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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    So, I've been thinking of a spell which I think is evocative and Iconic, but not well implemented in Pathfinder and D&D 3.5, which is that of Holy warriors throwing lightning, so I've put this together.

    Glorious Thunder
    School conjuration [Good, electricity]; Level paladin 2, cleric 4 Domain Good 3, Glory 2
    Casting time 1 full round
    Components V, S, DF (A Fulgerite worth at least 25gp per caster level)
    Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
    Target one creature within range
    Effect Divine thunderbolts
    Duration 1 round/level; SR no

    You call to hand bolts of the Gods' own thunder. While this spell is active, the target may make attacks with these bolts as if making thrown weapon attacks, however, these attacks are touch attacks and use the casters casting ability score in place of their dexterity add strength for these attacks. Each bolt functions as a thrown weapon, and deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8) plus your charisma bonus, and has a range increment of 60 ft. Half of the damage dealt by these bolts is electricity, and half is divine energy as per flamestrike. A new bolt may be called to hand as a free action within the duration of the spell, so long as a bolt is not currently in hand.
    So, main questions: Do you think this spell works properly (IE, are there any glitches)? Is this spell appropriately leveled? Is this spell objectionable in some way (Balance-wise)? Would you use this spell if given the opportunity? Do you otherwise have any comments?

    Changelog:
    25/5/16: Twiddled formatting, made SR no, shifted spell level to Cleric 4, added to Good and Glory domains at 3.
    26/5/16: Corrected Range and target, altered weapon charging.
    23/6/16: Removed weapon charging, removed holy weapon as DF option. Clarified the bolts count as thrown weapons
    Last edited by Sayt; 2016-06-22 at 03:10 PM.
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    Glorious Thunder - The God's own wrath as a Paladin's ranged option.

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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    .
    I'd apply the following changes:
    1. Evocation; Cleric 4, Paladin 3
    2. SR: No
    3. Fixed damage: 5d10 + Cha-mod

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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayt View Post
    So, I've been thinking of a spell which I think is evocative and Iconic, but not well implemented in Pathfinder and D&D 3.5, which is that of Holy warriors throwing lightning, so I've put this together.
    Why not just look into adding Call Lightning to the Paladin and Cleric spell lists? It would do the same thing without necessitating an entirely new spell.
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    .
    I'd apply the following changes:
    1. Evocation; Cleric 4, Paladin 3
    2. SR: No
    3. Fixed damage: 5d10 + Cha-mod
    Okay, as a flavour thing, I don't feel evocation is appropriate because that school creates matter or energy out of nowhere, where as the flavour for this spell is supposed to be that you are calling something to this location from another.

    Part of the reason is that it's Paladin 2 is because I wanted it to phase in as flying creatures became common, but before reliable methods of player flight are affordable. I could perhaps see it going up to cleric 4, as they do have other blasts

    And as a personal choice, I do like scaling rather than fixed damage, as I feel it provides a nice sense of progression and it keeps spells somewhat relevant throughout progression of the game.

    SR: No would make sense, as it does require a to-hit, and a large part of the targets of Clerics and Paladins (Outsiders of opposed alignment) are going to have decent SR. ...that and it targets the thrower, not the person the bolts are thrown at, hrrm, good catch!

    Quote Originally Posted by ThePurple View Post
    Why not just look into adding Call Lightning to the Paladin and Cleric spell lists? It would do the same thing without necessitating an entirely new spell.
    Well, Call Lightning isn't really the flavour I wanted? Call lightning feels more like manipulating the weather itself to call down mundane lightning bolts on peoples heads, whereas I wanted a spell which lets Paladin's and clerics biff bolts at people from their own hands. Furthermore, this spell is designed so that it can be cast on an ally for them to make the attacks, giving say, the fighter ally a semi-potent ranged attack.
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayt View Post
    Okay, as a flavour thing, I don't feel evocation is appropriate because that school creates matter or energy out of nowhere, where as the flavour for this spell is supposed to be that you are calling something to this location from another.

    Part of the reason is that it's Paladin 2 is because I wanted it to phase in as flying creatures became common, but before reliable methods of player flight are affordable. I could perhaps see it going up to cleric 4, as they do have other blasts

    And as a personal choice, I do like scaling rather than fixed damage, as I feel it provides a nice sense of progression and it keeps spells somewhat relevant throughout progression of the game.

    SR: No would make sense, as it does require a to-hit, and a large part of the targets of Clerics and Paladins (Outsiders of opposed alignment) are going to have decent SR. ...that and it targets the thrower, not the person the bolts are thrown at, hrrm, good catch!
    Ok. In that case, I'm with you all the way.

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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    To start, love this. Very Praise the Sun.

    As far as review, mechanically you should specify whether ranged weapons bestow the enchantment on ammunition they fire, as the closest similar spell, Bless Weapon, does not.

