FATE Accelerated Edition and Superheroes

[theonesin]

A while back I came here asking for ideas for rules-like RPG systems that I could run, and I found that I really like how FATE Accelerated Edition looks.

Now, I'm considering running a superhero-related campaign. I come from playing a lot of DnD 3.5/4e and other systems where you have explicit spells or power lists that tell you what you can and can't do with something. FAE doesn't really have that, so I'm wondering how well, if at all, the system can handle the superhero genre.

Does it work out well? Any tips on how to handle powers in this system? Thanks in advance.

[SuchADiceGuy]

I actually have played a superhero game with Fate Accelerated. We used the expansion called Venture City, which is a sourcebook that Evil Hat created. It's actually a pretty cool setting--basically, corporations "create" superheroes and use them as mascots in order to promote their brand.

However, I would not recommend Fate Accelerated for superheroes, or any edition of Fate, for that matter. We were really ****ty superheroes in that game--we could get easily overpowered by common street thugs--you know, the guys that superheroes normally beat? But that's just the way the system works--everyone seems to get, at most, +3 in one skill.

There's basically no way for the system to allow you to demonstrate that your character has superpowers. For instance, if you wanted your PC to have superhuman durability, the most you could do to prevent you taking damage from a bullet is to have an aspect that reads "superhuman durability," and invoke it. The system is just so... streamlined that it doesn't really work for a superhero game.

Personally, for a superhero game, I'd pick up either GURPS or Mutants and Masterminds. You can very easily customize your powers in these systems, and give you more tangible benefits.

[kyoryu]

However, I would not recommend Fate Accelerated for superheroes, or any edition of Fate, for that matter. We were really ****ty superheroes in that game--we could get easily overpowered by common street thugs--you know, the guys that superheroes normally beat? But that's just the way the system works--everyone seems to get, at most, +3 in one skill.

Your GM screwed up. If your superheroes are really "super", then common street thugs should have a +0, or a +1 peak skill at most, and probably no team-up bonus.

[goto124]

Mutants and Masterminds is explicitly a system for superheros, isn't it?

[Takewo]

Your GM screwed up. If your superheroes are really "super", then common street thugs should have a +0, or a +1 peak skill at most, and probably no team-up bonus.

Yup, and you can always make the PCs' stunts cooler, if needs be.

[Anonymouswizard]

I actually have played a superhero game with Fate Accelerated. We used the expansion called Venture City, which is a sourcebook that Evil Hat created. It's actually a pretty cool setting--basically, corporations "create" superheroes and use them as mascots in order to promote their brand.

Venture City is really intended for Fate Core, and it shows in the powers in the book (although Venture City Stories didn't include those, it was still slanted).

However, I would not recommend Fate Accelerated for superheroes, or any edition of Fate, for that matter. We were really ****ty superheroes in that game--we could get easily overpowered by common street thugs--you know, the guys that superheroes normally beat? But that's just the way the system works--everyone seems to get, at most, +3 in one skill.

Okay, in FAE your highest Approach is +3, but in Fate Core, which users a skill list (technically defined by the GM and players) and suggests giving players a peak skill of Great (+4) for most games, and looking in the Fate System Toolkit (a brilliant book I recommend all Fate players have a look it) it recommends that Superheroes start with a Peak skill of Fantastic (+6). Now, I'm fairly certain that you are supposed to build with a Great skill pyramid in Venture City.

However, to use your example, a random street thug with no superpowers should have a Fight skill of Average (+1) or Fair (+2). Your bulk-standard brick has, going by VC, has +2 to Fight rolls and probably a Good (+3) or better Fight skill. So on average your brick should be taking down at least three thugs per round, and because of your toughness those thugs need a five shift hit to even hurt you. For other character types in Venture City, someone with super hot flames (Flamer, but we've spent an additional 3 Stunts on Master Energy Blast) has a minimum effective skill of Fantastic (+6) in Shoot when using his power, and can just incinerate those pesky thugs. Not everybody will be good at taking out thugs, looking through the example powersets in VC the Ghost, Chameleon, Doppelganger, Formless, Insect, Metalhead, and Oracle have no powers that directly increase their combat effectiveness, but in a mixed group that shouldn't matter.

