Opinions On Gender And Sexual Disiverity In TRPGs

[GMProtagonist]

I'd just like to start some banter on this subject. What are your thoughts on introducing diverse characters into your games? Have you ever played a trans PC or met an NPC who was gay? As a beginning GM and member of the LGBT+ community , I'd love to hear other's experiences with the topic of diversity in TRPGs.

[golentan]

Yeah. I include/play as gender and sexual minorities all the time. Helps that I like Exalted, to some extent. LGBT folks abound in the official fluff, and t here are socially acceptable norms around being trans or gay for example in many of the cultures of the setting.

I got weirded out though at one point playing traveller because a scientist referred to "his husband" and people thought it was a Borderlands reference. No, it was a reference to the fact he has a husband.

[EternalMelon]

My Human-mech-suit wearing Intelligent cat ended up in a casual relationship with the shapeshifting genderfluid crossdressing elf NPC. (5E)
No one really batted an eye. In fact, they congratulated me on bagging one of the "Hottest Dates" in the game world. So my group at least is delightfully open.

[golentan]

My Human-mech-suit wearing Intelligent cat ended up in a casual relationship with the shapeshifting genderfluid crossdressing elf NPC. (5E)
No one really batted an eye. In fact, they congratulated me on bagging one of the "Hottest Dates" in the game world. So my group at least is delightfully open.

Wait-wait-wait...

Mech suit? In 5e?

[TechnOkami]

Wait-wait-wait...

Mech suit? In 5e?

Homebrew. That is all.

On the topic at hand: I am thoroughly indifferent. Do what'chu wanna do. As long as it's not actively harming or belittling I could really care less.

Also, @ Melon: that Elf must have gotten so much pu$$y. Just sayin'.

[EternalMelon]

Wait-wait-wait...

Mech suit? In 5e?

More like a puppet I could operate from the inside just so that I could dance with my Hot Date in a pretty dress (syntax intentionally left ambiguous). Created using a fantastic disguise check and help from my mechanic crystal golem mind slave friend.


Ninja Techn0!

Homebrew. That is all.

Yeah, DM was fine with it especially 'cause it was all fluff supported by mechanics.

On the topic at hand: I am thoroughly indifferent. Do what'chu wanna do. As long as it's not actively harming or belittling I could really care less.

Also, In case my anecdote didn't get my opinion across I agree with Techn0.

Also, @ Melon: that Elf must have gotten so much pu$$y. Just sayin'.

Probably
EDIT: I should mention sex itself never shows up our games, just dating.

[druid91]

I have not done, nor seen, either of those things. Though I don't see a reason why they shouldn't be done. It's just that it's very rare for my gaming group to bring these things* up as anything but a joke.

And mostly, I stick to evil plotting, murdering of potentially important NPC's by accident, and raising undead legions to do my bidding. Also headbutting Darkmantles into cave walls.

*I should point out, due to potential for misunderstanding, I meant sex in general. We're almost to a man, a table of murderhobos and murderhobos with a few ranks in diplomacy respectively. We kill things, and then occasionally make a stupid crude joke about brothels. And then we kill things. Again. Sometimes the same things as the first time.

[Telonius]

For the past few years my group hasn't gotten too far into who's getting in bed with whom (mainly because my six-year-old daughter is in the room). But one of the players in the previous campaign played a pretty promiscuously bi character. She eventually got tired of playing that, retired the character, and made a Monk/Earthbender.

It's probably going to be touched on at least a bit in the campaign I'm playing now. My wife and I are cross-playing; female Cleric of Olidammara for me, male Sorcerer for her. (After one session, I'm pretty sure the whole table think they're "together" in-game, but they're just close friends).

[Scarlet Knight]

Elves.

All male elves are androgenous.

All females elves are pansexual.

I'm pretty sure it's in the rules since the blue box.

[RyumaruMG]

What are your thoughts on introducing diverse characters into your games?

I'll keep it simple: we need more. Not just PCs, but canon NPCs. Representation matters.

[DJ Yung Crunk]

Everyone at the table of the campaign I'm in now is bisexual so there's a "everyone is bi" policy on the characters and NPCs.

[Cizak]

I made a decision some time ago that I would never roleplay a straight white cis man ever again. I already am that every day of my life, and there are so many other options available. Now, I haven't gotten much chance to actual roleplay since I made that decision, but I played an agender character in an apocalypse RPG, using my language's new gender neutral pronoun.

[Dire Moose]

The main character I've been playing in Pathfinder Society is an elven trans woman, though nobody in the gaming groups knows that.

I really don't know how to make it relevant to anything in-game though, and she wouldn't really want to discuss it in-character, so I'm kind of wondering what to do with that aspect of her. I do want to at least mention it at some point, but again, not sure what would prompt her to bring it up.

