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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    This is my attempt at sorting 5eD&D's spells per colors according to the Magic the Gathering card game.

    I'm not sure where I'm going with this; this is mostly a thought experiment. Anyhow, I'm not an expert at MtG so your help would be very appreciated.

    Spells List per Colors

    'findel

    [edit] oh, and I didn't know where to put prismatic spray and prismatic wall.
    Last edited by Laurefindel; 2016-06-07 at 06:33 PM.
    'findel

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurefindel View Post
    This is my attempt at sorting 5eD&D's spells per colors according to the Magic the Gathering card game.

    I'm not sure where I'm going with this; this is mostly a thought experiment. Anyhow, I'm not an expert at MtG so your help would be very appreciated.

    Spells List per Colors

    'findel

    [edit] oh, and I didn't know where to put prismatic spray and prismatic wall.
    Artifact clearly. Sunburst for mechanic.
    Life is precious, guard it will your soul.

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Oooh, that's pretty good! All those really all spells? Problem is that some lists are unbalanced... red, for examply have only one 9th level spell. Gate could be added there (and to green): it can summon any creature that's on a different plane: elementals, dragons, various monsters...
    It's Eberron, not ebberon.
    It's not high magic, it's wide magic.
    And it's definitely not steampunk. The only time steam gets involved is when the fire and water elementals get loose.

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    [OP link updated to version 1.1] spell list are *a bit* more balanced. Red and Green are still a bit short, and Blue is still disproportionally large, but it’s a bit better.

    Good idea for Sunburst mechanic, I think I'm going in that direction for prismatic spray/wall, and for a few other spells where the effect would depend on the mana color used to fuel the spell (like chromatic orb or gate). It's just unfortunate that there's also a sunburst spell...

    I need your opinion on the following spells (bonus point if you can back-up your reasoning with an existing card)

    Storm of vengeance - green yay or nay?
    Phantasmal force/killer, weird etc - available to black and blue or just black (blue already has many spells)
    Wish - blue; blue and white; each color; sunburst?
    Earthquake - red and green; red only?
    Mind blank - blue and white; blue only?
    Flesh to Stone - green and red; green only?
    Forbiddance - white and green; white only?
    Destructing wave - white and red; red only?
    Legend lore – white, black and blue; blue only?
    Passwall – red and green; red only?
    Raise dead – white and black; white only?
    Scrying – blue and black; blue only?
    Divination – blue and white; blue only?
    Guardian of faith – white and black; black only?
    Locate creature – white and blue; blue only?
    Remove curse – white and green; white only?
    Produce flame – red, redundant with flame bolt. Give it to green?
    Last edited by Laurefindel; 2016-06-04 at 11:11 AM.
    'findel

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Yes on storm of vengeance for green. Green has storm - themed spells- desert twister, tornado, tornado elemental.

    Yes on PK being U/B- illusions so real they can hurt you is a U thing. See any creature with "jace's" in the name

    Wish to me is either colorless or 5-color, since it can do anything. If used to copy a specific spell, it's probably that spell's color
    Last edited by PotatoGolem; 2016-06-04 at 11:43 AM.

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Are you going to allow any spell caster to pick a Color? So Green Sorcerers and Blue Paladins?

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by 8wGremlin View Post
    Are you going to allow any spell caster to pick a Color? So Green Sorcerers and Blue Paladins?
    I'm not sure if I will ever do anything with that but yes, the idea is that characters have color(s) instead of alignment, and casters can pick spells according to their color(s) instead of according to their class, but keep their class features.

    So yes, green sorcerers and blue paladins, but also black/red druids and blue/white wizards (who can also learn and cast red spells if they have an artifact that converts colorless mana to red mana). Casters of pure color will have access to exclusive spells, which I'm in the process of selecting.

    Balance will probably be skewed and amendments will have to be made, but I haven't give much thought to that yet. For example I don't know what to do with class-expanded spell lists, like domain spells or warlock patron spells. Perhaps nothing should be changed there; simplicity if often the key.
    Last edited by Laurefindel; 2016-06-04 at 07:02 PM.
    'findel

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurefindel View Post
    [OP link updated to version 1.1] spell list are *a bit* more balanced. Red and Green are still a bit short, and Blue is still disproportionally large, but it’s a bit better.

