Summon MitD IX: Roll in Section 3a

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Grey Wolf is my master

Kneel before Zod!

GW

[Lombard]

Hi this came up in the other thread but I now want to make an 'official' guess that MiTD is a Couatl. My working theory is that it's a non-updated or houseruled form, and that what we've seen of MiTD thus far are either powers either directly explainable by that twist, or psionic powers and feats the MiTD has. For ex. it would be an enlarged psionic Stomp, not an earthquake. Psionics themselves are a bit non-standard in this setting anyways. Welp, I would prefer not to argue over it I would just like my guess noted please.

[elemek]

Wha? That--I don't--how would that fit with any of the strips the creature has appeared in before this--

(If some nut decides Grey Wolf is my master, and refers to him as "your master" while talking to me, and I say he isn't and the nut chastises me for not showing proper respect for my master, then I insist that no he isn't, am I implying that I have a master and it's someone else?)

I defer to your incredulity. It was a big stretch, and not supported in any previous strips.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Hi this came up in the other thread but I now want to make an 'official' guess that MiTD is a Couatl. My working theory is that it's a non-updated or houseruled form, and that what we've seen of MiTD thus far are either powers either directly explainable by that twist, or psionic powers and feats the MiTD has.

Every creature could be MitD if it was "houseruled" to be MitD... except then it would be impossible to figure it out. Furthermore, "nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is", and yet strip #1 tells us that updates cannot be prevented. Furthermore, both the 2nd ed and 3rd ed version of cuatl are simply too weak to be MitD, failing to explain the tower both in the attack and the defence, as far as I can tell.

Grey Wolf

[Lombard]

Every creature could be MitD if it was "houseruled" to be MitD... except then it would be impossible to figure it out. Furthermore, "nothing from before strip #100 actually contradicts the truth of what it is", and yet strip #1 tells us that updates cannot be prevented. Furthermore, both the 2nd ed and 3rd ed version of cuatl are simply too weak to be MitD, failing to explain the tower both in the attack and the defence, as far as I can tell.

Grey Wolf

That's your interpretation of strip 1... as an example, Laurin was able to liberally make use of an old psionic ability that's not in 3.5. Because why? Because author's discretion. As for the tower, perhaps empowered psychofeedback and inertial barrier. Or maybe stick with the "outdated" theme and guess it's an Expert Rules version of polymorph self. Haven't seen this spell used a lot in the strip.

[Quartz]

For me, the Athasian Nightmare Beast pretty much hits all the marks except for the earthquake stomp, but I do have one issue: when the ANB uses its powers, that counts as defiler magic. Shouldn't that have visible effects?

And I've spotted two typos and a grammar error in post #2 concerning Swallow Whole:

In SoD, Xykon orders a mind controlled MitD to devour whole RC is RC double crosses Xykon

That should be '... to devour RC whole if RC double-crosses Xykon' - 'if' not 'is' and 'double-crosses' is hyphenated.

[Keltest]

That's your interpretation of strip 1... as an example, Laurin was able to liberally make use of an old psionic ability that's not in 3.5. Because why? Because author's discretion. As for the tower, perhaps empowered psychofeedback and inertial barrier. Or maybe stick with the "outdated" theme and guess it's an Expert Rules version of polymorph self. Haven't seen this spell used a lot in the strip.

Z was also able to make use of a 3.0 fly spell that was houseruled in because apparently the 3.5 version is significantly less effective.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

That's your interpretation of strip 1... as an example, Laurin was able to liberally make use of an old psionic ability that's not in 3.5. Because why? Because author's discretion.

Rich did not say that we could figure out what Laurin is. Therefore, he has a lot more slack on what he can have her do outside the rules. That is not the case for MitD. As I already said, the moment you allow "author discretion" then any monster is possible - why, it could be a psionic centaur with 20 levels of sorcery. MitD is a special case and, like the "surprising it can speak" speech, when it breaks the rules, the author would need to lampshade it, because otherwise his expectation that it can be figured out is a fantasy.

As for the tower, perhaps empowered psychofeedback and inertial barrier.

