Spell list as Color - a D&D / MtG crossover

[PotatoGolem]

The blue Hurricane is indeed a misprint. Even in Alpha, Hurricane is green.

http://mtgsalvation.gamepedia.com/Blue_Hurricane

[Fable Wright]

Spells that feel off:

Spoiler: White

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Radiant Flame/Guiding Bolt. Radiant all being White, sure, symbolism and so on. Problem: Direct damage is Red turf, White has about 50% more spells than Red, and Red's 'cannot be regenerated' or exile on death clauses are sufficiently anti-undead to justify their share of Radiant damage over the bloated and powerful protection color.

Bane. White doesn't debuff, ever. This is very much a Black or Blue effect.

Command in White, though that might be okay if flavored as a tap effect.

Detect Poison and Disease in White. I view these detection spells as Blue/Green, because of two cards: Spy Network and Revealing Wind. Both allow you to look at hidden information in play, which is out of White's color pie. I'd argue this as Green, because of the nature tie; White is good at removing poison and disease, but Green is just as good, with a few natural tricks up its sleeve as well.

Augury is textbook Scrying or Fateseal, which are both very Blue mechanics, and not very White ones. Would remove from White list.

Cloud of Daggers: This is a Red effect. Cordon of Arrows is fine as a guarding spell, but Cloud is still direct damage that doesn't even have the Radiant type. I'm reluctantly conceding Conjure Barrage to White, as archery is a very White thing, but please leave something to Red.

Glyph of Warding/Symbol: Sunburst or Red. Red does have similar effects in Ashenmoor Liege, Lava Runner, Retromancer, and Thunderbreak Regent, but Blue and Black tend to have drawbacks when targeted, and White/Blue sometimes have protection effects when targeted. Creating a trap that leads to a damaging effect is very much a Red thing.

Revivify is the Regeneration mechanic and should probably should be in Green as well or, perhaps, exclusively. Create Food and Water is something I'd argue to be in Green instead of White, as green has very few effects and cares about things like food and water, while White just cares about service.

Divination is regrettably pure Blue. Information gathering is the one thing White does not do in the card game, along with messing with opponents' hands.

Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound: You're summoning a trained beast to attack your enemies. Green it, please.

Commune: Still Blue.

Dispel Evil and Good: Shouldn't be Sunburst, should probably just be pure White/Black.

Greater Restoration should be Green as well as White; in Magic, it's just as powerful a color at Lifegain and debilitation removal. See Melira.

Blade Barrier: Red needs spells bad. This is literally Wall of Razors. I don't get why this is White.

Forbiddance: This is basically the Aesceticism card or Privileged Position. This should be Green. Actually, for similar reasons, Crusader's Mantle should also be green. Maybe it, Heal, and Mass Cure Light Wounds should be mono-green; effects like Golgari Charm and Wrap in Vigor have zero analogues in White, and Green's list is looking anemic.

Primordial Ward: You insist on giving White effects like Radiant Damage and Holy Aura on flavor alone, but don't give this to Green? Green is into enchantments that strengthen and protect its creatures! Again, Asceticism!

Astral Projection: Please explain why this is White.

Bear in mind that I'm going to mercilessly tear into Blue's list, given how bloated it is, and try to reassign as many effects as humanly possible to bring something resembling color equity to the list. Part of the problem is how you lump all information gathering spells into Blue. Blue gains information about what could be—scry, card draw, library manipulation—while Green gains information about the world as it is (as a tertiary card draw color, it does need a unique information gathering schtick) and Black gains information about how it can shape the world (which doesn't come up as much in D&D). Effects like Commune With Nature, Detect Good and Evil, and similar things should probably go into the poor, neglected Green lists, rather than going straight to Blue.

I'm not being critical of your decision; D&D's design team ran into a similar issue of 'throw everything into Transmutation and Conjuration' when making their spells, and I can't fault you of defaulting stuff to Blue. However, I'm trying to counterbalance that by expanding the roles of other colors; please don't reject these suggestions out of hand. It's my solution to a problem you might not care about, but many Magic players using the list would appreciate the effort all the same.