    Good idea for Sunburst mechanic, I think I'm going in that direction for prismatic spray/wall, and for a few other spells where the effect would depend on the mana color used to fuel the spell (like chromatic orb or gate). It's just unfortunate that there's also a sunburst spell...

    I need your opinion on the following spells (bonus point if you can back-up your reasoning with an existing card)

    Storm of vengeance - green yay or nay?
    Phantasmal force/killer, weird etc - available to black and blue or just black (blue already has many spells)
    Wish - blue; blue and white; each color; sunburst?
    Earthquake - red and green; red only?
    Mind blank - blue and white; blue only?
    Flesh to Stone - green and red; green only?
    Forbiddance - white and green; white only?
    Destructing wave - white and red; red only?
    Legend lore – white, black and blue; blue only?
    Passwall – red and green; red only?
    Raise dead – white and black; white only?
    Scrying – blue and black; blue only?
    Divination – blue and white; blue only?
    Guardian of faith – white and black; black only?
    Locate creature – white and blue; blue only?
    Remove curse – white and green; white only?
    Produce flame – red, redundant with flame bolt. Give it to green?
    On my phone so apologies for making this brief. Yes, black only, all; red and green; blue only, green only, white only; white and green; white and red; white, black and blue; red and green; black and white; blue only, white only, white only, all; white and green; give it to green.
    Last edited by Logosloki; 2016-06-04 at 07:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    So for me wish is black - a tutor that lets you get ANY spell but with a potentially steep cost and a Djinn trying to screw you over?

    Legend lore on the other hand I see as just being blue.

    Raise dead - could either be black or white, depending on ethos. Probably both.

    Divination - again I would go for pure blue, although you have a lot of blue already. Maybe have it depend on the type? Skeletal scrying themed divination in black, augry in white and so on?

    Earthquake - depends how you see earth. If it is elemental earth i would say red. If the basis of nature (a la land druid) then green. Both work (just as other spells are on two lists).

    Remove curse - white only. I can see green having protective elements but only healing/protection from physical/elemental attacks.

    Flesh to stone - could be a lot. Red covered elemental earth, green turning something to an element of nature, black as a nasty curse effect... Balance around number of available spells?

    Of the others, not specifically listed:

    I am not sure I am on-board with smites as being white by default. Sure paladins get them but if you are contemplating a more generic system then maybe this is not the case. You also have the oathbreaker which is decidedly black (so i do see other colours get them, but some don't seem white themed - once you get past the class).

    Swiftquiver in green? I would suggest white, possibly as well. The martial training and archery component could fit either.

    Spirit guardians not in black? Summoning spirits to do necrotic damage? I could see spiritual weapon as well if you are summoning ghosts to attack people.

    Blue has a lot of spells, I think some could safely go. Shield to white only? Mage armour could maybe stay. Hold person - not sure? Fire shield? Polymorph? Contact other plane can work for blue, but wouldn't be a controversial omission either. Dispel evil and good I see as more a black/white spell. Hold monster? Conjure fey? Eldritch blast - seems odd to give blue the best direct damage, seems a solid black spell to me?

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Clone, Astral Projection, Demiplane, Power Word Stun: How are these not black? Why are these Blue?

    Magnificent Mansion, Mordenkainen's Sword: Why are these not white?

    Reverse Gravity, Glibness, Mass Suggestion, Irresistible Dance, Flame Strike, Sunbeam, Sunburst, Blade Barrier: Why are these not Red?
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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Clone, Astral Projection, Demiplane, Power Word Stun: How are these not black? Why are these Blue?

    Magnificent Mansion, Mordenkainen's Sword: Why are these not white?

    Reverse Gravity, Glibness, Mass Suggestion, Irresistible Dance, Flame Strike, Sunbeam, Sunburst, Blade Barrier: Why are these not Red?
    Some of these I see as ok. Sunbeam/sunburst are light based, which seems white to me. Flamestrike is fire and radiant - so is probably both. Blade barrier also "seems" white to me but harder to justify. The others - not sure I see enchantment/mind control spells as red, although red and black have sometimes had dominate type effects.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    Some of these I see as ok. Sunbeam/sunburst are light based, which seems white to me. Flamestrike is fire and radiant - so is probably both. Blade barrier also "seems" white to me but harder to justify. The others - not sure I see enchantment/mind control spells as red, although red and black have sometimes had dominate type effects.
    Direct damage is very, very rarely purely White, and even light-based effects are often Red in flavor. Moreover, mechanically, the direct damage for White is taking a lot out of Red's color pie, and it does need something. Blade Barrier being White is possible, as White does have a Wall of Swords card, but in Magic it's much closer to Circle of Flame and Wall of Razors (which, incidentally, is also a Wall of Blades).

