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    BlackDragon

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    Default 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    I created this class with another DM, and part of the reason we made it was our shared loved of Ryoma in Fire Emblem Fates, and the Fire Emblem Swordmasters in general. This is also partially intended as a Fighter replacement for our games. Basically, we find the fighter very mechanically boring, and no one in our group (other than me) has ever played one. So, to fill the void left by the lack of non-gish martial in our games, we tried to make this a purely martial class (no magical subclasses) that was just as kick-ass and awesome as spellcasters. So without further ado, for your consideration: the 5e Swordmaster!
    Last edited by DracoKnight; 2016-06-16 at 10:27 AM.

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Precision strike refers to swordmaster weapons. But this in't detailed (I assume it just refers to the weapons swordmaster is naturally proficient with).

    The class isn't great at first level, maybe move fighting style to first?

    Flawless technique gives +6 attack and damage across a class that at this point has 4 attacks. Holy power spike Batman!
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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Hyena View Post
    Precision strike refers to swordmaster weapons. But this in't detailed (I assume it just refers to the weapons swordmaster is naturally proficient with).
    Yes, that is the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Hyena View Post
    The class isn't great at first level, maybe move fighting style to first?
    Mechanically they get about the same things as the Monk at 1st level, so I'm fine with leaving their 1st level as is. They get enough good abilities later on that I don't mind it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Hyena View Post
    Flawless technique gives +6 attack and damage across a class that at this point has 4 attacks. Holy power spike Batman!
    This is one of those goodies I was talking about - and you don't get it until 18th level. If it's actually a problem we can nerf it somehow, but we were basically trying to represent how the swordmaster in FE almost never misses.

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    Mechanically they get about the same things as the Monk at 1st level, so I'm fine with leaving their 1st level as is. They get enough good abilities later on that I don't mind it.
    They both get dex + wis ac
    A monk gets two attacks
    D6+3 (6.5)
    D4+3 (5.5)
    For a total of 12

    A swordmaster gets
    d10+3 (8.5)

    Moving the fighting style up doesn't even it out, but it helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    This is one of those goodies I was talking about - and you don't get it until 18th level. If it's actually a problem we can nerf it somehow, but we were basically trying to represent how the swordmaster in FE almost never misses.
    The goal was to represent never missing, so why is there also a damage boost? It's an exceptionally strong power increase.

    I haven't done any actual maths, but my general instinct is that the class is probably on the strong side.
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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Hyena View Post
    They both get dex + wis ac
    A monk gets two attacks
    D6+3 (6.5)
    D4+3 (5.5)
    For a total of 12

    A swordmaster gets
    d10+3 (8.5)

    Moving the fighting style up doesn't even it out, but it helps.
    Hmmmmmm... I'll consider this. But I don't like giving them three features at level 1, and the two features I gave them are more instrumental in making the class playable at level 1, I feel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Hyena View Post
    The goal was to represent never missing, so why is there also a damage boost? It's an exceptionally strong power increase.

    I haven't done any actual maths, but my general instinct is that the class is probably on the strong side.
    Okay, we'll drop the prof. bonus to damage.

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    I expected there to be a lot more insulting involved...
    . . .

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Master of Aeons View Post
    I expected there to be a lot more insulting involved...
    Bardic Magic Initiate...?

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Alright, I've got Spooky Scary Skeletons playing in the background. Let's eviscerate judge a class!

    Fluff is nice.

    Bit light on HP and armor for a melee class, but that does leave room for being a bit more powerful.

    What is a Swordmaster weapon? Specify that.

    And ah, unarmored defense. So it's got good AC.

    Duelist's Blow is pretty potent early on, but it'll fall off as creatures get more attacks. (Or just encourage them to hit other people. Good to pair with a Raging Barbarian.) Seems fine.