[golentan]

The main character I've been playing in Pathfinder Society is an elven trans woman, though nobody in the gaming groups knows that.

I really don't know how to make it relevant to anything in-game though, and she wouldn't really want to discuss it in-character, so I'm kind of wondering what to do with that aspect of her.

Pursue vigorously a belt of gender change or similar magic item, then come back apparently no different but happier?

[BananaPhone]

I'm against diversity for the sake of diversity. Forcing modern, fashionable politics into my entertainment is not something I am in favor of, particularly in things like medieval settings where such political leanings are vastly out of sync with what should be.

If people want to write those type of characters and actually make them characters that are fleshed out rather than a token that they use to virtue signal, then I'm more inclined towards it if it fits the setting. There are also other circumstances where such things could make for enjoyable stories, like an alchemist making a potion of love that instead turns them into a woman or something. Or something less extreme like Ser Loras from Game of Thrones, a homosexual character whose sexuality is not just a part of his character but is important to his plot and character arc because it clashes with those around him, as is extremely fitting for such a setting. To me that is far more compelling than simply "this is team diversity here to save the day".

But diversity for the sake of diversity? No. It's creative poison.

[Dire Moose]

Pursue vigorously a belt of gender change or similar magic item, then come back apparently no different but happier?

As mentioned in the document I linked, she'd already transitioned via magic prior to becoming an adventurer.

[golentan]

As mentioned in the document I linked, she'd already transitioned via magic prior to becoming an adventurer.

Didn't read the full document. Well then, the only way it would come up is if she runs into someone from her past, neh? I once had a character who was trans and it literally never came up because why would it?

[BladeofObliviom]

I managed to play a transgender character by accident once. I'd written Female in pen on the sheet, but the actual description I gave to the other PCs and GM was gender-neutral and so they assumed I was playing a guy, probably because I was a guy and didn't inform them otherwise. Moreover, the GM thought I'd written the description based on "a dude version of his girlfriend", and I decided that maybe I shouldn't correct him.

But it was written in pen on the sheet, even if no one else saw what I could.




Outside of that story, I play asexual characters with some regularity; sexuality is strange to me and it takes extra effort to roleplay a sexual character of any kind.

[goto124]

Elves.

All male elves are androgenous.

All females elves are pansexual.

I'm pretty sure it's in the rules since the blue box.

I thought all elves are androgynous and pansexual...

[Siosilvar]

I'm against diversity for the sake of diversity. Forcing modern, fashionable politics into my entertainment is not something I am in favor of, particularly in things like medieval settings where such political leanings are vastly out of sync with what should be.

If people want to write those type of characters and actually make them characters that are fleshed out rather than a token that they use to virtue signal, then I'm more inclined towards it if it fits the setting. There are also other circumstances where such things could make for enjoyable stories, like an alchemist making a potion of love that instead turns them into a woman or something. Or something less extreme like Ser Loras from Game of Thrones, a homosexual character whose sexuality is not just a part of his character but is important to his plot and character arc because it clashes with those around him, as is extremely fitting for such a setting. To me that is far more compelling than simply "this is team diversity here to save the day".

But diversity for the sake of diversity? No. It's creative poison.

lol

...honestly, that's all I have to say there. LGBT people exist. And have always existed. Khnumhotep, Julie d'Aubigny, Chevalier d'Eon, arguably Shakespeare. Portraying the actual diversity of human life is not a political statement, or if it is, then that statement is "this shouldn't be a political statement".

Is it far more interesting when it actually shapes how the character interacts with the outside world? Yes. The son of a noble betrothed to another noble's daughter but who really loves the male poet down the row (supposedly secretly, but it's an open secret) is more interesting than "hey guys, I'm gay". But it's a double standard if you insist that diversity has to tie into the plot and the "norm" doesn't. Why should every character fit the default unless it's plot-relevant? History absolutely doesn't fit that mold, and it's even less fitting in an already-ahistorical fantasy setting.

[EternalMelon]

-snip-

In general media its just so easy to include diversity in acceptable situations its kinda baffling.
But for tabletop I'm not going to care if people don't want to play "diverse" characters. Play what you want ect.

[...]trans [...] literally never came up because why would it?

Ah, the joys of fantasy. If only.

I thought all elves are androgynous and pansexual...

The solution is for Elves to be Pangendered and Asexual

[golentan]

Ah, the joys of fantasy. If only.

Hey, if I'm playing in a world with magic that solves my problems, I'm gonna use it to solve my problems.

When I'm playing a demonically empowered mini-titan capable of laying waste to cities with a word and creating species of demon from thin air to do her bidding, she gets whatever pronouns she wants and the physical changes of transition are WAY less important than the fact she can turn into a living sandstorm and go to war with a walking mountain.

