A somewhat complex question

[enderrocksonall]

New wizards learn the idea behind area affect spells like fireball.

In the campaign I am running, the wizard just recieved the spell fireball, and was really itching to use the thing. So I threw the party at a couple of Tendriculus plants. One of them grabbed the were-tiger rogue and started grappling him. The wizard, seeing the perfect opportunity to save his budy and use his brand spankin new spell at the same time, lobs his sudden maximized fireball.

Normally a mid-level rogue is in no danger when in the midst of a fireball right? But when grappled, we decided that the whole loss of dex bonus applies to his reflex save as well.

So now we have a dilemma. The rogue was in hybrid form and got dropped to -5, which means the rogue is unconcious. But the rules state that an unconcious lycanthrope reverts to their human form on their following turn. Along with the human form comes the reduction in Con, meaning the loss of the hp boost from the transformation.

So while he would normally have 5 rounds of stabilize rolls before he had to get a heal, he now has less than one. In fact only one other party member had an action before the rogue's turn was up.

The funny part is that if he hadn't been in hybrid form, he would never have survived the blast, but if he had been in human form, he would have had those 5 rounds to try to stabilize.

So here are the questions:
1. In a grapple does the loss of a dex bonus apply to your reflex save as well as your AC?
2. If unconcious, does the transformation from hybrid to human kill the lycanthrope?
3. would a swallowed character be damaged by a fireball that struck the monster that had swallowed them?
4. If they are damaged by it, are they subject to a saving throw and evasion?

[Jasdoif]

1. In a grapple does the loss of a dex bonus apply to your reflex save as well as your AC?

No. Very few things affect your Reflex save, as mentioned in the FAQ:

Exactly when can a character make a Reflex saving throw? The saving throw section on the Player’s Handbook says Reflex saves depend on a character’s ability to dodge out of the way. Does that mean you can’t make Reflex saves if you can’t move?

A character can attempt a Reflex save anytime she is subjected to an effect that allows a Reflex save. A Reflex save usually involves some dodging, but a Reflex save does not depend completely on a character’s ability to move around. It also can depend on luck, variations in the effect that makes the save necessary in the first place, and a host of other miraculous factors that keep heroic characters in the D&D game from meeting an untimely fate.

In most cases, you make Reflex saves normally, no matter how bad your circumstances are, but a few conditions interfere with Reflex saves:

• If you’ve suffered Dexterity damage or Dexterity drain, you must use your current, lower Dexterity modifier for your Reflex saves.
• If you’re cowering, you lose your Dexterity bonus (if any). The maximum Dexterity bonus you can have while cowering is +0, and that affects your Reflex saves accordingly.
• If you’re dead, you become an object. Unattended objects can’t make saving throws.
• If you’re entangled, your effective Dexterity score drops by –4, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re exhausted, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –6, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re fatigued, your effective Strength and Dexterity scores drop by –2, and you must use your lower Dexterity modifier for Reflex saves.
• If you’re frightened or panicked, you have a –2 penalty on all saving throws, including Reflex saving throws.
• If you’re helpless, your Dexterity score is effectively 0. You still can make Reflex saves, but your Dexterity modifier is –5. You’re helpless whenever you are paralyzed, unconscious, or asleep.

2. If unconcious, does the transformation from hybrid to human kill the lycanthrope?

Where in the rules does it say that they revert form if unconscious? I don't see it....But if the transformation drops the hit points below -10 from the changing Constitution modifier, yes, you're dead.

3. would a swallowed character be damaged by a fireball that struck the monster that had swallowed them?

I would say no. The character has total cover in all directions: the body of the monster that swallowed it. There's no way for the fireball's spread to get past it to affect the swallowed character.

4. If they are damaged by it, are they subject to a saving throw and evasion?

If somehow this happened, they would indeed get a reflex save and be allowed to use evasion. Swallow Whole says the swallowed creature is considered grappled (while the creature that swallowed them is not), and grappling does not interfere with Reflex saves (see #1)

[Iku Rex]

On preview I see Jasdoif has already posted the correct answers.

I'll just add that lycanthropes have the same amount of hit points regardless of form, so even if they did revert when unconscious (which they don't) it wouldn't matter.