    WHOA HOLY CRAP! EVASIVE IS WAY TOO STRONG! As a bonus action, make EVERYONE have disadvantage on attacks against you. Unlimitedly. NO! For a GWF Swordmaster, this doesn't even have a cost! (Also, why no Duelist? Also also, you don't have shield proficiency. Can't use Protection.)

    Bad! Bad Dracoknight! You get better features than the Fighter and Extra Attack earlier? No. Make it one extra at five and maybe-MAYBE-a second extra at 13 or so.

    Improved Crit and Evasion are fine.

    Swordfaire is fine.

    Vantage is too strong. Make it one attack, not multiple, and cannot be replaced with a grapple or anything.

    Pressure Point should be once per rest. (But I'd also make it automatic, in that case. No check required.)

    Astra is fine-allows for a great nova when combined with Pressure Point.

    NO! Flawless Technique is way too much. At +17 to hit, you will pretty much never miss except on a 1. Throw it out, add something new entirely.

    Lethality should be once per rest, especially with your 18-20 crit range.

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    Superiority actions need, well... Actions. Specify if they are part of an attack, a bonus action, or an action.

    Steadfast seems fine.

    Retaliation seems fine.

    Uncanny Wit is fine.

    Overall, just need to add actions, and this subclass is a-okay.


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    Unfettered Blade seems fine.

    Determined Strike should be once per rest, not long rest. It's not that strong. (But would be fun on a Halfling. 1-Reroll! 1-Reroll! 1-OH COME ON!)

    Fancy Footwork seems fine.

    Resolute Warrior is fine.

    Overall, needs a slight buff.
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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    I was about to respond to this, when I saw that JNA had replied, so I'm going to give my feedback in response to JNA's, to kind of play devil's advocate.

    My initial reaction was: "This is really powerful," but then I started looking at what levels you get things. You can't really dip to get anything out of this class. This isn't really a class that you get much out of dipping into. Other than the Evasive fighting style, but we'll get to that later.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Alright, I've got Spooky Scary Skeletons playing in the background. Let's eviscerate judge a class!

    Fluff is nice.

    Bit light on HP and armor for a melee class, but that does leave room for being a bit more powerful.

    What is a Swordmaster weapon? Specify that.
    I think that it's supposed to be the things they're proficient with from the class - but yeah, Draco, specify.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    And ah, unarmored defense. So it's got good AC.

    Duelist's Blow is pretty potent early on, but it'll fall off as creatures get more attacks. (Or just encourage them to hit other people. Good to pair with a Raging Barbarian.) Seems fine.
    My estimation as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    WHOA HOLY CRAP! EVASIVE IS WAY TOO STRONG! As a bonus action, make EVERYONE have disadvantage on attacks against you. Unlimitedly. NO! For a GWF Swordmaster, this doesn't even have a cost! (Also, why no Duelist? Also also, you don't have shield proficiency. Can't use Protection.)
    The Monk can do this too Admittedly for a resource cost...but as often as you should be taking long rests, you shouldn't ever NOT be able to use it And I think there's no duelist because the Swordmasters of Fire Emblem either two-hand their weapon, or they dual-wield. And they don't use shields, but DracoKnight specified that the Swordmaster's Protection Style can be used with a sword. It says it in the style.

    Evasive might need to be toned down, but I would playtest it. And to DracoKnight's credit, this isn't Draco powergaming - this is actually thematic for the class

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Bad! Bad Dracoknight! You get better features than the Fighter and Extra Attack earlier? No. Make it one extra at five and maybe-MAYBE-a second extra at 13 or so.
    As to their extra attack earlier, I'd say it's fine. It scales with cantrips this way! Which is how the Fighter SHOULD have worked! Because Extra Attack (3) is a weak-ass capstone. And honestly, it's how I apply the Fighter's Extra Attack in my games, their capstone in my game is the ability to spend both Action Surges on the same round.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Improved Crit and Evasion are fine.