Neither of those sounds like they would be needed in a "hitting lightly" game, unless you are suggested he dumped his strength as much as possible with psychofeedback, and yet still managed to lose. Nor would he need to set up extra defences.

Or maybe stick with the "outdated" theme and guess it's an Expert Rules version of polymorph self. Haven't seen this spell used a lot in the strip.

Again, a monster that has polymorphed itself cannot be figured out. Your entire line of inquiry is completely barren. We could substitute any monster, any whatsoever, at the base of a creature that is allowed to use polymorph and spells from any edition. It is a pointless, useless approach.

Grey Wolf

[Lombard]

Neither of those sounds like they would be needed in a "hitting lightly" game, unless you are suggested he dumped his strength as much as possible with psychofeedback, and yet still managed to lose. Nor would he need to set up extra defences.

Look, you don't seem to know what you don't know in terms of the limitations of your interpretation of your observations. For example, you don't even consider the possibility that the MiTD may have not been truthful about wanting to play a 'hitting lightly' game, even though the very notion of such a game seems ridiculous even for someone with the mind of a child. You're convinced that all prior version monsters must have been upgraded because of strip #1 ... which really, I mean I get why you would consider it to be a reasonable possibility, but to be so absolutely binarily convinced of that based on that one strip is boggling. Then, you're convinced that every 2.0 monster is sitting in that dungeon, your source for which is who? Nale! But you never even consider the fact that Nale could be wrong or lying or misunderstanding something, you just take it totally at face value. I mean ... lol... you're critical of my line of thinking but you do very little weighing of the value of the evidence you call evidence, because apparently it would be inconvenient for you to do so? Well, fine, but let's call it what it is.

So, moving past that, and as should have been clear from my guess and my note about the tower scene, I'm also proposing that the MiTD may not be the babe in the woods that is supposed.

[Kish]

Well, the demon roaches may not have been summoned by the creature in the darkness, but they're not above speaking directly to those readers in this thread.

[Dr. Gamera]

Quick, kids: figure out which monsters have "trenchant political analysis" as a Special Attack!

(because I'm pretty sure that a Demon Roach in Panel 6 is directing that quote at this thread)

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Look, you don't seem to know what you don't know in terms of he limitations of your interpretation of your observations. For example, you don't even consider the possibility that the MiTD may have not been truthful about wanting to play a 'hitting lightly' game, even though the very notion of such a game seems ridiculous even for someone with the mind of a child. You're convinced that all prior version monsters must have been upgraded because of strip #1 ... which really, I mean I get why you would consider it to be a reasonable possibility, but to be so absolutely binarily convinced of that based on that one strip is boggling. Then, you're convinced that every 2.0 monster is sitting in that dungeon, your source for which is who? Nale! But you never even consider the fact that Nale could be wrong or lying or misunderstanding something, you just take it totally at face value. I mean ... lol... you're critical of my line of thinking but you do very little weighing of the value of the evidence you call evidence, because apparently it would be inconvenient for you to do so? Well, fine, but let's call it what it is.

So, moving past that, and as should have been clear from my guess and my note about the tower scene, I'm also proposing that the MiTD may not be the babe in the woods that is supposed.

So, in essence, everything that fits your idea is a valid clue, to be taken at face value, and everything that doesn't fit is a lie, and can be discarded. Got it.

GW

[Kish]

Uh...yeah. I feel confident in throwing out "the creature lied for some reason and deliberately smashed Miko and her horse through the wall." If it turns out that that crucially misleads me on what the creature is, Lombard gets to tell me "I told you so."

[Lombard]

So, in essence, everything that fits your idea is a valid clue, to be taken at face value, and everything that doesn't fit is a lie, and can be discarded. Got it.

GW

Not sure what that poor straw man ever did to you, but I think he's had enough.

What I said was that the possibility that things are not as they appear at face value should be considered. Which, to be quite fair, you haven't done.

[Lombard]

Uh...yeah. I feel confident in throwing out "the creature lied for some reason and deliberately smashed Miko and her horse through the wall." If it turns out that that crucially misleads me on what the creature is, Lombard gets to tell me "I told you so."

Come on strong and appear invincible so that the idiot zealot gives up and leaves you alone. Perfectly valid strategy.