There's basically no way for the system to allow you to demonstrate that your character has superpowers. For instance, if you wanted your PC to have superhuman durability, the most you could do to prevent you taking damage from a bullet is to have an aspect that reads "superhuman durability," and invoke it. The system is just so... streamlined that it doesn't really work for a superhero game.

Have you actually read Venture City? Super Toughness gives Armour:2, which reduces all hits by 2 shifts, and you can pay additional stunts for another +2 to the point that, at Armour:6, those ordinary street thugs probably can't hurt you.

Personally, for a superhero game, I'd pick up either GURPS or Mutants and Masterminds. You can very easily customize your powers in these systems, and give you more tangible benefits.

Yep, they give just as tangible benefits as those in Venture City do, and VC is much more customisable. I think your GM never actually read the book, but Fate works just as well for Superheroes as Mutants and Masterminds does, although you have to do some tweaking (which you have to do for most Fate games anyway). Standard Fate characters are more Conan or James Bond than Superman, you're good, but not to insane levels.

EDIT: yeah, teaming up bonuses can be a pain, which is why you shouldn't use them for superheroes. I mean, six mooks easily get to Fantastic (+6) Fight, although you should almost never use 6 mooks per PC in Fate (2-3 is about right).

[kyoryu]

...stuff...

I totally agree with your post. Just wanted to point out one thing...

it recommends that Superheroes start with a Peak skill of Fantastic (+6). Now, I'm fairly certain that you are supposed to build with a Great skill pyramid in Venture City.

Peak skill doesn't actually matter, as "+4" doesn't mean anything concrete, the way it does in GURPS. What matters is the difference between the PC peak and their opponents.

So in a game in the style of Kick-Ass (normal people putting on tights and getting beat up), a street thug *might* have a Fight of +4. Against a 'typical' superhero, they'd have a +1, or maybe a +2 at most. Against Superman? +0.

https://plus.google.com/+RobertHanz/posts/cG9sqA8djgM

[Anonymouswizard]

I totally agree with your post. Just wanted to point out one thing...



Peak skill doesn't actually matter, as "+4" doesn't mean anything concrete, the way it does in GURPS. What matters is the difference between the PC peak and their opponents.

So in a game in the style of Kick-Ass (normal people putting on tights and getting beat up), a street thug *might* have a Fight of +4. Against a 'typical' superhero, they'd have a +1, or maybe a +2 at most. Against Superman? +0.

https://plus.google.com/+RobertHanz/posts/cG9sqA8djgM

Eh, peak skill does mean something, just not in the obvious way. It actually means a lot for how your advancement works, as using the default skill list it's not really feasible to push a skill past Fantastic without a lot of work.

However, what skills an NPC has depends on their narrative impact. A street thug in a superhero game? These are the mooks who serve the important villains, so they'd have a rating of Average (+1) or Fair (+2) in Fight, while the gang leader might have Fight at Good (+3), depending on the skill spread of the PCs. In a game in the style of Kick-Ass the thugs probably have at least Fair (+2) Fight, but the PCs probably are only beginning with a peak skill of Good (+3) unless they are supposed to be particularly talented. In a game where the PCs are literally gods (which is the basis for an interesting published Fate setting) the thugs probably have a Terrible (-2) at Fight.

Also, I was running off the default Fate Core assumptions (where +5 is aroundish Olympic athlete) because that's sort of what Venture City uses (where superpowers are added 'on top of' existing skills).

I just checked my electronic copy of Fate Accelerated and superpowers are easy in it anyway. 'Because I am X I get +2 when I Y Z.' For example, 'because I am super strong I get +2 when trying to Forcefully overcome a inanimate object'.

As a side note, I agree with that Google+ post you linked to, but the point was more about how Fate can model superheroes alright without changing what skills mean.

(As a final thing, I think many GMs do forget the 'skills represent narrative power' thing, and set NPCs Approaches/Skills to what they would 'realistically' have, which is the cause of stuff like 'Fate can't do superheroes'. I blame the adjective ladder making people think it's named after normal people rather than average PCs for the game.)