[enderrocksonall]

We assumed that since a slain lyco reverts that an unconcious one would do the same.

So why does a Barb gain temperary hp from raging while a lyco does not?

That doesn't make any sense. Both are as a result of an increased Con modifier.

[Jasdoif]

I'll just add that lycanthropes have the same amount of hit points regardless of form, so even if they did revert when unconscious (which they don't) it wouldn't matter.

While this is generally correct for alternate form, the lycanthrope template specifically says that you determine total hit points based on the Constitution modifier of the form in question.

Yes, I know the examples listed don't adhere to this. But text trumps table.

[Callix]

If there's a Con increase, there are additional hit points. However, the grapple does not affect the reflex saves, and a swallowed creature is protected from a fireball by line of effect unless it was fired down the swallower's throat. So the rogue is not at -5 HP anyway.

[Iku Rex]

While this is generally correct for alternate form, the lycanthrope template specifically says that you determine total hit points based on the Constitution modifier of the form in question.

Here's what the text says (MM 75):

Hit Dice and Hit Points: Same as the base creature plus those
of the base animal. To calculate total hit points, apply Constitution
modifiers according to the score the lycanthrope has in each form.
For example, a human commoner with a Constitution score of 11
as a human and a Constitution score of 15 as a wolf has 1d4 plus
2d8+4 hit points.

(You've no doubt read the SRD, which leaves out the clarifying example.)

[Jasdoif]

Hmm, now that makes sense. OK, I stand corrected.

Could they have possibly explained that (without resorting to example) any worse?

[enderrocksonall]

so this means that the minute he contracts the disease he gains hp? And the change in Con is only going to affect his skills and saves?

[banjo1985]

Yeah unfortuanately it doesn't make the best logical sense, butit's what the rules say. However if you don't like it come up with your own system, I have many complaints with how D&D works, and I make up my own ways of doing things that are more to my loking. You just have to make sure the players are clear about this when they start the campaign.

[Rad]

so this means that the minute he contracts the disease he gains hp? And the change in Con is only going to affect his skills and saves?

The minute he contracts the disease he gains a lot of stuff, including HP.

[nagora]

No. Very few things affect your Reflex save, as mentioned in the FAQ:

A great example of where the DM is right and the rules are wrong. Clearly getting a Dex bonus on a saving throw while grappled by rope-monsters is ridiculous. I would allow a saving throw, but no way would I allow a dexterity bonus in that circumstance.

[Iku Rex]

Clearly getting a Dex bonus on a saving throw while grappled by rope-monsters is ridiculous.

Why?

filler

[nagora]

Why?

filler

Because the concept of dexterity is based on: 1) the ability to make fine movements with one's hands which is not relevant here, and 2) the ability to react quickly and take evasive actions. But since the character was bound there's no possibility to do this either. So no Dex bonus, just plain luck - a straight roll. If you wanted to give the character a bonus to their saving throw then you might use Str instead in this case.

One of the many problems with 3rd Edition is how easy it is to make saves ("Normally a mid-level rogue is in no danger when in the midst of a fireball right?"); I personally would have removed saves for things like this from the game entirely since they undermine and contradict the idea of hit points. Saving throws were a carry over into D&D from wargaming but they've never really made much sense except for things like Charm or poisons.

Any rule that allows characters to casually fireball an area where another is grappled without even having to think about whether it's a bad idea is a bad rule. This is also true of high-level characters falling huge distances, for example. When the rules say something stupid should happen, the DM's job is to step in and say "Actually, no, that's silly. You've just fried your friend."

[Fenix_of_Doom]

So why does a Barb gain temperary hp from raging while a lyco does not?

That doesn't make any sense. Both are as a result of an increased Con modifier.

As far as I know the Barb doesn't gain any temp hit points* from rage and as soon as the rage ends he loses the extra hit points from the con increase.

*defined as hp that is always lost first and goes beyond you normal hp.

[nagora]

Compromise position: Roll the damage for the monster first. If the Tendriculos plant is killed, allow the full Dex bonus when rolling for the thief's (sorry, "rouge") save; otherwise no Dex bonus.