[Peelee]

Not sure what that poor straw man ever did to you, but I think he's had enough.

What I said was that the possibility that things are not as they appear at face value should be considered. Which, to be quite fair, you haven't done.

I have a question. Wouldn't it be accurate to say that if some things are not as they appear at face value, that could apply to any and potentially all things, making any sort of educated guess an exercise in futility?

[hamishspence]

Come on strong and appear invincible so that the idiot zealot gives up and leaves you alone. Perfectly valid strategy.

Seemed to me like the Monster was upset at having "failed" to hit lightly:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html

"Aw man! I lost twice! I suck!"

[Kish]

Seemed to me like the Monster was upset at having "failed" to hit lightly:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html

"Aw man! I lost twice! I suck!"

There's also the little detail that the confrontation between Miko and the creature in the darkness began and ended with Miko attempting to leave as quickly as possible; if that was the outcome a scheming manipulator who mysteriously looked like the creature in the darkness desired, then the logical action to take to arrange it would have been "nothing; don't block her way in the first place." But fundamentally, even getting that far hinges on throwing out every bit of characterization the creature has ever had. As I said, if it turns out Lombard is right, I'll freely admit to having been wrong.

[littlebum2002]

Did the MitD get hit on the head or something? How has he become so intelligent all of a sudden?

Seemed to me like the Monster was upset at having "failed" to hit lightly:

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0374.html

"Aw man! I lost twice! I suck!"

He was obviously saying this as a ruse, so in case anyone was listening in on him his cover wouldn't be blown

[Grey_Wolf_c]

Not sure what that poor straw man ever did to you, but I think he's had enough.

What I said was that the possibility that things are not as they appear at face value should be considered. Which, to be quite fair, you haven't done.

Yes, because you have been in my brain to know for sure what I have and have not done. Got it.

Everything I said here is still valid - calling me names and accusing me of this or that will not change that your approach is useless, because it will inevitably devolve into a shouting match of which clues are lies and which ones are true, as everyone picks and chooses the ones that best fit their own preferences. Which has in fact happened more than a few times in this thread - this conceit of yours that you are the first to accuse me of taking all the clues at face value (and suggesting this is a bad thing) is not even remotely close to accurate.

Indeed, to prove a point, lets assume I did as you think we should all do: let's look at the Cuatl by your "rules". Oh, sorry, it completely fails to meet the clues I consider valid (as of two minutes ago): it flies, so it can't leave tracks, therefore Belkar couldn't find tracks to be confused about. It also can't be surprising it speaks, because it speaks common. Every other clue is, in fact, just misdirection, and I don't take it into consideration.

Grey Wolf

[Lombard]

I have a question. Wouldn't it be accurate to say that if some things are not as they appear at face value, that could apply to any and potentially all things, making any sort of educated guess an exercise in futility?

I don't believe so because while it does create more potential scenarios, the number of scenarios would still be limited. If you don't consider all possibilities, you're potentially engaging in an exercise in futility because you could have taken a wrong turn with an invalid assumption and been lost from that point on.

[Lombard]

He was obviously saying this as a ruse, so in case anyone was listening in on him his cover wouldn't be blown

Color noted but it's not as if we haven't had multiple instances of "tuning in" in the comic. Moreover, how about the possibility that Miko would tell someone that the MiTD let her go?

[Grey_Wolf_c]

I don't believe so because while it does create more potential scenarios, the number of scenarios would still be limited.

"Limited"? Every single clue in your "method" now has two values: true, or misdirection. Therefore, there is a combination in which every single clue is, in fact, misdirection. Therefore, there is no way to analyse any suggestion: all monsters, ever, will fit "the clues" if they are all misdirection (like, for example, through your ludicrous combination of handwave and polymorph - every creature can be turned into every other creature, aka the Pun-Pun). For example, this includes monsters that have yet to be designed: Rich was just misdirecting us to use when he said he decided around #100 - he just decided to wait to decide until closer to the reveal. And so on. There is infinite ways to handwave the clues that get in your way. This idea that it will help is absurd. The thread will simply be a list of guesses, and rationalisations of how to best ignore the clues that don't fit.