Again: I really enjoy exalted.

[BananaPhone]

lol

...honestly, that's all I have to say there. LGBT people exist.

I know I exist.

And have always existed. Khnumhotep, Julie d'Aubigny, Chevalier d'Eon, arguably Shakespeare. Portraying the actual diversity of human life is not a political statement, or if it is, then that statement is "this shouldn't be a political statement".

No one says we don't exist.

Is it far more interesting when it actually shapes how the character interacts with the outside world? Yes. The son of a noble betrothed to another noble's daughter but who really loves the male poet down the row (supposedly secretly, but it's an open secret) is more interesting than "hey guys, I'm gay". But it's a double standard if you insist that diversity has to tie into the plot and the "norm" doesn't. Why should every character fit the default unless it's plot-relevant? History absolutely doesn't fit that mold, and it's even less fitting in an already-ahistorical fantasy setting.

Because they're the norm, by a long margin, and we're not. It's like watching a movie about the English Civil War and asking why the vast, overwhelming majority of characters are white.

In general media its just so easy to include diversity in acceptable situations its kinda baffling.
But for tabletop I'm not going to care if people don't want to play "diverse" characters. Play what you want ect.

People can come up with whatever they want in tabeltop rpg's. That's their own fun and escapism so more power to them.

[golentan]

Because they're the norm, by a long margin, and we're not. It's like watching a movie about the English Civil War and asking why the vast, overwhelming majority of characters are white.

PCs, almost by definition, are not the norm. The extent varies system to system and game to game, but PCs are overwhelmingly more likely to travel more than 20 miles from their place of birth (something fairly rare to this day), are more likely to interact with royalty or wizards or dragons or spaceships than your average subsistence farmer, are reasonably likely to be the only person in a village of 200 to know more than the pointy end of the sword goes towards the enemy when fighting (or in the case of Sci Fi, be the only people who consider combat armor and plasma rifles to be casual wear), are likely more educated than the vast majority of people they would meet in a historically accurate setting by simple virtue of literacy, and in a typical fantasy kingdom 95% humans and racially segregated towns are more than likely not even going to be majority human or even have any coherent racial makeup.

If my Lady Paladin Orc prefers other Lady Orcs, I don't see why that's significantly more implausible than a female Orc (being essentially a green-skinned human with tusks, a situation which appears in absolutely no historical context I can think of) joined a lawful good martial tradition despite a patriarchal blood-god based society and is palling around with someone whose ancestry includes demonic interbreeding who regularly transforms himself into a wolf because it's basically a sacrament to him. Seems like the alternative is to say "we're actually playing in feudal europe with no magic or strange races." And that idea doesn't sell well from what I've seen. Tabletop RPGs are fantasy, and fantasy is fantastic. By definition.

[Siosilvar]

Because they're the norm, by a long margin, and we're not. If you walked up to someone in the Byzantine Empire and announced your list of tumblr-inspired gender pronouns, said person would have no clue on earth as to what you were talking about and would probably think you were possessed by the devil.

It's like watching a movie about the English Civil War and asking why the vast, overwhelming majority of characters are white.

You didn't answer the question. So I'm going to rephrase it:

Why does being a minority mean we have to justify our inclusion?

It's like watching a movie about the English Civil War and asking why there's not a single frame with a black person visible, when they made up ~3% of the population at the time in varying social classes. Surely one of the background actors should have been black. It's like watching a generic action movie set in the US and asking why there's not a single frame with a black person visible, when they make up ~13% of the population right now. More in urban areas where these things tend to be set.

And that holds doubly or trebly true in the fantastically egalitarian societies that make up the faux-medieval settings for most RPGs.

[BananaPhone]

Spoiler: Shortened

Show

PCs, almost by definition, are not the norm. The extent varies system to system and game to game, but PCs are overwhelmingly more likely to travel more than 20 miles from their place of birth (something fairly rare to this day), are more likely to interact with royalty or wizards or dragons or spaceships than your average subsistence farmer, are reasonably likely to be the only person in a village of 200 to know more than the pointy end of the sword goes towards the enemy when fighting (or in the case of Sci Fi, be the only people who consider combat armor and plasma rifles to be casual wear), are likely more educated than the vast majority of people they would meet in a historically accurate setting by simple virtue of literacy, and in a typical fantasy kingdom 95% humans and racially segregated towns are more than likely not even going to be majority human or even have any coherent racial makeup.

If my Lady Paladin Orc prefers other Lady Orcs, I don't see why that's significantly more implausible than a female Orc (being essentially a green-skinned human with tusks, a situation which appears in absolutely no historical context I can think of) joined a lawful good martial tradition despite a patriarchal blood-god based society and is palling around with someone whose ancestry includes demonic interbreeding who regularly transforms himself into a wolf because it's basically a sacrament to him. Seems like the alternative is to say "we're actually playing in feudal europe with no magic or strange races." And that idea doesn't sell well from what I've seen. Tabletop RPGs are fantasy, and fantasy is fantastic. By definition.