    Regardless, temporary mind control, a la Act of Treason or Insurrection cards and Suggestion or Mass Suggestion spells, respectively, are very Red in Magic, with some very, very rare bleed into Blue. Blue's list is extremely bloated right now, and clearly cutting off segments for the other high-spell colors, Red and Black, is important.
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    Orc in the Playground
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    annoyed Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Those are great guys, keep them coming!

    I put clone as Blue because of the blue clone card, but I agree that it is very black in philosophy. Demiplane as black? Can you elaborate (not that I have a good argument in favor of blue...)
    'findel

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurefindel View Post
    Those are great guys, keep them coming!

    I put clone as Blue because of the blue clone card, but I agree that it is very black in philosophy. Demiplane as black? Can you elaborate (not that I have a good argument in favor of blue...)
    If anything, I would say Demiplane is colorless. It seems to fit in with different artifacts like the Prototype Portal. Clone is a hard one to fit...
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurefindel View Post
    Those are great guys, keep them coming!

    I put clone as Blue because of the blue clone card, but I agree that it is very black in philosophy. Demiplane as black? Can you elaborate (not that I have a good argument in favor of blue...)
    The Magic clone is basically Simulacrum, while the D&D clone is basically a Lich effect; I can see the confusion, but I just wanted to make that clear.

    The reason I put Demiplane at Black is Praetor's Grasp, Fiend of the Shadows, and Colfenor's plans. Black enjoys hiding goodies where opponents can't touch them, which is something Demiplane is very good at modeling. Looking back, I'd also wonder if Modify Memory isn't also a Black effect, from Surgical Extraction, Sadistic Sacrament, Memoricide, and similar effects.
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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by Fable Wright View Post
    Direct damage is very, very rarely purely White, and even light-based effects are often Red in flavor. Moreover, mechanically, the direct damage for White is taking a lot out of Red's color pie, and it does need something. Blade Barrier being White is possible, as White does have a Wall of Swords card, but in Magic it's much closer to Circle of Flame and Wall of Razors (which, incidentally, is also a Wall of Blades).

    Regardless, temporary mind control, a la Act of Treason or Insurrection cards and Suggestion or Mass Suggestion spells, respectively, are very Red in Magic, with some very, very rare bleed into Blue. Blue's list is extremely bloated right now, and clearly cutting off segments for the other high-spell colors, Red and Black, is important.
    I think that white has plenty of spells to do damage to creatures, not as many as red and red should have the better spells but white does have a good number.

    I also think it is dangerous to talk of colour pie. White spells to deal with creatures tend to simply remove them from the game, something appropriate for higher level spells only. To maintain some spells in different roles at different levels damaging spells need to be spread accross colours.

    Furthermore, white deals damage through creatures - unless a lot of summoning spells are added to the colour this isn't true and balance has to be found elsewhere.

    Regarding blue getting mental domination effects, more come to mind than red - control magic, vedalken shackles, take possession etc.. slight presence in red and a little in black (but can't remember the name of the black cards off the top of my head).

    Red does need a slightly expanded list but between lightening and fire damage (which cover the best damage spells), and stone, lava and earth themed spells there is a real range. As red covers most elemental damage adding in EE spells will swing things more in red's favour.

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    Orc in the Playground
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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    That's true, I never thought of adding EE spells, which would be fitting in this context.
    'findel

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    What is the Sunburst Mechanic?
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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by Petrocorus View Post
    What is the Sunburst Mechanic?
    The spell has different effects based on which mana color was used to fuel it. For example, Protection from Good and Evil will only protect from evil if you used only white mana, and chromatic orb can only produce cold damage is you cast it as a blue spell. Angels cannot be summoned through a Gate spells if you use black mana etc.

