Sword Beats Spell: Creating the God-Martial

[Cluedrew]

So you may have heard of a little issue called caster-martial disparity. (If not ask and I'm sure someone would be happy to explain it.) Now although this seems to be the most pronounced in D&D 3.5e I have hear references to it in other systems as well, so I'm declaring this as system agnostic. Most people seem to try to fix the problem by bringing the casters down, and in many cases this may be the solution or at least part. But that is not what this conversation is about.

This is about creating the god-martial, that is cranking the martial up as far as it can go. Past the limits of mundane every day physical ability, hopefully all the way up to the point of the god-martial, who can stand beside (or against) the god-wizard without assistance while still identifiably being a martial character.

So that is what I'm going for, to boil it down to one line:
How can we make martial characters stronger without making them not martial?

[Cosi]

It's easy. You just have to accept that they are not mundane. If you can do that, you can write martials that go every bit as far as spellcasters. Consider MTG, specifically planeswalkers. Every planeswalker is a high level character. They travel the planes, fighting gods, eldritch abominations, the borg, and other planeswalkers. Some of them are various types of caster (Chandra is a Pyromancer, Jace is a Psion) but some of them are martials (Elspeth is a Knight, Gideon is a Soldier).

[Frozen_Feet]

Low level? Guns, night-vision goggles, radio.

Mid level? Assault helicopters, main battle tanks.

High level? Nuclear weapons, internet.

[TheCountAlucard]

Play Exalted.

[Fri]

If you say this is system agnostic, just accept that not all non-mundane abilities are dnd style magic. Just that.

For example, in a chinese martial art novel you might find a monk punching the ground and have a fortress of sand rising from it.

You could say "he's not monk, he's actually a wizard and he's using fabricate spell (or whatever dnd spell can do that)"

Or you could accept that he's not in DnD setting, and martial art can do that in that setting.

[The Zoat]

If you say this is system agnostic, just accept that not all non-mundane abilities are dnd style magic. Just that.

For example, in a chinese martial art novel you might find a monk punching the ground and have a fortress of sand rising from it.

You could say "he's not monk, he's actually a wizard and he's using fabricate spell (or whatever dnd spell can do that)"

Or you could accept that he's not in DnD setting, and martial art can do that in that setting.

While that works to an extent, an example one you just gave makes very little sense unless the function of this sand fortress summoning art is explained as somehow supernatural, and then it might as well be magic.

[Fri]

Well yes. It might as well be magic. Jumping 100m to the air also might as well be magic. Punching a castle to dust might as well be magic. At the end, it's all in the description, isn't it?

Summoning a sand fortress from punch wouldn't be the weirdest thing martial arts are pictured to do in chinese martial art fiction after all.

Another example would be something I saw in old fantasy martial art indonesian movie. Characters slicing tree trunk and throwing them to the air, then ride them surfer-style. And they do swordfight on top of them, using those tree trunks as rides.

Mind that this is specifically martial art, since there are actual magicians and such in the setting

while still identifiably being a martial character.

This part really depend on a lot of things I guess, including culture and individual preference.

[The Zoat]

Well yes. It might as well be magic. Jumping 100m to the air also might as well be magic. Punching a castle to dust might as well be magic. At the end, it's all in the description, isn't it?

Summoning a sand fortress from punch wouldn't be the weirdest thing martial arts are pictured to do in chinese martial art fiction after all.

Therein lies the issue. Any martial class that can do all the ridiculous things like make buildings from sand and punch a castle.to dust is very close to being a caster with really specific spells. Even then, some things a caster can do that a martial simply can't, like Wish, Polymorph or straight up Power Word: Kill. Once you reach stuff like that, pretending to be a martial is really a waste of time.

[Fri]

Therein lies the issue. Any martial class that can do all the ridiculous things like make buildings from sand and punch a castle.to dust is very close to being a caster with really specific spells. Even then, some things a caster can do that a martial simply can't, like Wish, Polymorph or straight up Power Word: Kill. Once you reach stuff like that, pretending to be a martial is really a waste of time.

True enough. But how could "godly martial character" stand beside "godly magician character" if he can't do awesome godly things then?

I mean, I like gritty realistic martial artist character as much as the next person, but that means he has to be in a proper setting for that.

This remind me on a discussion I overheard about Final Fantasy 14 (The MMO). In that setting, there are magicians who can summon fireballs and lightning, and elemental creatures. But there are also martial characters like Warriors and Paladins and Dragoon (lancers).

It's Final Fantasy game. It's expected besides Black Magician that can summon impressive giant fireballs, a Dragoon can jump hundreds of meters into the air and stab down an enemy with draconic visual aura. A paladin can summon spiritual shield to protect himself, and attack multiple enemies at range with a supernatural wave from his sword swing. But for some reason there are people who find it hard to accept that all those martial characters can do that. They're fine with magicians summoning fireball, but take objection to knights attacking enemies with supernatural sword wave.