    Swordfaire is fine.
    No disagreements from me here.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Vantage is too strong. Make it one attack, not multiple, and cannot be replaced with a grapple or anything.
    Yeah...Draco, you done screwed up. As written, as a reaction they can get off 2 attacks before the opponent makes 1. Now, this is a reaction attack...and it's 10th level, so it's not a dip...In context of that, it might be fine. I will think on this......

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Pressure Point should be once per rest. (But I'd also make it automatic, in that case. No check required.)
    I would say it's fine, especially because it doesn't come online until 14th level.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Astra is fine-allows for a great nova when combined with Pressure Point.
    Honestly, I think this is what makes Pressure Point so great, and THIS is limited to 1/rest, so it should be fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    NO! Flawless Technique is way too much. At +17 to hit, you will pretty much never miss except on a 1. Throw it out, add something new entirely.
    I would agree. Hmmmm... Maybe 1/2 proficiency bonus. But full on expertised weapon attacks is too strong.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Lethality should be once per rest, especially with your 18-20 crit range.
    I would say that it's fine, because for 3 ki an Open Hand Monk can end someone or deal the same amount of damage - this is a hell of a lot more random. AND it's not until 17th level, so I'd say it's fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
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    Superiority actions need, well... Actions. Specify if they are part of an attack, a bonus action, or an action.

    Steadfast seems fine.

    Retaliation seems fine.

    Uncanny Wit is fine.

    Overall, just need to add actions, and this subclass is a-okay.
    No disagreements here.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
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    Unfettered Blade seems fine.

    Determined Strike should be once per rest, not long rest. It's not that strong. (But would be fun on a Halfling. 1-Reroll! 1-Reroll! 1-OH COME ON!)

    Fancy Footwork seems fine.

    Resolute Warrior is fine.

    Overall, needs a slight buff.
    Yeah, again no disagreements here.

    I agree with JNA on the Subclasses: pretty solid, but need some clarifications/buffing
    Last edited by GandalfTheWhite; 2016-05-22 at 04:09 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Wasn't it 6 ki?

    And the issue with Evasive is that you don't have a good use for your bonus action, usually. (Not until really late game.) Monks do. (And yes, TWF guys have a use for it. This just makes TWF even worse in comparison.)
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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    Wasn't it 6 ki?
    1 Ki

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    And the issue with Evasive is that you don't have a good use for your bonus action, usually. (Not until really late game.) Monks do. (And yes, TWF guys have a use for it. This just makes TWF even worse in comparison.)
    Maybe a way to fix it would be this:

    Evasive Fighting Style:
    When you use your action to take the Dodge action, you can make two attacks as a bonus action.

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    For Quivering Palm? No way is it 1 ki.

    Oh, you meant dodge? I meant QP.

    And that makes evasive EVEN WORSE. Now, not only do you get to dodge every round, you get double DPR till level 5. (It does fall off when you get a third attack, but still, most campaigns will never see that.)
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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    For Quivering Palm? No way is it 1 ki.

    Oh, you meant dodge? I meant QP.
    QP is 3 Ki.

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    And that makes evasive EVEN WORSE. Now, not only do you get to dodge every round, you get double DPR till level 5. (It does fall off when you get a third attack, but still, most campaigns will never see that.)
    Really? Every 5e game I've played in has seen level 20...and they're all long-standing games.

    Okay, I don't know how to fix evasive, but a huge part of the class's shtick in Fire Emblem is that they DON'T get hit

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    I don't think there's a good way to implement that. Maybe add evasive as a class feature, but drop them to a d4 hit die? That might even out.
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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    I don't think there's a good way to implement that. Maybe add evasive as a class feature, but drop them to a d4 hit die? That might even out.
    I wouldn't say d4...maybe d6.

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Proposed change for the Evasive Fighting Style: instead of flat out disadvantage, bonus action to reduce attack rolls against you by 1d4? You roll roll the d4 on your turn, and that's your roll for the round. You don't roll individually for every attack.
    Last edited by DracoKnight; 2016-05-22 at 04:28 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    That'd be good. I think that'd be balanced, as it's an average AC increase of 2.5, but costs a bonus action.