    Also, I feel the bolts and the weapon blessing should be separate spells. Weapon augmenting spells tend to be Transmutation schooled, whereas the throwing portion makes sense for Conjuration. At the least this would suggest the spell be dual-schooled, but I feel makes a stronger case for separate spells. If it were, say, a class feature instead, then putting them both in the same place makes more sense, but spells are already easier to acquire and use, so I would separate them.

    Lastly, I would make it Cleric 4 and give it to a relevent domain at 3rd, because domains are neat and Clerics don't need the early help so much.

    Also the entry still says SR yes, just to point it out (and the formatting on it is a bit off)

    Love the entry, might even try to use it myself sometime :D
    Last edited by ShiningStarling; 2016-05-24 at 02:22 PM.

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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviMancer View Post
    To start, love this. Very Praise the Sun.

    As far as review, mechanically you should specify whether ranged weapons bestow the enchantment on ammunition they fire, as the closest similar spell, Bless Weapon, does not.

    Also, I feel the bolts and the weapon blessing should be separate spells. Weapon augmenting spells tend to be Transmutation schooled, whereas the throwing portion makes sense for Conjuration. At the least this would suggest the spell be dual-schooled, but I feel makes a stronger case for separate spells. If it were, say, a class feature instead, then putting them both in the same place makes more sense, but spells are already easier to acquire and use, so I would separate them.

    Lastly, I would make it Cleric 4 and give it to a relevent domain at 3rd, because domains are neat and Clerics don't need the early help so much.

    Also the entry still says SR yes, just to point it out (and the formatting on it is a bit off)

    Love the entry, might even try to use it myself sometime :D
    Y'know, I've been playing Dark Souls recently, and it didn't connect! I actually had this idea before I started that game.

    Does Bless weapon really not...
    >Goes and Looks>
    Well thats... nope, nothing good to say about that, will put in clarifying language. Cleric 4 and, hmm... Good Domain 3, perhaps?

    As for splitting...I don't really want to, but thinking about it, I may make the spell bolts or ranged weapon only, but I'll have to give it a think. I also like the versatility of it on paladin's who don't get many casts per day and getting screwed if they don't prep the ranged option.

    Thanks for the feedback, glad you like it!
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    Glorious Thunder - The God's own wrath as a Paladin's ranged option.

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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Each bolt deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (max 5d8) plus your charisma modifier
    As this is for clerics and paladins would having it be casting ability score modifier make sense?
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Hyena View Post
    As this is for clerics and paladins would having it be casting ability score modifier make sense?
    You channel the wrath of your god. Common sense dictates that such power would be augmented by one's force of personality.

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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by nonsi View Post
    You channel the wrath of your god. Common sense dictates that such power would be augmented by one's force of personality.
    So the attack roll should also be made with charisma?
    Last edited by Final Hyena; 2016-05-25 at 09:58 AM.
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Hyena View Post
    So the attack roll should also be made with charisma?
    Not sure. It could, but ranged-touch is hand-eye based, so either is ok, I guess.

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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    If power from the gods is determined by your force of personality shouldn't all cleric spells have their DCs based on Charisma?
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    The way I figured it, Paladins get their power through force of will and sheer will to do good, thus charisma. Clerics get their power from divine revelation, which is why their caster stat is also tied to perception. Having a higher force of personality lets your shift more Wrath through the bolts.

    That's my reasoning, anyway.

    Secondly, channel energy means that charisma is a secondary stat for clerics, and in my mind operates a similar way. There's also the wormcan of "Was 3.5/PF correct to have every spell/caster system run of one ability score", which I don't want to open right now, because I think whether or not you focused hard on charisma, the spell would remain a decent choice at cleric 4.

    Thoughts?
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    You can reasonably decide to use one of several stats for many situations, I was more concerned with balance.

    Using casting stat to damage would make the spell better for clerics who tend to focus wisdom more than paladins focus charisma, but on the flip side paladins have a better bab so it should even out.
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Hyena View Post
    If power from the gods is determined by your force of personality shouldn't all cleric spells have their DCs based on Charisma?
    Honestly, I missed this when I replied this morning, as I'd been awake for 20~ minutes, but honestly if I was designing the game I'd strongly consider going down that road, to be honest.

    Quote Originally Posted by Final Hyena View Post
    You can reasonably decide to use one of several stats for many situations, I was more concerned with balance.