The problem is, it's a final fantasy game. Those things are completely expected and in character. It's fine to dislike visual martial aura in say, game of thrones game (though I won't be surprised if someone can do that), but won't you be missing the point if you object on it in a final fantasy game?

[Cosi]

True enough. But how could "godly martial character" stand beside "godly magician character" if he can't do awesome godly things then?

Pretty much this. If "martial" or "mundane" or whatever is defined as "can't have real ultimate power", then characters who are martial will never have real ultimate power. You can't limit one group of characters to what is "realistic" and the other to "whatever you want" and expect that to result in balance.

[Cazero]

I'll leave those two things here and add the word "concentration" because direct damage might be too harsh. Martials can now wave their swords at magic to break it.

Now you only have to solve the issue of martial damage not scaling like it should for the number crunching to work. I suggest looking how 4e did it and work from here.

[Cluedrew]

It's easy. You just have to accept that they are not mundane.

You would think so but people still seem to have trouble with it anyways. See Fri's Final Fantasy example.

To Frozen_Feet: I agree, can call in reinforcements, has the proper gear and similar is a valid power-source. But I don't think it should be the only one.

As for the more general topic of what separates a martial and a caster... yeah I don't got a great answer for that. If I had to create a single solution I would simply create an array of character creation options that vary in how "magic" they are and then not actually declare where the line is. So you have someone who can jump 100m up, another that casts spells on swords, one who is a host for a supernatural spirit of war, one who attacks through pressure waves, one who can focus chi into strikes, one who knows exactly how to use some magic items and more. Which ones are casters and which ones are martials?

Random question: Where do DragonBall characters fall on the caster/martial line? Because to me it is... stupidly powerful but at the same time I would call them martials without a doubt.

[Vitruviansquid]

The whole premise of this question is so DnD. It's not hard to think up a martial character as strong as a magician, as soon as you abandon DnD prejudices.

In the Ramayana, a dude shoots a thousand arrows at Rama only for Rama to shoot back a thousand of his own and knock each arrow out of the way. To anyone not blinded by the glamour of DnD, those are two amazing feats of archery. To those who are, it's either somehow explained as technically magic or "we dismiss that Tome of Battle anime stuff."

[nedz]

But it wouldn't be realistic to have mundane characters who can do that.

The above is the paradyme you have to discard.

Once you do that however: do you still have mundane characters ?

There's no right answer: it depends entirely upon what you are trying to do.

[Concrete]

The way I see it, there would be at least two different ways to create a system where magic and martial can be equal.

1. To ensure that magic and martial effects have similar Costs.
While magic is, fluff-wise, won by extensive study, an extraordinary degree of faith, hard-won wisdom, great passion or other such means in DnD, mechanically, an effect for a mage often costs a round or an action, whereas a similar effect for a martial character costs gold and requires access to co-operative mages, while still, in the end leaving him less versatile and less powerful.


2. As long as one classifies magic as a means of manipulating the same forces as a martial character can, but just in different ways, it should be possible.

That way, one can make sure that two characters taking these divergent paths might reach equal heights, but in different ways.

If one accepts that a mage can reach absurd and magnificent levels of capability with his mind, can we not accept that a martial character can reach similar degrees of capability with his body?

The mage learns to conjure fireballs, the martial character reaches absurd speeds to avoid it, great enough strength to wear an armor so thick that the heat of the fire would dissipate before penetrating it, lungs strong enough to create a wind that would divert it, or skin resilient enough weather it outright.

The mage learns to create a wall of stone, the martial character leaps over it, or punches through it to counter it, or has the mobility and skill at arms to in some ways emulate it.

The mage develops the ability to become invisible, the martial character develops hearing enough to locate him anyways to counter it, or extreme abilities of speed or stealth to emulate it.

A way to differentiate martial and magical characters in this way would be their approach. A mages approach is general. If he wants to close off a location, he conjures a huge wall. A martial character must be more specific. Depending on what he closes the location off from, he must do some specific thing.

[Cluedrew]

To Vitruviansquid: You are correct that this issue does appear quite highly in D&D. You might even say that it is the worst offender. Except things like Ars Magica, but from what I know of the game that is the point. Still I see it in other placed is well, I've heard a few similar complaints about Shadowrun for instance. Ancient legends on the other hand seem to be shining examples of martial awesome.

To nedz: Well, I've been using the work martial as opposed to mundane on purpose, because I feel mundane does mean "as in real life" while martial means physical power and mastery. To me the two ideas are very separate.

To Concrete: I love your examples.