    Hm... But then again, you don't use your bonus action for a ton (barring TWF, who will take the TWF style.) Maybe 1d3, for average of 2?
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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by JNAProductions View Post
    That'd be good. I think that'd be balanced, as it's an average AC increase of 2.5, but costs a bonus action.

    Hm... But then again, you don't use your bonus action for a ton (barring TWF, who will take the TWF style.) Maybe 1d3, for average of 2?
    I think 1d4 would be fine, personally, especially because it's not nearly as powerful as GWF at that point.

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Um... It's a lot more useful than GWF. GWF is an average increase of less than 1 on a d6. This is a 2.5 bonus to AC in a bounded accuracy system.
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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Updated the link in the OP.

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Are there any more comments or concerns?

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    I'd say it looks fine now

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Going forward on the evasive fighting style - it is more balanced now. It still seems a bit strong for a fs, but its ok i guess. I do think it would look a lot neater if you would describe it as adding it to your AC instead of decreasing it from attacks against you. Dont really know how to describe it and dont really have any examples in the top of my head, but i think that is how it is usually done in the published wizard materials... just my two cents ;)

    Edit: perhaps to make it a bit less strong is to limit it to when you are not wielding a 2H weapon. Fluff wise this seems better to me too, as a 2H weapon is too heavy and 'in the way' for being evasive...
    Last edited by RakiReborn; 2016-05-23 at 04:57 PM.

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by RakiReborn View Post
    Edit: perhaps to make it a bit less strong is to limit it to when you are not wielding a 2H weapon. Fluff wise this seems better to me too, as a 2H weapon is too heavy and 'in the way' for being evasive...
    I can definitely restrict its use to wielding swordmaster weapons, but I do want you to be able to use it with a longs word for flavor reasons.

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    I shouldnt respond when half asleep... i ment restrict it to non-heavy weapons. This way it isnt class dependent, but usable with all the swordmaster proficiencies.
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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by RakiReborn View Post
    I shouldnt respond when half asleep... i ment restrict it to non-heavy weapons. This way it isnt class dependent, but usable with all the swordmaster proficiencies.
    Okay. Thanks for clarifying this I can do, since it doesn't exclude two-handed longsword use

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Any final tweaks before I release this to players?

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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    I looked over the whole class this time, and it looks well made. There are a few things i think might need tweaking.

    Vantage gives no range. If it is supposed to work with ranged weapons, you might want to add 'within your weapon's range'. If you want it to be melee only, you might want to add 'within melee range', although im not sure what it does with reach. The way it is now, if you play an elf with this class, you can use a full attack action with up to 4 attacks with a longbow against a creature that attacks you from where ever. This brings me to the second part - i think a full action is a bit much. It is usually done that you may make one weapon attack as a reaction. Up to 4 is a LOT, especially since you also gain the bonus that you hit them all before even gaining the damage from the triggering attack. You might also want to specify what happenes to the triggering attack if you reduce the creature making it to 0hp with your attack.

    Pressure point is a neat idea, but it also looks too powerful to me. Adv on all attacks until the end of your next turn is a lot. How it could be used is using the BA insight, full attack action, maybe full attack action as reaction, full attack action on the next turn. I would simply make it a BA version of True Strike, giving adv on the first attack before the end of your next turn. Since it is also a skill check, you can get expertise in it with a rogue or bard MC, gaining up to a +17 at late levels, against an AC that tops out around 22 i think? Just some things i noticed that need to be considered.

    Flawless technique looks nice, but remember bounded accuracy. Another +6 to attack rolls is HUGE. This can give you a +17 to hit. Combine it with pressure point, and you will pretty much never miss. With the increadible DPS you have, this is absurd (not trying to be mean, just baffled...)

    The Lethality capstone is just outright beautiful. It does hit more than hurl though hell (same damage) can be used, but thats ok for a capstone. But only if you tone the rest down a bit imho...