    Using casting stat to damage would make the spell better for clerics who tend to focus wisdom more than paladins focus charisma, but on the flip side paladins have a better bab so it should even out.
    Well, Clerics get alignment blasting, and a bevy of great buffs like Righteous Might and Divine Might. So with some careful spell selection, a Cleric can mix it up admirably in either Melee, and can fall back on ranged blast spells or at range (Influenced by their feat choices, of course). spells like Order's Wrath et al don't pack the same single target damage as a full attack from Godbolts, but they have AOE and debuff while doing damage (Blasting isn't fantastic, but it's a ranged damage option)

    Paladins, on the other hand, are limited to being good at either ranged or melee. This spell lets melee based Paladins and Fighters pick up a bow and get some flat damage.

    ...which, y'know, on thinking about it, could be an argument for making it casting stat to damage, rather than only charisma, as it's a spell you can cast on allies, and in that role it'd be better for a Cleric to hand out to his allies. Bares thinking about!
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    You might want to clean up the spell a bit. Some of the language is confusing. How many bolts do you summon? Do they each do 1d8+ caster's charisma modifier? [It may not be a bonus].

    (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) belongs in range not in target.

    How many attacks can you make?

    Duration doesn't make sense to me. How many rounds per level?

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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    You might want to clean up the spell a bit. Some of the language is confusing. How many bolts do you summon? Do they each do 1d8+ caster's charisma modifier? [It may not be a bonus].

    (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) belongs in range not in target.

    How many attacks can you make?

    Duration doesn't make sense to me. How many rounds per level?

    Debby
    You can have one bolt summoned at a time, and can summon any number of bolts within the duration of the spell. I have tweaked the language to reflect this a little better.

    The bolts count as weapons when they aren't charging weapons, so you can make as many attacks as your BAB allows per round.

    I have corrected some of the range/duration stuff, and reworked the language to hopefully make the weapon charging clearer.
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    ... since forming them is a free action, I can see a really fun TWF build for Paladins with this spell... almost fun enough to make me play a Paladin ever... OK fine basically nothing short of a total redo can make me play a paladin, but still could be cool, maybe a fighter/archivist build... but yeah, TWF, throwing two handfuls of bolts at 5d8 touch attack a pop for a few rounds, sounds pretty freaking awesome.
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by ObliviMancer View Post
    ... since forming them is a free action, I can see a really fun TWF build for Paladins with this spell... almost fun enough to make me play a Paladin ever... OK fine basically nothing short of a total redo can make me play a paladin, but still could be cool, maybe a fighter/archivist build... but yeah, TWF, throwing two handfuls of bolts at 5d8 touch attack a pop for a few rounds, sounds pretty freaking awesome.
    I personally quite like the Pathfinder Paladin, myself, but then I have some possibly odd views on their CoC which may not mesh well with other's readings, but I'm glad you like the image!

    But, having thought about it, I now have some concerns. Namely, is this spell too much of a but for ranged weapon specialists in the mid-to-late game? Funslingers and dedicated arrowstorm archers do plenty of damage as-is, do they really need another 5d8+5 (average of 27~) damage per shot?

    To this I'm proposing a change for discussion: When charging a weapon via the second clause of the spell, the damage boost switches to 1d8 per 4 caster levels, and the casting stat to damage replaces any previous stat-to-damage.

    Any comments?
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Sayt View Post
    I personally quite like the Pathfinder Paladin, myself, but then I have some possibly odd views on their CoC which may not mesh well with other's readings, but I'm glad you like the image!

    But, having thought about it, I now have some concerns. Namely, is this spell too much of a but for ranged weapon specialists in the mid-to-late game? Funslingers and dedicated arrowstorm archers do plenty of damage as-is, do they really need another 5d8+5 (average of 27~) damage per shot?

    To this I'm proposing a change for discussion: When charging a weapon via the second clause of the spell, the damage boost switches to 1d8 per 4 caster levels, and the casting stat to damage replaces any previous stat-to-damage.

    Any comments?
    I would make it a separate spells, though of course I have said that here before. Thing about weapon buff spells is they don'the have much scaling, because weapons themselves already get decent fighter scaling, adding scaling damage to the things you mentioned could be problematic. Another solution could be to make it personal range, make it so only pallies and Clerics can do it for their own held weapons, a nice gateway for the optimizing crowd to have to get through.
    Last edited by ShiningStarling; 2016-06-01 at 06:26 PM.

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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Your spell range is less than the weapon range so the attack would fail if the bolt were thrown 60 feet. You need to fix this.

    Glorious Thunder
    School: Conjuration [Good]
    Level: Cleric 4, Glory 3, Good 3, Paladin 2
    Casting Time: 1 full round
    Components: V, S, DF (a fulgurite worth at least 25 gp per caster level or a Holy weapon)
    Range: Long (400 ft + 40 ft./caster level)
    Target: One creature within a 30-foot radius
    Effect: Divine thunderbolts
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    You call to hand bolts of the Gods' own thunder. While this spell is active, the target may make attacks with these bolts as if making thrown weapon attacks, however, these attacks are touch attacks and use the caster's casting ability score in place of target's Dexterity or Strength score for these attacks. Each bolt deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8) plus caster's Charisma bonus (if any), and has a range increment of 60 feet (maximum range is 300 feet). Half of the damage dealt by these bolts is electricity, and half is divine energy as per flamestrike. A new bolt may be called to hand as a free action within the duration of the spell, so long as a bolt is not currently in hand.