[Prime32]

Now, I'm considering running a superhero-related campaign. I come from playing a lot of DnD 3.5/4e and other systems where you have explicit spells or power lists that tell you what you can and can't do with something. FAE doesn't really have that, so I'm wondering how well, if at all, the system can handle the superhero genre.

Running FATE requires you to have a very clear idea of the setting and tone of game you're looking for, and it's recommended you look through the toolkit to customize the system to the campaign. If you can grok it though, it can handle just about anything.
It isn't focused on tactical combat like D&D-style systems are, but it's easier to keep things varied - if the PCs suddenly need to negotiate a treaty, or command an army, or win a game of poker against a soul-stealing psychic, then they'll usually be able to apply their existing abilities to the situation by interpreting them in new ways.

[SuchADiceGuy]

Venture City is really intended for Fate Core, and it shows in the powers in the book (although Venture City Stories didn't include those, it was still slanted).

Okay, in FAE your highest Approach is +3, but in Fate Core, which users a skill list (technically defined by the GM and players) and suggests giving players a peak skill of Great (+4) for most games, and looking in the Fate System Toolkit (a brilliant book I recommend all Fate players have a look it) it recommends that Superheroes start with a Peak skill of Fantastic (+6). Now, I'm fairly certain that you are supposed to build with a Great skill pyramid in Venture City.

However, to use your example, a random street thug with no superpowers should have a Fight skill of Average (+1) or Fair (+2). Your bulk-standard brick has, going by VC, has +2 to Fight rolls and probably a Good (+3) or better Fight skill. So on average your brick should be taking down at least three thugs per round, and because of your toughness those thugs need a five shift hit to even hurt you. For other character types in Venture City, someone with super hot flames (Flamer, but we've spent an additional 3 Stunts on Master Energy Blast) has a minimum effective skill of Fantastic (+6) in Shoot when using his power, and can just incinerate those pesky thugs. Not everybody will be good at taking out thugs, looking through the example powersets in VC the Ghost, Chameleon, Doppelganger, Formless, Insect, Metalhead, and Oracle have no powers that directly increase their combat effectiveness, but in a mixed group that shouldn't matter.

Is that a fact? I guess my GM was doing Fate wrong, in that case. In the game I was in heroes' highest skill was definitely +3, and as I recall the mooks' highest skill was +2. There was one supervillain that we fought, whose highest score was +6. We couldn't lay a finger on that guy. Also, while we were playing Fate Accelerated (we switched systems midgame) we couldn't attack more than one mook at a time.

Have you actually read Venture City? Super Toughness gives Armour:2, which reduces all hits by 2 shifts, and you can pay additional stunts for another +2 to the point that, at Armour:6, those ordinary street thugs probably can't hurt you.

No, I never read it. Since it was a sourcebook, I assumed it was GM-only. Is Super Toughness an Aspect or Stunt then? In any case, my GM did not inform me that there were powers listed in the book that gave tangible effects. He just said something like, "for your powers, just use one of your Aspects to describe it, and you can invoke when appropriate."

Wow, I guess I was wrong all this time about Fate. Sorry everyone. I may pick up Venture City later to see what it's like--if it's as customizable as you say, then I think I'll really like it.

[Anonymouswizard]

Is that a fact? I guess my GM was doing Fate wrong, in that case. In the game I was in heroes' highest skill was definitely +3, and as I recall the mooks' highest skill was +2. There was one supervillain that we fought, whose highest score was +6. We couldn't lay a finger on that guy. Also, while we were playing Fate Accelerated (we switched systems midgame) we couldn't attack more than one mook at a time.

As I said, in FAE your highest Approach is 3, this is actually relatively balanced compared to Fate Core, as approaches are broad compared to skills. Venture City also lets you effectively bump that up a bit more.

I'm not sure if FAE explains it, but when fighting nameless NPCs (essentially mooks) it takes a number of hits equal to their peak skill to take them out. Now, for ease of GMing nameless NPCs all attacking a single target form into a 'mob' which makes one roll (effective skill equal to the highest in the mob +1 for each additional member), and when attacking a mob you carry shifts over to the next guy when you defeat someone. For example:

Awesomeman, with Great (+4) Fight the power of enhanced Strength and Toughness is fighting a group of 6 thugs with Fair (+2) Fight. For some reason or another the thugs go first, and roll a +6 on their Attack, while Awesomeman gets a +5 on his defence. Now normally the attack would deal a one shift hit, but Awesomeman took Super Toughness, giving him Armour:2, which reduces all incoming attacks by two shifts and so takes no damage. Next Awesomeman attacks, and as he took the Natural Weapon power gets to add +2 to his attack roll. He manages to roll a +8 for his Attack, while the thugs only get a +4 on their defence. Awesomeman has scored a four shift hit, enough to take out two thugs this exchange!