Spoiler: Blue

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Animal Friendship: Should be Mono-Green exclusive.

Dissonant Whispers: Most music-based effects are Red, and this is whispering a melody to someone to deal direct damage to them and make them unable to block next turn. Seems Red to me.

Faerie Fire: This is White or Red. Making a creature easier to take out is very White, but Red also has ways to increase damage taken by creatures. It's a toss-up, but definitely not red.

Feather Fall: This prevents damage, which is W/G only. I'd give it to Green on basis of them not having much in the way of spell lists.

Ice Knife: Glacial Ray is a Red spell. Skred deals with Snow permanents, and it's a red spell. Red =/= Fire. Red = direct damage in all forms. This spell is very Red.

Identify: I'd give it to Green due to Blue's bloat and Green not being able to predict the future, but it could technically fit here due to the fact that it works with artifacts.

Detect Evil and Good: This is the kind of information gathering Green can do, while not having the argument of artifact synergy. Should not be Blue.

Grease: This is Red, as it's a 'creatures cannot block and are easier to deal damage to' spell. It could be White, as it could be argued as a 'creature cannot attack or block' spell, and that would be fine too. This is definitely not Blue.

Mage Armor: As touched on, this is White, not Blue.

Magic Missile: Red as a ruby.

Tasha's Hideous Laughter: This is either a White exile effect or a Red creature cannot block effect. Red gets flavor points because it's emotion based, but White gets points for mechanical identity. Either way, not blue at all.

Floating Disk/Unseen Servant: There's an argument for Black here, as these are both vanity spells. Black is the color of someone who has money and wants to show it, or wants to live in luxury, or doesn't want to spend effort to bring all his loot back home. These are ambiguous, and in the interests of divvying up the spells more evenly, I'd take some of the utilitarian spells like this and move them into Black. It's the color of ego, not evil, after all.

Arcane lock: This is strengthening an artifact, not using it. I'd put it in White.

Calm Emotions: It's a tap spell. Let it be a white exclusive, please.

Continual Flame: Red or White, not Blue. I'd give it to red because fire and small list.

Crown of Madness: Black aesthetic, Red mechanic, no Blue to be found here. I'd give this to Black, actually, as an Enslave effect, but Red is good too.

Enthrall: An emotion-based effect that essentially prevents creatures from blocking. I'd give it to Red.

Find Traps, Gust of Wind: Green. Green controls winds, and it gains information about the world as it is. Blue gains information about the world as it could be.

Hold Person: Totally White as a remove from combat spell.

Locate Object: This one could get a pass, as it has that artifact connection, but it could very easily be a very Green information gathering spell.

Magic Weapon: Textbook White buff.

Phantasmal Force: Would definitely put it in Black, as it's a mind control effect that inflicts pain on the enchanted creature.

Rope Trick: I'd give it to Black as a luxury spell, but it could be Blue if the lists look like I'm taking too much from it.

See Invisibility: Green information gathering.

Snowball Swarm: This is very Red, even if it has an ice flavor. Even cold flavored direct damage is Red; see Ice Knife, above.

Warding Wind: This could be White or Green, but is definitely not Blue.

Dispel Magic: Okay, I see why you put it in Blue, but I'd like to point out that the equivalent Magic card? Naturalize/Disenchant. Dispel Magic is a W/G effect, while Counterspell is very Blue. To back up my claim, I'll point out that Druids have this, but not counterspells, and are pretty darn Green, all things considered.

Leomund's Tiny Hut: Let's keep this as a White exclusive to cut down on Blue's list, please.

Slow or Hypnotic Pattern: Remove creatures from combat. One or both of these should be Mono-White.

Wind Wall: Green is the one with the spell and flier hate. This should definitely be a Green effect, not a Blue one.