[The Zoat]

It's expected besides Black Magician that can summon impressive giant fireballs, a Dragoon can jump hundreds of meters into the air and stab down an enemy with draconic visual aura. A paladin can summon spiritual shield to protect himself, and attack multiple enemies at range with a supernatural wave from his sword swing. But for some reason there are people who find it hard to accept that all those martial characters can do that. They're fine with magicians summoning fireball, but take objection to knights attacking enemies with supernatural sword wave.

The problem is, it's a final fantasy game. Those things are completely expected and in character. It's fine to dislike visual martial aura in say, game of thrones game (though I won't be surprised if someone can do that), but won't you be missing the point if you object on it in a final fantasy game?

In final fantasy, everyone is a caster. All the classes have access to abilities that require mana to use that let them perform amazing feats, and the system they use is often the same.

[Cosi]

You would think so but people still seem to have trouble with it anyways. See Fri's Final Fantasy example.

I don't think you can satisfy those people. They want Fighter and Wizard to be equal, but they want some Wizard abilities to be off limits to Fighters. It's just not a workable paradigm.

To Frozen_Feet: I agree, can call in reinforcements, has the proper gear and similar is a valid power-source. But I don't think it should be the only one.

It's a valid power source in some settings. I don't have a problem with mundane characters showing up with radio comms, attack drones, and cyberware in a Shadowrun or Star Wars game, but that kind of thing is incredibly disruptive for a D&D game because it's totally out of genre.

Random question: Where do DragonBall characters fall on the caster/martial line? Because to me it is... stupidly powerful but at the same time I would call them martials without a doubt.

Martial, not mundane.

[Max_Killjoy]

Martial characters in D&D haven't been "mundane" in a long time -- the Feats list for martial characters is full of things that no real person could actually do.

[The Zoat]

Random question: Where do DragonBall characters fall on the caster/martial line? Because to me it is... stupidly powerful but at the same time I would call them martials without a doubt.

I think they count as both. On one hand, they use their internal energies to basically shoot fireballs made of ki, but hey they also punch things.

[Teapot Salty]

My idea is that martial character are better at doing ridiculous things. The fighter wants to stab the ground so that the edge of the cliff falls away? Sure! The barbarian wants to smash through a wall by running at it even though theirs a door right there? Why not? The ranger's knowledge and tracking prowess mean that he immediately knows that the troll gets burned easy? Hell yes!

[Jormengand]

Walk up to the mage and coup de grace the bastard, through his spells, from the other side of a wall of force, while nauseated. He deserved it.

[Fri]

In final fantasy, everyone is a caster. All the classes have access to abilities that require mana to use that let them perform amazing feats, and the system they use is often the same.

Nah, not in FF14. That's the point.

In FF14 there are 3 kinds of skills. Skills that uses mana, skills that use TP (stamina bar basically, it depletes when you sprint), and skills that uses cooldowns (you can only use it once ever minutes or so).

Warriors and dragoon specifically don't use mana bar at all. They only use stamina and cooldowns.

Though if you want to see it that way, technically you can say they all use Aether or what's it called, the energy that flows through everyone and everything in the setting.

Anyway, interestingly this is actually what I mentioned in my example about people seeing supernatural stuffs in other setting and seeing it in DnD Paradigm "it's actually magic, the're all actually magician."

[Quertus]

My idea is that martial character are better at doing ridiculous things. The fighter wants to stab the ground so that the edge of the cliff falls away? Sure! The barbarian wants to smash through a wall by running at it even though theirs a door right there? Why not? The ranger's knowledge and tracking prowess mean that he immediately knows that the troll gets burned easy? Hell yes!

The bard can make kingdoms rise and fall with his PR powers? Sense Motive lets you understand motives and predict behavior better than ESP + divination? The detective can tell species, plane of origin, and perhaps even identity just from a single footprint (with several, he could tell what they were looking at, what they were thinking, and what part they played in the crime that took place there)? Sounds fun!

Now, a word of warning: if a mundane character can, by whim, surpass the skill and training of a mage, it is only fair that the mage, by whim, be able to surpass the skill and training of the martial. If the expectation is that martial characters will be leaping over or punching through conjured walls, trivializing the power of the mage, it is only fair that the mage wave away swords and regenerate new bodies, trivializing the power of the martial. CoDzilla should be the expectation of the minimal martial response of the mage (kinda like an unoptimized bard is a minimal martial response in the current metagame).

Actually, I kinda like this role reversal - where the expectation is that the party mage will be a durable frontline combatant, chewing through your enemies, while the mundane will be your (backline) toolkit, predicting the future and breaking down magical barriers with the power of love.

[Frozen_Feet]

It's a valid power source in some settings. I don't have a problem with mundane characters showing up with radio comms, attack drones, and cyberware in a Shadowrun or Star Wars game, but that kind of thing is incredibly disruptive for a D&D game because it's totally out of genre.

That is somewhat the point.