At least that's how it works in Fate Core.

No, I never read it. Since it was a sourcebook, I assumed it was GM-only. Is Super Toughness an Aspect or Stunt then? In any case, my GM did not inform me that there were powers listed in the book that gave tangible effects. He just said something like, "for your powers, just use one of your Aspects to describe it, and you can invoke when appropriate."

Super Toughness is an Extra, an additional thing your character has outside the normal stuff, but in practice powers act like slightly stronger Stunt trees. There are actually two versions of Venture City, Venture City stories included no powers but had rules to make your own (it was also PWYW, but it's gone now), while Venture City includes an updated version of the 'make your own' rules plus a selection of pre-made powers that you can piece together.

Wow, I guess I was wrong all this time about Fate. Sorry everyone. I may pick up Venture City later to see what it's like--if it's as customizable as you say, then I think I'll really like it.

Bare in mind that Venture City Stories is no longer available, so you can't have a free look at it before putting own money.

[kyoryu]

Eh, peak skill does mean something, just not in the obvious way. It actually means a lot for how your advancement works, as using the default skill list it's not really feasible to push a skill past Fantastic without a lot of work.

Right. Peak skill is really "this is how good the best PC is." What that means is campaign-dependent.

However, what skills an NPC has depends on their narrative impact.

Absolutely.

Also, I was running off the default Fate Core assumptions (where +5 is aroundish Olympic athlete) because that's sort of what Venture City uses (where superpowers are added 'on top of' existing skills).

Well, I kinda disagree. The peak skill is really just "the best a starting PC can be". That's not the same across various campaigns. There really is no objective standard of what it means. That's kinda the point of the article.

I just checked my electronic copy of Fate Accelerated and superpowers are easy in it anyway. 'Because I am X I get +2 when I Y Z.' For example, 'because I am super strong I get +2 when trying to Forcefully overcome a inanimate object'.

Even easier. "I'm an Unstable Fire Projector, so I can shoot fireballs!"

As a side note, I agree with that Google+ post you linked to, but the point was more about how Fate can model superheroes alright without changing what skills mean.

Thanks! When I wrote it, the point was really "skills are only relative anyway, so you don't actually have to change them."

(As a final thing, I think many GMs do forget the 'skills represent narrative power' thing, and set NPCs Approaches/Skills to what they would 'realistically' have, which is the cause of stuff like 'Fate can't do superheroes'. I blame the adjective ladder making people think it's named after normal people rather than average PCs for the game.)

True dat. Also, the skill doesn't care *how* you have that level of ability. The master warrior, and the guy who is absolutely terrible at fighting but just randomly happens to always hit everything both are modeled with Fight +4.

[kyoryu]

There was one supervillain that we fought, whose highest score was +6. We couldn't lay a finger on that guy.

Create Advantage is your friend.

[Anonymouswizard]

Right. Peak skill is really "this is how good the best PC is." What that means is campaign-dependent.

Yep. Although as I said, the peak skill and the size of the skill list decides how hard it is to raise your highest skill. With the default skill list Starting at Fantastic means it's going to be lots of milestones before you have a column to support raising a skill to +7, if you can get there at all.

Well, I kinda disagree. The peak skill is really just "the best a starting PC can be". That's not the same across various campaigns. There really is no objective standard of what it means. That's kinda the point of the article.

Default Fate assumes a kind of pulpy setting, which means that characters will start with their best at about peak human (although this is arguable). The thing I use is 'if PCs are normal humans Good is good for a normal human, if they are superheroes Good is good for a superhero'. However, when talking about Fate it is useful to have a sort of baseline for what skills mean, even if you should change it for your game (for example, in my Steampunk setting good Fight means 'you can fence good', whereas in a fantasy setting I'm making the same rating assumes you are leaping around and making ki attacks).