Banishment: Textbook Journey to Nowhere; would put it mono-White.

Confusion: Red. This is a chaos effect, and Red loves its chaos effects. Warp World to Illicit Auction to Thieves' Auction to so many things, this is Red to the core.

Dominate Beast: ...I want to argue that this is Green, but there's a strong argument for this to stay here.

Fire Shield: Even dealing cold damage, this is a Red spell. See Kessig Forgemaster and Ashmouth Hound; super first-strike, as granted by Fire Shield.

Ice Storm: Still Red. Glacial Ray, Skred, this prevents blocking, etc.

Secret Chest: Black luxury/storage spell, a la Demiplane.

Resilient Sphere: White's exile effects.

Phantasmal Killer: Straight Black death effect.

Storm Sphere: Wind is Green, lightning is Red, neither is Blue. I'll give Watery Sphere a pass here.

Cone of Cold: Standard Frost damage argument being red here.

Conjure Elemental: This is as Green as Green gets, summoning big creatures with some interesting effects. Why is this on the Blue list?

Hold Monster: White.

Maelstrom: I'd argue that this is very Green, in the way Choke is—messing up the day of water-bound creatures is very Green.

Scrying, Telekinesis: I'd call these Black. Hear me out; most 5th level spells here are very well placed, but the list should shrink, and Black presently doesn't have effects mimicking card draw effects. Scrying fills that need with its unique twist of only advancing your ambitions towards a target, rather than Blue's general information gathering. Telekinesis is Black because of the utility/decadence aspect, but also because it's the kind of splashy raw force effect that Black philosophically embodies. Frankly, crushing your enemies under incredibly heavy pillars and force choking them off cliffs seems much more Black as opposed to Blue. I can definitely see why you'd put Telekinesis in Blue in the first place, but in the interest in parity, I'd split it to Black.

Conjure Fey: Amusingly, literally all targets above CR 1/4 or so are either Dryads, Hags, or Beasts like T-Rexes. This is a very Green spell, though Faeries as you've envisioned are indeed Blue. I understand this mistake as a Druid player; it frustrates me to no end.

Guards and Wards: I'd give this to White, as it's reinforcing battlements. Very much a White tactic.

Investiture of Ice/Investiture of Wind: Stormbind is a card that comes to mind here. It was powerful back in the day, and especially in limited. It was made during Coldsnap, and yes, it features wind and snow being a Red/Green exclusive card doing direct damage and killing creatures that attack you. I'd strongly argue for Ice to be Red and Wind to be Green.

Freezing Sphere: Red, as above, Glacial Ray, etc. This time, I'll point out that the freezing effect is reminiscent of Red Elemental Blast, in the form of keeping Blue creatures from joining the fight.

True Seeing: Green is the best at seeing the world as it really is, and this is the kind of information gathering that suits it best. Garruk is the character that sees through Jace's illusions consistently; it fits.

Word of Recall: I'd argue this as an Otherworldly Journey effect, and that it should go to White, supporting this by pointing out that it's a Cleric spell. Could fit here, though.

Forcecage: White exile.

Magnificent Mansion: Demiplane/extravagant luxury effects? I'd request this be Black, please.

Mordenkainen's Sword: It's a terrible spell, so no one cares where it goes. Still, it represents martial might, and I'd suggest that it's best in White.

Reverse Gravity: This is a White/Red effect, taking creatures out of combat. I'd say Red, as it's tied to the earth and has several gravitational screwery cards before, and it turns into amazing damage by letting people fall, but it could go either way. Regardless, I'd say that it shouldn't be Blue.

Symbol: I'd argued for this to be pure Red before, but I'll accede that some of the effects like death could make it Black as well. Should not be Blue in any case; the paranoid mage seeking to turn his castle into a deathtrap is exceedingly Black, even if he does have Blue tinges from his academic nature.

Antipathy/Sympathy: I'd move this to Green only, as it's severely lacking spells and this kind of control over nature is very Green indeed.