    Tldr; looks very good, just needs some relooking/-thinking about vantage, pressure point and flawless technique.
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    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by RakiReborn View Post
    -snip-
    Will take all of this under advisement

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    Aug 2008

    Default Re: 5e Swordmaster Class Levels 1-20; Fire Emblem Inspired [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    This is one of those goodies I was talking about - and you don't get it until 18th level. If it's actually a problem we can nerf it somehow, but we were basically trying to represent how the swordmaster in FE almost never misses.
    Quote Originally Posted by GandalfTheWhite View Post
    Okay, I don't know how to fix evasive, but a huge part of the class's shtick in Fire Emblem is that they DON'T get hit
    The high end party swordmasters dodge pretty reliably, but enemy sword masters get hit all the time, and even the party ones do if you put them against the wrong enemies. Soldiers stab them, mages get the occasional hit, archers get the occasional hit, cat and raven laguz hit repeatedly, etc. Similarly, while the swordmasters do generally hit their opponents, there are exceptions there (cat and raven laguz again). On top of that, in D&D hitting and dealing no damage is represented as a miss, and that happens all the time. Swordmasters also tend to get beat down quickly when they do get hit, as easily the most fragile melee class. The damage is also pretty bad against anyone with a solid defense score.

    As such, emulation doesn't really excuse the strength we're seeing here. Any number of abilities could be toned down while staying faithful to the source. So, going ability by ability:

    Proficiencies - Drop medium armor, and maybe drop non sword weapons entirely. The ineptitude at range helps a bit with balance, and axe and spear use just doesn't fit.
    Precision Strike - This seems pretty reasonable, particularly given existing finesse weapons.
    Unarmored Defense - While this does work, wisdom isn't really a swordmaster trait in FE, and there are a lot of rash but capable duelist archetypes out there. Something like 12+Dex might work better.
    Duelist's Blow - This seems reasonable.
    Fighting Style - Evasive is a bit much. Having that work against only one attack could help here.
    Extra Attack - They don't need to hit 4 attacks. Yes, they're unusually fast, but in the source material it's not that much above other classes, and things like Astra can cover that on their own anyways. Dropping this to two attacks helps a lot with the balance.
    Improved Critical - With only 2 attacks maximum, this drops back down to reasonable. Combined with 4, it's a bit much. A compromise at 3 could also work.
    Swordfaire - That the swordmaster deals crap damage (outside of crits) is part of the source material. I'd restrict this to critical hits, so that it isn't quite so useful.
    Vantage - It's worth observing that you pulled this from a source where retaliatory attacks are standard, and this just makes you get them first. As retaliatory attacks aren't standard, a change to something like you giving up an attack for a retaliatory action instead (maybe with a bonus there, as you actually had to pay for it) makes sense.
    Pressure Point - This is a bit much, particularly once everything else starts showing up.
    Astra - This actually isn't too bad (particularly with a 2 attack max). If Pressure Point is altered though, Astra might actually need a slight buff, in the form of dropping the advantage requirement. A multiclass with Fighter 2 could cause issues though, as combining Action Surge with Astra gets out of hand.
    Flawless Technique - Even without easy advantage, this is pretty excessive. That's a +17 at high levels, and when bounded accuracy is such a core design ideal, that's really excessive. Drop this entirely.
    Lethality - This is completely ridiculous. Comparisons have been made to monk, but this is a free SoD that has a 15% chance of triggering per attack, with 10d10 damage on a miss. With advantage (which is really easy to get with this class), that bumps up to 27.75%. This is a 47.80% or 72.75% chance of happening at least one per turn, and Astra jacks that up yet higher. On top of that, Lethality isn't even a swordmaster technique in the source material.

    The subclasses are better, and have been covered already
    I would really like to see a game made by Obryn, Kurald Galain, and Knaight from these forums.

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    Current Design Project: Legacy, a game of masters and apprentices for two players and a GM.

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