    Alternatively, the target of this spell may charge a single Holy melee or ranged weapon (including thrown weapons) as a free action. A charged weapon deals additional damage equal to a bolt generated by glorious thunder, and a thrown weapon increases its maximum range to 60 ft. (if it is less), but does not target touch AC. This charge persists until the end of the round in which the weapon leaves the user's possession (such as via being thrown or being disarmed), or until the duration of the spell ends.
    Last edited by Debihuman; 2016-06-03 at 11:15 AM.
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Debihuman View Post
    Your spell range is less than the weapon range so the attack would fail if the bolt were thrown 60 feet. You need to fix this.

    Glorious Thunder
    School: Conjuration [Good]
    Level: Cleric 4, Glory 3, Good 3, Paladin 2
    Casting Time: 1 full round
    Components: V, S, DF (a fulgurite worth at least 25 gp per caster level or a Holy weapon)
    Range: Long (400 ft + 40 ft./caster level)
    Target: One creature within a 30-foot radius
    Effect: Divine thunderbolts
    Duration: 1 round/level
    Saving Throw: None
    Spell Resistance: No

    You call to hand bolts of the Gods' own thunder. While this spell is active, the target may make attacks with these bolts as if making thrown weapon attacks, however, these attacks are touch attacks and use the caster's casting ability score in place of target's Dexterity or Strength score for these attacks. Each bolt deals 1d8 points of damage per two caster levels (maximum 5d8) plus caster's Charisma bonus (if any), and has a range increment of 60 feet (maximum range is 300 feet). Half of the damage dealt by these bolts is electricity, and half is divine energy as per flamestrike. A new bolt may be called to hand as a free action within the duration of the spell, so long as a bolt is not currently in hand.

    Alternatively, the target of this spell may charge a single Holy melee or ranged weapon (including thrown weapons) as a free action. A charged weapon deals additional damage equal to a bolt generated by glorious thunder, and a thrown weapon increases its maximum range to 60 ft. (if it is less), but does not target touch AC. This charge persists until the end of the round in which the weapon leaves the user's possession (such as via being thrown or being disarmed), or until the duration of the spell ends.

    Okay, so I looked into this, and I can see where you're coming from, but I don't agree with your reading of the rules. Fundamentally, the thrown bolts of lightning are not the spell. The capacity to summon and throw the bolts is the spell.

    The target defines who ths spell effects. The range gives you the list of valid targets.

    I think (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're getting caught up on "If any portion of the spell's area would extend beyond this range, that area is wasted.", but that is germane to spells with an area, this is a single target spell. Does that make sense?
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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    I'd note that if the spell does electricity damage, it should have the [Electricity] tag.

    I'd disallow this spell in my game for using the conjuration spell exploit to get it unaffected by spell resistance. It's even worse when the spell clearly is based off Flamestrike, and that is an Evocation that allows for spell resistance.

    And then to make it really unbalanced, this spell can charge up a melee weapon too?

    A good way to tell if a spell is broken is to ask the simple question of ''what would I say if this spell was used against my character?" Would you be all right with the normal damage an attack does, plus 5d8 more damage? Every round?

    Also the spell is not really ''thunder'', it's ''lightning''....

  24. - Top - End - #24
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: The Gods' Own Thunder [PEACH]

    Quote Originally Posted by Darth Ultron View Post
    I'd note that if the spell does electricity damage, it should have the [Electricity] tag.

    I'd disallow this spell in my game for using the conjuration spell exploit to get it unaffected by spell resistance. It's even worse when the spell clearly is based off Flamestrike, and that is an Evocation that allows for spell resistance.

    And then to make it really unbalanced, this spell can charge up a melee weapon too?

    A good way to tell if a spell is broken is to ask the simple question of ''what would I say if this spell was used against my character?" Would you be all right with the normal damage an attack does, plus 5d8 more damage? Every round?

    Also the spell is not really ''thunder'', it's ''lightning''....
    Electricity tag is a good point, and while I know that thunder is the shockwave caused by the lightning, I think Glorious Thunder is a better title, although that is just personal aesthetics.

    In post #19 I floated some potential rebalances for this spell, I take it you would be in favour of something along those lines?

    I am also thinking I might follow ObliviMancer's suggestion of splitting the spell into one spell for charging and another for throwing.
    Baruk Khazd! Khazd ai-mnu!

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    Glorious Thunder - The God's own wrath as a Paladin's ranged option.

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