    I agree that it will need to be clearly defined
    Last edited by Laurefindel; 2016-06-05 at 10:32 AM.
    'findel

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Thank you.
    I haven't played MtG in a long while, bbut i always liked the division of Magic into 5 colors. I would have loved to play a MtG RPG.
    I'm thinking about using this in my homebbrew setting.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sam K View Post
    Sun Tzu never had tier problems. If he had to deal with D&D, the Art of War would read "Full casters or GTFO".
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    Common sense is for commoners, not for [ PC ].

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Updated Document

    I didn't keep a proper changelog, but here are the highlights:

    Remove curse is white and green – there are several green cards that remove an aura. Likewise with greater restoration.

    Swift Quiver is now green and white – cause white = protection and green needs spells…

    Guardian Spirit is now white and black and guardian of faith is white only – I had the two spells confused.

    Shield is now white only – blue has enough spells.

    Dispel Good and Evil is now white and black only - they are too thematic to be green or blue

    Eldritch blast is now red only – although I wonder if it could fit black…

    Clone, astral projection and power word stun are now black spells. Should demiplane be white and black or black only?

    I’m keeping radiant-dealing spells with white (although red now has flame strike as well). White does not deal damage but has a few cards where creatures are removed from play. Let’s pretend its trhough those spells.

    Magnificient mansion an Mordenkainen sword are now white

    Blue has some (wind) fae cards, hence conjure fey.

    Fireshield has the cold version, hence blue (now has sunburst tag)

    Modify memory is now black

    Raise dead is now green only. Green has several cards bringing back creatures from the graveyard, white has… none that I know of, but my knowledge is limited. I left resurrection to white however.

    Phantasmal Force/Killer and weird are now black. Despite a few of Jace’s spells, I see it mostly as a black thing.
    'findel

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Green white and black all have graveyard return. Reanimate, animate dead, exhume in black as the classic examples.

    I can remember a couple of white cards as well, just trying g to remember their names...

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    'findel

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurefindel View Post
    You could slightly better balance the spell lists by making wind spells exclusively green. Warding wind, investiture of wind, skywrite, gust of wind etc.. Hurricane, simoon, tornado are all green I think...

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by MrStabby View Post
    You could slightly better balance the spell lists by making wind spells exclusively green. Warding wind, investiture of wind, skywrite, gust of wind etc.. Hurricane, simoon, tornado are all green I think...
    you're probably right.

    Funny, I though hurricane was a blue card. I think I owned it too. Now if i could ever figure out what happened to those cards...
    'findel

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Some issues with the U spell list (level 1 for now)

    Why is mage armor blue? Protection spells are a W thing, and blue is already super strong. Animal Friendship should be G. Detect Evil and Good could just as easily be W/B as U, since it's not an effect that exists in MtG. Magic missile also seems super weird as U, which gets neither creature removal nor direct damage. Make it colorless, R, or B.

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by PotatoGolem View Post
    Some issues with the U spell list (level 1 for now)

    Why is mage armor blue? Protection spells are a W thing, and blue is already super strong. Animal Friendship should be G. Detect Evil and Good could just as easily be W/B as U, since it's not an effect that exists in MtG. Magic missile also seems super weird as U, which gets neither creature removal nor direct damage. Make it colorless, R, or B.
    Prodigal Sorcerer was the foundation for Magic Missile as a blue spell. But yeah, I need to revisit the blue spells. I was too quickly on the "blue = enchantment"
    'findel

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurefindel View Post
    Prodigal Sorcerer was the foundation for Magic Missile as a blue spell. But yeah, I need to revisit the blue spells. I was too quickly on the "blue = enchantment"
    Well enchantment may come down to the flavour a bit. Dancing faeries in the woods has a bit of a different flavour to vampiric domination or demonic mind-rape. Enchantment school seems like it could be blue or black (possibly green if fay go to green), even a touch of red in there as well.


    Magic missile feels blue to me - but that isn't a strong argument and i can't back it up.


    Re: Hurricane - am I thinking of the right card? I remember one being g+x and one being 1g (flashback 1g) but I could be very confused as to which is which.

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Hurricane is a green card, but it used to be blue in the early days of Magic. Probably worth a fortune now...
    'findel

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    Default Re: Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

    Quote Originally Posted by Laurefindel View Post
    Hurricane is a green card, but it used to be blue in the early days of Magic. Probably worth a fortune now...
    Ah, I thought there was a blue missprint. Probably my memory playing tricks.

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