Maze: White exile-flavored removal.

Glibness: Emotion-fueled effects are Red. Glibness is about the ego and becoming bigger than you should be; why is the academic mage who's never had to speak with anyone but a professor or student able to become a better speaker than the dynamic bard full of larger than life tales? The former is blue, and the latter is red; who does Glibness suit more?

Mind Blank: Leyline of Sanctity is a White effect, and one of the few spells to shut off discard and other mind manipulation spells.

Imprisonment: This is very Black, as the spell a lich needs to feed his phylactery. It's also very White, as they are masters of binding creatures outside of reality. Blue can do neither, so I'd argue that this effect should not be here.

Weird: As Phantasmal Killer, this is as black as Plague Wind or Damnation.

I think that white has plenty of spells to do damage to creatures, not as many as red and red should have the better spells but white does have a good number.

I also think it is dangerous to talk of colour pie. White spells to deal with creatures tend to simply remove them from the game, something appropriate for higher level spells only. To maintain some spells in different roles at different levels damaging spells need to be spread accross colours.

Furthermore, white deals damage through creatures - unless a lot of summoning spells are added to the colour this isn't true and balance has to be found elsewhere.

My counterpoint: I do, above, leave a good couple of damage spells to White, albeit mostly arrow-based ones. However, White does have a fair number of spells to simply remove creatures from the game after my suggestions—Grease or Tasha's Hideous Laughter, potentially; Banishment, at level 4; Hold Person at level 2; Resilient Sphere... really, Red can have its fun with burn. White has the second largest list in the game right now by a wide margin, and slashing some of its spells would be a good thing. Plus, this helps make Red significantly more mechanically distinct, which tends to be good.

Regarding blue getting mental domination effects, more come to mind than red - control magic, vedalken shackles, take possession etc.. slight presence in red and a little in black (but can't remember the name of the black cards off the top of my head).

Red does need a slightly expanded list but between lightening and fire damage (which cover the best damage spells), and stone, lava and earth themed spells there is a real range. As red covers most elemental damage adding in EE spells will swing things more in red's favour.

Blue, hands down, has the monopoly on permanent mind control spells. Notice how all of the cards you listed last for multiple combat phases. Red has Word of Seizing, Act of Treason, and so many others. Here's a list with roughly 25 different Act of Treason effects, and roughly 25 things that I couldn't get rid of due to templating errors. Temporary control is very Red. Black's control is usually killing the opponent's creature and reanimating it, sometimes at the same time as with Dread Slaver or Soul Collector, but it does have a few effects like Enslave, Ritual of the Machine, Olivia Voldaren, The Wretched, and Captivating Vampire.

[Laurefindel]

very thorough, thanks

Bear in mind that I'm going to mercilessly tear into Blue's list, given how bloated it is, and try to reassign as many effects as humanly possible to bring something resembling color equity to the list.

fair enough

[edit]

Ok, followed the vast majority of your recommendations. Most fitted many of my personal notes

I kept some spells where they were because I though they represented some cards, like air elemental for blue conjure elemental and wall of sword for a white blade barrier, and some because of more emotional reasons, like blue magic missile because of prodigal sorcerer.

I see you point with ice spells being red.

with all of that, White and Blue weight about 125-130 spells, while Green Red and Black have 100-110. It's not equal, but its better distributed.

here's the latest version

[MrStabby]

very thorough, thanks



fair enough

[edit]

Ok, followed the vast majority of your recommendations. Most fitted many of my personal notes

I kept some spells where they were because I though they represented some cards, like air elemental for blue conjure elemental and wall of sword for a white blade barrier, and some because of more emotional reasons, like blue magic missile because of prodigal sorcerer.

I see you point with ice spells being red.

with all of that, White and Blue weight about 125-130 spells, while Green Red and Black have 100-110. It's not equal, but its better distributed.

here's the latest version

This is getting more nicely balanced. To be honest this is looking much better than I thought it would end up being. That said there are a few things I would be tempted to cut/narrow down.