Let's get to the root of this: originally "magic" meant knowledge. And knowledge is power. In medieval fantasy, non-magical characters lack power not because the non-magical world is less powerful than the magical world, but because non-magical characters are not allowed to know and exploit the non-magical world to the same extent as mages know and exploit the magical word.

Real god-tier non-magical martials cannot exist in medieval stasis. You have to open up to genres of science fiction and science fantasy to do that.

Now, magical martials are an alternative. This is actually written in core d20 rules. Become strong enough, and you can punch through steel and climb sheer surfaces. Become dextrous enough, and you can walk on water or balance on clouds. Become tough enough, and you can eat poisons for dessert and fall from orbit no problem, or survive in vacuum. Become smart enough, and you can tell everything ever written down of anything you see. Become wise enough, and you can read people's thoughts and hear what's being said on other side of the globe. Become charismatic enough, and you can in a minute make anyone into your zealous follower.

Become good enough with a sword and you can cleave force effects in two. Become good enough with a bow, and you can shoot down the sun.

These are all in the rules. The problem is that martials have to wait for epic levels for many of these, while mages get to cheat and do some of these from level 1.

If you were to extrapolate from epic martial abilities, epic martials should eventually become able to leap from planet to planet, tank meteors and strike out stars.

[Komatik]

Cleaving force effects sounds like it'd make a really kickass high level maneuver. Who doesn't like the idea of just cutting a hole in the forcecage?

[Cluedrew]

I don't think you can satisfy those people. They want Fighter and Wizard to be equal, but they want some Wizard abilities to be off limits to Fighters. It's just not a workable paradigm.

You can make it work:

1. Some of the fighter abilities (of similar power) are off limit to wizards.
2. Everything the fighter can do, the fighter can do much better than the wizard.

The problem is generally one of scale, there is often a bit of both of these in many games, but they don't go far enough to make up for the wizard only abilities

Walk up to the mage and coup de grace the bastard, through his spells, from the other side of a wall of force, while nauseated. He deserved it.

That sounds like fun.

You know another idea I like (in the area of countering magic) is that even if martials can't use magic that doesn't mean they can't interact with it. Simple example, batting aside an incoming fireball. Or for the explodes on contact type, but your shield in the way so it goes off in the wizard's face. There are lots of these interactions but rules sets generally don't accommodate them. Sometimes this makes sense (psych attacks and similar) but for things that exist in the physical world should have physical responses. Such as the force effects example.

[Linken]

Walk up to the mage and coup de grace the bastard, through his spells, from the other side of a wall of force, while nauseated. He deserved it.

If I may ask, how's this balanced? Looks kinda... er... powerful?

[Jormengand]

If I may ask, how's this balanced? Looks kinda... er... powerful?

Sure, you can ask, and the answer looks something like this:

Well, let's have a look at what a wizard can do by the time he's level 9:

- Create a noise equivalent to 20 shouting humans wherever he likes within 45 feet (Ghost sound, 0lvl)
- Create small objects, warm things up, change their taste, etc. (Prestidigitation, 0lvl)
- Make any humanoid his friend (Charm person, 1st)
- Knock out a roomful of low-level guards (Colour spray, 1st)
- Slow fall as the monk's 18th-level ability, only better (Feather Fall, 1st)
- Walk through a raging inferno unburned (Prot. Energy, 2nd)
- Become invisible (Invisibility, 2nd)
- Create four to seven illusory copies of himself and control all of them at once. (Mirror Image, 2nd)
- I prepared explosive runes this morning. (Explosive Runes, 3rd)
- Summon a frankly ridiculous horse. (Phantom Steed, 3rd)
- Definitely not scrying. (Clairvoyance/Clairaudience, 3rd)
- Brutally murder a roomful of low-level guards. (Fireball, 3rd)
- Fly (Fly, 3rd)
- Definitely scrying. (Scrying, 4th)
- Shoot off 760 feet as a standard action. (Dim. Door, 4th)
- Create a raging inferno. (Wall of Fire, 4th)
- "Wall is immune to damage." That's a nice summary. (Wall of force, 5th)
- Brutally murder a roomful of mid-level guards, and badly injure any high-level guards that might have snuck in there. (Cloudkill, 5th)
- Utterly control someone. (Dominate person, 5th)
- Murder a 1st-level character from anywhere on the same plane while they sleep (Nightmare, 5th)

You have to be able to stand up to that somehow. And "I hit it with my axe. I trip it. I grapple it." doesn't really stand up to that.

[Arbane]

Martial characters in D&D haven't been "mundane" in a long time -- the Feats list for martial characters is full of things that no real person could actually do.

Conversely, there's still some things 'normal people' can do that D&D characters can't (without buying the appropriate feat/item/mojo, of course) - like run at someone and hit them TWICE.