your weapon damage by either 2d6 or 1d8 (Such as being Huge and using a Greatsword, or being Medium and using a Fullblade), it will increase your damage +4.5 (for the 1d8) or +7 (for the 2d6) for a -2 penalty. This is not taking into considering the uses of Improved Power Attack feats.

    2) When your build is based off size effects, such as Tripping - according to the Wizard's website, you use the size of the weapon no matter how you're using it, so using Monkey Grip will give you a +4 bonus to trip attempts etc with it, as it's a size larger.

    3) Style. If you wanna be an Anime Fighter, take it.
    1) Sure you get slightly more damage then a power attack, but you cannot shake the penalty, no matter what, which isn't worth it when fighting a high AC opponent. Besides, what self repecting warrior doesn't have leap attack and shock tropper?

    2) Those are minor bonuses when compared to an attack bonus penalty, attack bonus is the lifeblood of warriors

    3) The "greatsword" allready includes swords up to including nodachis and zweihanders in size (both of which can easily be as tall as the person who is using them). Anything bigger would be so horrible unbalanced that you'd look like a drunken hobo...or horribly cliched blond spiky haired angsty anti-hero.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    1) Sure you get slightly more damage then a power attack, but you cannot shake the penalty, no matter what, which isn't worth it when fighting a high AC opponent. Besides, what self repecting warrior doesn't have leap attack and shock tropper?
    Yeah, I know you can't turn it off. I personally think it's a bad feat if you're trying to do damage, you don't have to preach to the converted.
    Secondly, unfortunately, not every group appreciates Leap Attack/Shock Trooper. Quite frustratingly, most of my group considers it overpowered at the least, and refuses to let it in play, some for the AC drop of Shock Trooper. However:

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    2) Those are minor bonuses when compared to an attack bonus penalty, attack bonus is the lifeblood of warriors
    I disagree with your reasoning. Taking a -2 to attack in order to gain a +4 bonus to tripping...which lowers the opponent's AC by 4, and gives them a -4 on attacks, or extra damage from an AoO. That is mechanically sound.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    3) The "greatsword" allready includes swords up to including nodachis and zweihanders in size (both of which can easily be as tall as the person who is using them). Anything bigger would be so horrible unbalanced that you'd look like a drunken hobo...or horribly cliched blond spiky haired angsty anti-hero.
    I'm well aware it would make you look like a spiky haired angsty anti-hero. That's why I mentioned Anime in my third point. Some people want to be an Anime character in their games, be it from playing too much FF or watching too much Bleach.
    Last edited by Wih; 2007-06-26 at 12:42 AM.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Monkey Grip is also a good idea if you're a size category smaller then all the loot you find, and you can't find anywhere to make/enchant weapons(and no one in your party can make/enchant weapons for you). Yes that's a very special kind of game/character, but it's still a use for monkey grip.

    Other then that, and the other special cases mentioned, it's pretty bad.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Quote Originally Posted by Wih View Post
    2) When your build is based off size effects, such as Tripping - according to the Wizard's website, you use the size of the weapon no matter how you're using it, so using Monkey Grip will give you a +4 bonus to trip attempts etc with it, as it's a size larger.
    Could you point me to where it says this? Every place I've found where this is specified, it implies the opposite.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Short answer: Try Here. Quite some time ago, I clarified with CustServ wether the use extended to size categories, and from Disarm to other special attacks that function off size modifiers, such as Trip (and the answer was yes), but that was well over a year ago. I'll see if I can drege through my emails to find the one in question.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    lol, Wih, tripping isnt based on weapon size, its based on YOUR size! having a bigger weapon doesnt help you at all...

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkOne View Post
    Monkey Grip is also a good idea if you're a size category smaller then all the loot you find, and you can't find anywhere to make/enchant weapons(and no one in your party can make/enchant weapons for you). Yes that's a very special kind of game/character, but it's still a use for monkey grip.
    You know, you can use a weapon meant for a larger creature without Monkey Grip. Monkey Grip simply lets you treat it as the original size category, instead of one larger.

    Any gnome, for instance, can use a human-sized longsword as a two-handed weapon, or a human-sized dagger as a one-handed weapon. Now if all the loot is comprised of two-handed weapons meant for humans and other Medium sized creatures, you'd need Monkey Grip, yes. But if not...is it really worth a feat when you can do that anyway?