Branding smite? Not sure why it is white. Yes its a paladin spell and paladin is aligned with white but if you are allowing red paladins then it kind of breaks that association. Also Maze on white seems a little tenuous.

Banishment works for white, but I think it can also work for black. Black is the master colour of removal that does not depend on hitpoints. Likewise banishing smite for black knights. If nothing else dark banishing was one of the first cards I played with so some nostalgia there.

Eldritch blast also seems both black and red to me. "Eldritch" to me implies sinister and otherworldly. I see red as the colour of elemental damage and black representing the other aspects of removal.

Mordenkainen's faithful hound is probably a more white than green spell. Domesticated dogs vs wild and all that. Patrol hound and Isamaru spring to mind.

I don't know about the acid spells being in black to be honest. A quick search suggests that it isnt really a theme in magic for black and is stronger for green. Adding some of these to green or even to red to represent acidic soil or similar red cards might bump up that colour and would make space for more of the spells that might be more appropriate from white and blue.

Green looks a good place, but has some oddities. Wish doesnt seem at all a good fit for example. On the other hand I don't get white/red having control weather.

Spells that I think are missing from black: Eldritch blast (but can stay red as well), hold person/monster - the ghoul touch should be black,etherialness (the whole ghost/spirit thing). There is also the whole "evil cleric" thing (cleric spells have gone to white, but many of them don't scream "good cleric", some that can be evil as well could shore up black if it is still a little short - commune, guidance etc.). Commune (its speaking with a deity and black has some good information gathering cards)

Spells that could be considered for red: acid spells, fabricate/mending (simply because of the artefact tinkerer connection),

Spells to consider for white: fly/windwalk (flying is as much a white as a blue thing), etherialness (the whole ghost/spirit thing again). Commune (its speaking with a deity)

Spells to consider for green: any natural disaster - earthquake, tsunami (especially if it shores up the sparse level 8 slots), more of the acid and poison spells, create/destroy food/water might edge in to green.

Spells to consider for blue: Armour of agathys (I wouldn't add it myself but it is a source of cold damage)



So the next big question - how would you see the list being used? It is simple enough to say pick a colour for any class with casting, and it probably works pretty well till you get to domains. My first stab would be to pick spells from an "allied" colour for domain spells (select them when you level up and they don't change).

Others may give rise to some weirdness - black druids might have an odd feel (although swapping beast for undead in the wildshape rules might fix a lot of it.

Another alternative might be to produce some "colourless" spells to be able to be selected for domain spells and to add to the wizard class to compensate them for the loss in spell selection they would have relative to other casters.

The other slight issue is that ranger/paladin spells are treated as others so it is no longer a challenge to have a character pick up swiftquiver at an early level. I don't actually see this as too much of an issue though - a full caster would be making a serious tradeoff putting stats into dex over their casting stat unless they were getting two attacks anyway. Given that this pretty much just covers the valor bard who can do it anyway I think its ok.

[Laurefindel]

At this point I'm making choices based on personal preferences, which can be debated one way or another. Still, i have a few questions.

Where to put the mending/creation/fabricate spells. MrStabby reminded me that red has a few artificer/thinker cards. Enough to go red?

Word of Recall is basically a "return to owner's hand" effect. Right now it's in blue because teleportation is blue, but doesn't white have that type of card too? If not, which color does?

I'm still struggling with charms effects being red or blue. It seems to me that straight domination a la dominate monster is a blue effect. Charm creating strife like crown of madness or confusion are red, but what about those more "gentle" charms like charm person and friends? What about compulsion and suggestion?

Antimagic field - white protection effect or blue cancel effect?

Mordenkained Sword - ?

Etherealness - blue cloak of mist effect or white spirit creature effect

should I be worried about white getting mage armor, shield and shield of faith?