Even easier. "I'm an Unstable Fire Projector, so I can shoot fireballs!"

Yep, but I was trying to give an example with a static mechanical effect (so I wrote up Super Strength as a Stunt). I don't actually like FAE for several reasons, but lack of genres is not one of them

Thanks! When I wrote it, the point was really "skills are only relative anyway, so you don't actually have to change them."

Oh, yeah, completely true. Although I don't really change how good a skill is between my settings that much, as they are all fairly low powered (although how characters express their power is different) and I want to bring in the possibility of world-hoppers in the multiverse at some point. However I understand that Spiderman's Good does not have to be the same thing as Superman's Good, I just forget it as I don't use it as much.

True dat. Also, the skill doesn't care *how* you have that level of ability. The master warrior, and the guy who is absolutely terrible at fighting but just randomly happens to always hit everything both are modeled with Fight +4.

Yep, although the latter would annoy me for personal reasons. But it's the difference between having Great (+4) Resources due to having lots of wealth, and having the same rank because you can get your hands on a lot of stuff.

[theonesin]

Well, my topic seems to have taken a slight tangent. Sorting out the FATE Core comments, it seems FAE can do superheroes then? I'm still not sure about how to actually handle the powers though.

[kyoryu]

Well, my topic seems to have taken a slight tangent. Sorting out the FATE Core comments, it seems FAE can do superheroes then? I'm still not sure about how to actually handle the powers though.

Aspects and stunts.

First question: "Can I do x?" If you have an appropriate aspect, you can. Superheroes usually have core powers, and then apply them in different ways. So if you've got "Man of Fire" as an aspect, that indicates that you're someone that can do fiery stuff, like shoot fireballs. Resolve that as an attack, with an appropriate approach.

Secondly, if you have a stunt, that allows you have to have "signature" moves or the like - things that you're better at.

[Knaight]

Well, my topic seems to have taken a slight tangent. Sorting out the FATE Core comments, it seems FAE can do superheroes then? I'm still not sure about how to actually handle the powers though.

Aspects and stunts cover a lot of it, but Fate has had non-stunt powers before, so you can take a look at the various places those crop up. The Dresden Files game has a fair amount of them, and it sounds like Venture City has a stunt list that gives powers, although I'm really not familiar with it and can't say with any certainty.

[Anonymouswizard]

Well, my topic seems to have taken a slight tangent. Sorting out the FATE Core comments, it seems FAE can do superheroes then? I'm still not sure about how to actually handle the powers though.

Aspects and stunts. Aspects for your basic power and Stunts to justify making them better. I'd recommend starting with 6 free Stunts instead of 3 and letting them stack, although you don't have to. Extras if you want to get snazzy and start importing them from other games, Venture City essentially uses Stunt Trees, while I believe The Dresden Files gives powers that cost Refresh and a much higher starting amount (although you probably won't begin as high as in Spirit of the Century).

Aspects and stunts cover a lot of it, but Fate has had non-stunt powers before, so you can take a look at the various places those crop up. The Dresden Files game has a fair amount of them, and it sounds like Venture City has a stunt list that gives powers, although I'm really not familiar with it and can't say with any certainty.

Venture City is weird. Each Power costs one Stunt and either makes you better or lets you do something, and then has a Stunt tree to improve it. You build your powerset by selecting different base powers and Stunts. It's rather neat, although it's not elegant.

[theonesin]

Aspects and stunts. Aspects for your basic power and Stunts to justify making them better. I'd recommend starting with 6 free Stunts instead of 3 and letting them stack, although you don't have to. Extras if you want to get snazzy and start importing them from other games, Venture City essentially uses Stunt Trees, while I believe The Dresden Files gives powers that cost Refresh and a much higher starting amount (although you probably won't begin as high as in Spirit of the Century).

Venture City is weird. Each Power costs one Stunt and either makes you better or lets you do something, and then has a Stunt tree to improve it. You build your powerset by selecting different base powers and Stunts. It's rather neat, although it's not elegant.

Ok, that makes a lot more sense. Though, what exactly do you mean by letting stunts stack? I'm still very new to the FAE system.