I think a few people are missing the point of what my statement was. I've addressed the specifics of players in their group and with their GM. If they want to make their world be one where everyone is a hermaphrodite and the standard human skin color is blue, then that is their prerogative. Go on and have fun.

My statement, however, is about this spilling over into the content published by the gaming companies and the media in general. In this broader and less-personalised arena, my argument is for authenticity, genuity, story telling and character over the tokenism and virtue signalling for the politics of the times. One of these wings is healthy, the other is not.

[Liquor Box]

I'm against diversity for the sake of diversity. Forcing modern, fashionable politics into my entertainment is not something I am in favor of, particularly in things like medieval settings where such political leanings are vastly out of sync with what should be.

If people want to write those type of characters and actually make them characters that are fleshed out rather than a token that they use to virtue signal, then I'm more inclined towards it if it fits the setting. There are also other circumstances where such things could make for enjoyable stories, like an alchemist making a potion of love that instead turns them into a woman or something. Or something less extreme like Ser Loras from Game of Thrones, a homosexual character whose sexuality is not just a part of his character but is important to his plot and character arc because it clashes with those around him, as is extremely fitting for such a setting. To me that is far more compelling than simply "this is team diversity here to save the day".

But diversity for the sake of diversity? No. It's creative poison.

Good post.

In my experience the truth is that most characters (PC or NPC) don't actually have a defined sexuality. PC X is generally described by reference to his gender, stats, class, level, general appearance and general characteristics - or she he will usually not be footnoted as being straight (or otherwise) - and in most games that wont come up in roleplay. Even more so with respect to NPCs - in the majority of cases the buxom barmaid or overweight and over important mayor will not give any indication as to their sexual preference.

Even more true as far as transgendered characters go. As Dire Moose pointed out, whether a character was born the gender they now are, or was magically transitioned is irrelevant to the game, and in the cases of the overwhelming majority of characters will not be a factor (even in the mind of the character's creator.

Of course, people should feel free to create homosexual of trans characters if they want. It is then up to them whether they try to project that aspect of their character into the game or not.

As to published content, my above point becomes even more true. Is Lidda or ALhandra lesbian? Ir Krusk the barbarian trans? Who knows - none of these things are defined either way.

[Siosilvar]

I think a few people are missing the point of what my statement was. I've addressed the specifics of players in their group and with their GM. If they want to make their world be one where everyone is a hermaphrodite and the standard human skin color is blue, then that is their prerogative. Go on and have fun.

My statement, however, is about this spilling over into the content published by the gaming companies and the media in general. In this broader and less-personalised arena, my argument is for authenticity, genuity, story telling and character over the tokenism and virtue signalling for the politics of the times. One of these wings is healthy, the other is not.

No, I get it, I just fundamentally disagree. Not least because there's no bright line between the two.

EDIT because at 3 am I can't get to sleep because of this:

MtG's Alesha is arguably a token trans character, since her story would like likely have worked just as well with anybody in the same position as the sole human in an orc tribe. But her story is a pretty good story regardless, and her being a trans woman adds to the worldbuilding. The two aren't mutually exclusive, and the rest of your argument (at least, as I understand it) boils down to the tautological "well-developed characters are more interesting than bags of traits", plus some rhetoric that looks very close to what I see used to exclude minority representation where it costs nothing to add.

[golentan]

I too get it, I just find that... Well, as Siosilvar has indicated, I find the line drawn between what violates suspension of disbelief in a roleplaying game and what doesn't arbitrary at best, especially when it comes to representation.

[EternalMelon]

EDIT: I agree with the above posters and don't really have anything else to say, the posts didn't exist when I started this and then got distracted. Leaving my post written cause idk.

Spoiler

Show

My statement, however, is about this spilling over into the content published by the gaming companies and the media in general. In this broader and less-personalised arena, my argument is for authenticity, genuity, story telling and character over the tokenism and virtue signalling for the politics of the times. One of these wings is healthy, the other is not.

In historical pieces: Definitely. In historical fiction: Sure*. In fantasy and fictional fiction: Straight up tokenism should be discouraged, but it takes only a few words to change a characters sexual preference (or even just a short bit of acting) to a way that includes and represents sexual minorities. Doesn't have to be a big deal.

In terms of fantasy settings, I don't see a reason to not include non-straight people* when you already have people shooting fireballs from their hands and channelling the powers of gods. Not exactly the "norm" we have either. *

EDIT: *Just Realized the Implications, woops!

*Sorry for the atrocious English.