    Quote Originally Posted by Wih View Post
    Short answer: Try Here.
    First, that's for disarm, not trip. Second, the FAQ disagrees with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by FAQ
    When the combat rules speak of “two-handed” weapons, they’re referring to how the weapon is being used. A Medium character using a Medium longsword in two hands is using a “two-handed” weapon. The same character using a Medium lance in one hand while mounted is using a one-handed weapon. Light weapons are an exception. If you wield a light weapon in two hands you get no advantage on damage (see page 113 in the Player’s Handbook). Likewise, you always take a –4 penalty on your opposed roll when you’re wielding a light weapon in a disarm attempt (when someone tries to disarm you or you try to disarm someone) regardless of whether you wield it one- or two-handed.
    Last edited by Jasdoif; 2007-06-26 at 01:26 AM. Reason: Let's elaborate on the second part.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    sleeping fishy, Jasdoif - Read my post. I'm aware the origonal article was about Disarming, however in asking CustServ about it, the answer I got to the query in question was that a larger weapon does give you a larger bonus on Trip/Disarm etc - A Bastard Sword is a 2 handed Martial weapon, giving a +4, Fullblade is a size category larger, giving another +4, etc. As there's some question about this answer, I'll check again with CustServ.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    no, you dont get it: TRIPPING DOESNT USE WEAPON SIZE AT ALL, it doesnt affect it in any way!! trip goes off creature size, a giant using a dagger trips the same as a giant using a monkey gripped fullbldae. besides you seem to be talking about 3.0 weapon size categories.
    Last edited by sleeping fishy; 2007-06-26 at 01:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    The size of your weapon doesn't matter for tripping. There's no difference between tripping with a kama (a light weapon) or a spiked chain (a two-handed weapon. Weapon size does not matter. Read the rules in the combat section of the SRD or your Player's Handbook.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Quote Originally Posted by Wih View Post
    sleeping fishy, Jasdoif - Read my post. I'm aware the origonal article was about Disarming, however in asking CustServ about it, the answer I got to the query in question was that a larger weapon does give you a larger bonus on Trip/Disarm etc - A Bastard Sword is a 2 handed Martial weapon, giving a +4, Fullblade is a size category larger, giving another +4, etc. As there's some question about this answer, I'll check again with CustServ.
    Wait...so your "short answer" wasn't actually an answer, then?

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Quote Originally Posted by sleeping fishy View Post
    no, you dont get it: TRIPPING DOESNT USE WEAPON SIZE AT ALL, it doesnt affect it in any way!! trip goes off creature size, a giant using a dagger trips the same as a giant using a monkey gripped fullbldae. besides you seem to be talking about 3.0 weapon size categories.
    Gods, I feel like an idiot now Yes, I guess I am talking in 3.0 weapon size categories, and rules have changed since then. My bad.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Those darn rule changes can be really sneaky sometimes.

    Anyway, Monkey Grip is...well, sad. Unless you happen to be Huge or Gargantuan with something like a greatsword or greataxe sized for a creature one size larger, there isn't a decent and consistent damage advantage to using it.

    And I think even Cloud's legendary/infamous Buster Sword can be represented by a standard-sized greatsword, there's no need to spend a feat just to get that effect. Might need a proficiency feat for that spiked hair though....

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Monkey Grip would actually be useful if it allowed, say, a small character to use a medium long sword in two hands with no penalty, instead of -2.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    I have found one instance in which Monkey Grip is worthwhile: a mounted charger using a Large lance with Spirited Charge gets a x4 return on his attack and cancels out the penalty for using Monkey Grip with his charge bonus. Further, he can couple it with Power Attack for more death and doom.

    But other than that? Not very good.

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Here's a question regarding possible Monkey Grip-related cheese:

    If you have a feat which allows you to use a bow as a melee weapon as well as a ranged weapon, can you then use that bow in conjunction with Monkey Grip (as it is now a ranged weapon)?

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    First of all Monkey Grip =/= Cheese

    I had a halfling with monkey grip in a long-running campaign. He didn't get much out of it, and he took it purely for flavor (the entire game had an intentional anime feel to it). Having and using Monkey Grip didn't HURT him any though. It's one feat, and its easy to get lots of feats. I for one am a fan of taking a feat for flavor reasons.

    He did have the advantage of being able to wield the mostly medium-sized loot.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Quote Originally Posted by Droodle View Post
    Monkey Grip would actually be useful if it allowed, say, a small character to use a medium long sword in two hands with no penalty, instead of -2.
    This is how I run it - rather than saying "you can use a weapon one size larger than was intended, but with a penalty", I've house-ruled Monkey Grip to just "You can use a weapon one size larger than was intended". My general theory is that if someone's going to go to the lengths of pure cheese to end up with a colossal greatsword one-handed, they're pulling enough cheese to take a Divine DM Smiting anyway. In general, I find the benefits of slightly more damage versus the downsides of NEVER finding weapons of the right size balance themselves out nicely.
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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    One use for the monkey grip feat would be to take it AND power attack, and thus get even more damage than power attack alone. (You can never get enough damage, but it's often easy for a fighter to hit)

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    Default Re: Monkey Grip

    Quote Originally Posted by TheOOB View Post
    1) Sure you get slightly more damage then a power attack, but you cannot shake the penalty, no matter what, which isn't worth it when fighting a high AC opponent. Besides, what self repecting warrior doesn't have leap attack and shock tropper?
    Yes, you can shake the penalty. You switch to a different weapon.

    Monkey Grip sucks because it's a feat and it doesn't scale. If Gloves of Monkey Grip existed, they wouldn't be that bad. The attack bonus penalty is paltry - you can gain it back easily.
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