[Fable Wright]

Where to put the mending/creation/fabricate spells. MrStabby reminded me that red has a few artificer/thinker cards. Enough to go red?

Fabricate is a Blue card. Red does have some artifact manipulation, especially Goblin Welder effects; at the very least, Mending is Red, but Creation/Fabricate is at the very least blue, but could be on both.

Word of Recall is basically a "return to owner's hand" effect. Right now it's in blue because teleportation is blue, but doesn't white have that type of card too? If not, which color does?

Blue returns any permanent to its owner's hand, with a bias toward opponent's creatures. White is capable of returning its own creatures to its hands, or move them to exile temporarily to save them. White seems more in line with Word of Recall to me.

I'm still struggling with charms effects being red or blue. It seems to me that straight domination a la dominate monster is a blue effect. Charm creating strife like crown of madness or confusion are red, but what about those more "gentle" charms like charm person and friends? What about compulsion and suggestion?

Compulsion can stay Blue as an Alluring Siren effect. Suggestion is probably mono-Red, but I would make Charm Person and Friends both Red and Blue, as they exist in a definite grey area.

Antimagic field - white protection effect or blue cancel effect?

I would call it a Soratami effect, which is very Blue.

Mordenkained Sword - ?

Enchanted creature gets +1/+0 and First Strike. You tell me which color you think it should be.

Etherealness - blue cloak of mist effect or white spirit creature effect

Blue unblockability, I'd think.

should I be worried about white getting mage armor, shield and shield of faith?

No, that's basically White's schtick. See: Ethereal Armor.

[Laurefindel]

Thank you guys, you've been super helpful

here's my latest (and probably final) list

If someone is interested, I can share the excel spreadsheet that I used to sort the spells

'findel

[Fable Wright]

Thank you guys, you've been super helpful

here's my latest (and probably final) list

If someone is interested, I can share the excel spreadsheet that I used to sort the spells

'findel

No problem. Last couple of changes I'd recommend:

Heroes feast might be something to move to green. They have a fair number of feeding spells. Black might have more, but it isn't known for healing magic.

Green also has literally two 8th level spells. They could really use some more, and both Sympathy and Tsunami fit the bill, and are taken from the two schools with the most spells. It's also light on 7th level spells, and Conjure Celestial would give it the ability to summon a unicorn and a magic snake (and nothing else, natch), which would fit and not bleed too much flavor.

Primordial Ward should probably be in Green, both because Green has the monopoly on the old days, and because it does fit with Green's protection agenda.

I'd personally remove Speak with Dead from White's list, as they don't particularly have much graveyard interaction; Green is the one who learns secrets from the dead (gets spells back), Black interrogates zombies, but White has pretty much zero effects outside of resurrections that deal with the graveyard at all. They're much more interested in expunging the past than learning from it.

Black is light on second level spells compared to any other list; might they share Hold Person, Rope Trick, and perhaps Suggestion with the other lists?

Earthbind's anti-flier ability is exceedingly Green, moreso than being Red, but it's a minor shift.

Finally, Wall of Force's sphere mode and Forcecage in general are essentially scaled up versions of Otiluke's Resilient Sphere. I'd shift it from Blue to White for consistency purposes at the very least, even disregarding the fact that Blue has never been able to exile creatures, never will be able to exile creatures, and its biggest weakness as a school is dealing with creatures already on the battlefield (ie, creatures in combat that Blue cannot misdirect or avoid). Taking away that weakness seems strange.

(Still not letting go of Radiant damage not being red despite holy fire being their schtick, but you've made it clear that you're not budging on that despite White's large list.)

[Laurefindel]

you raise many good points

I've got to admit your knowledge of cards is impressive. I am grateful you invested yourself in this thread!

[Fable Wright]

you raise many good points

I've got to admit your knowledge of cards is impressive. I am grateful you invested yourself in this thread!

No problem. Hope you find something to do with the colored lists now that you have them!