Grey Wolf

[Lombard]

calling me names

And what, good sir, shall we infer from the fact that you've baselessly thrown that bit in.

[Lombard]

Every single clue in your "method" now has two values: true, or misdirection. Therefore, there is a combination in which every single clue is, in fact, misdirection.

I'm with you to that point but then we diverge. Let's be clear though I don't recall we were ever promised some sort of logic problem where all the information will lead us to one correct result.

But what if, for example, the MiTD is engaging in willful misdirection. 'If' that were true then we would be able to draw some inferences- i.e. ability and motivation. For me that narrows things down quite a bit, certainly nothing definitive, but for example if you look at the Couatl lore in Monster Manual 2 I think you'll see that - in the MiTD is faking scenario- I'm not just running willy-nilly on the guessing front.

[Grey_Wolf_c]

And what, good sir, shall we infer from the fact that you've baselessly thrown that bit in.

That you are suggesting two things about me:

apparently it would be inconvenient for you to do so?

Which, to be quite fair, you haven't done.

I.e. you are not attacking my logic, but attacking me, and what I have and have not done for this thread. It is, in a word, offensive to suggest that I do not take my duties seriously or thoroughly.

And since you have now failed to address any of my concerns with your approach, I shall Ignore you from now on.

Let's be clear though I don't recall we were ever promised some sort of logic problem where all the information will lead us to one correct result.

I will say this much: It is possible to guess.
That is, it isn't something I just made up for the story. It wouldn't be any fun for the answer to a mystery to be something I invented just for one purpose, would it? I won't finally throw back the darkness and have someone say, "Look! It was a therblewurkersaurus the entire time!" or some other made-up monster.
I realize that the line between something I made up and something someone else made up is a pretty fine one, but I trust that someone will figure it out eventually.

(emphasis mine)

Grey Wolf

[Kish]

In light of having noticed in the strip #1038 discussion thread that there is some disagreement on this:

I wish to register my belief that the trenchant political analysis ability is an actual clue (and was lampshaded as such by the demon roach). He didn't really overhear it from Ridziak or anyone else. He didn't happen to improve his mental ability scores from pathetic to slightly less pathetic because of O-Chul. His mental ability scores are actually much higher than his normal behavior would suggest.

[Peelee]

In light of having noticed in the strip #1038 discussion thread that there is some disagreement on this:

I wish to register my belief that the trenchant political analysis ability is an actual clue (and was lampshaded as such by the demon roach). He didn't really overhear it from Ridziak or anyone else. He didn't happen to improve his mental ability scores from pathetic to slightly less pathetic because of O-Chul. His mental ability scores are actually much higher than his normal behavior would suggest.

Seconded.

Wheeeeee!

[Grey_Wolf_c]

In light of having noticed in the strip #1038 discussion thread that there is some disagreement on this:

I wish to register my belief that the trenchant political analysis ability is an actual clue (and was lampshaded as such by the demon roach). He didn't really overhear it from Ridziak or anyone else. He didn't happen to improve his mental ability scores from pathetic to slightly less pathetic because of O-Chul. His mental ability scores are actually much higher than his normal behavior would suggest.

I would agree that this is a reinforcement of the Go! scene, yes, although for my mental health I hope no-one reads so much into this that we need to start looking for "trenchant political analysis" as a special attack (although if such thing does exists, not being an SLA, the protean could have used it).

We have long suspected that MitD is high in INT, low(-ish) in WIS. This continues along the same vein - an intellectual analysis of the goblin relationship, rather than a moral analysis thereof.

Edit: it does feel like we are moving into some kind of end-game, since a lot of this clues we have had before, but now are being a lot more straightforward. We suspected he was young, now we have a lot more clear confirmation. We suspected he was more intelligent than he let on, now it is a lot clearer.

GW

[Christopher K.]

I know this isn't quite an actionable comment, but with today's comic, could it be that the GBiS is actually becoming more insightful (and charismatic with his bluff in the desert) rather than only caring more about what's going on around him after his time with O-Chul?

Edit: ninja'd with arguments to the contrary. :P