The essential issue here is that if the "rouge" is still bound in the same place after the fireball then how could Dexterity possibly have helped him escape damage from a huge (ie, bigger than most people's houses) ball of fire? If the monster is dead and he miraculously rolls out from some corner somewhere with a couple of scorced tendrils hanging from his arms then at least you have an argument that he got away before being burned (though why he wasn't damaged by the fire that killed the thing he was tied to is rather hard to see).

[Iku Rex]

But since the character was bound there's no possibility to do this either.

Since the character got an unmodified reflex save you're clearly wrong. Grappled characters are not "bound". If they were they'd be "helpless" (defined game term) and thus have Dex 0 and be unable to use evasion.

You want to change the rules based on your idea of what's really going on. What you should be doing is changing your idea of what's really going on based on the rules. It saves a lot of work.

[banjo1985]

I would disagree, when the rules don't accurately reflect what's really happening then a comprimise should be reached where a more sensible decision is reached. A grappled character in no way has the ability to dodge and weave to the extent that they would if they weren't grappled, indeed they are almost "helpless". By all menas they should have a saving throw but giving them the full bonus as if they were walking calmly down the street doesn't do much to maintain believability. Taking a -4 to dex for the role would make the save harder but would still give the rogue a better chance of avoiding a hit than another character, showing its better agility even when struggling in a grapple.

[nagora]

Since the character got an unmodified reflex save you're clearly wrong. Grappled characters are not "bound".

Grappled by tendrils seems pretty bound to me.

If they were they'd be "helpless"

Why? If I bind your hands are you helpless?

You want to change the rules based on your idea of what's really going on. What you should be doing is changing your idea of what's really going on based on the rules. It saves a lot of work.

The rules are badly written and in this case produce a counter intuitive situation where someone tied up with tendrils can use dexterity to avoid a 40 foot wide fireball without moving from where he is. That's not going to happen.

It's no work to just say "make an unmodified save", which is the correct response to the situation.

3.5th edition was written by three people (Nobody, Nobody & Mr. Ars Magica) with no real claim to authority on the subject of AD&D and the quality of the rules as written shows it. DMs should have no qualms whatsoever in overrulling them when they think something's wrong.

[Iku Rex]

I would disagree, when the rules don't accurately reflect what's really happening then a comprimise should be reached where a more sensible decision is reached.

The point was that the rules do accurately reflect what's happening. It can't be otherwise, because "what's happening" is defined by the rules.

A grappled character may not have the same ability to "dodge and weave" as a non-grappled character, so that must mean that dodging a fireball requires quick movement of a type that's not restricted by a grapple, or at least that the grappling character can use the grapple to lower damage.

(For example, you could call it a -4 penalty for restricted movement and a +4 bonus for having a big, soggy monster to shield you from the damage.)

[The Prince of Cats]

. . .

allow the full Dex bonus when rolling for the thief's (sorry, "rouge") save; otherwise no Dex bonus.

The essential issue here is that if the "rouge" is still bound

. . .

People like you make me (sic)...

[Alveanerle]

...indeed they are almost "helpless".

Umm, that would be what "pinned" is for. A regular grapple = far from helpless. Grappling = some hold is established.
Youre' grappling when youre dancing with your oppo... err partner.
You're grappling when you're holdding your opponent by the ear.
You're grappling when you're holding your opponent by the wrist.
You're grappling when he holds you by the sleeve of your cloth.

If you want a roper or whatnot to hold the character so tight so he looses his movement flexibility and reflexes - make him attampt a pin after a grapple.

[banjo1985]

[QUOTE=Iku Rex;2807409]The point was that the rules do accurately reflect what's happening. It can't be otherwise, because "what's happening" is defined by the rules. [QUOTE]

Is this the ideal way to think in terms of roleplaying? What's happening is defined by the actions of the GM and characters, the rules serve as a structure around which indefinite actions are resolved, such as whether you hit something or how likely you are to dodge an attack. The rules aren't there to restrict, they're a structure, and a pretty loose one at that.

As for being protected by the monsters tendrils, well it's a fireball, so now they're superhot tendrils clutching at the character, thus adding to the pain at least as much as the protection they give.

edit - oops quote didn't work, my bad

[Iku Rex]

Grappled by tendrils seems pretty bound to me.

That's nice, but it's actually no different from any other grapple. If you want to describe it so that the character is helpless you need to change the monster's ability.

Why? If I bind your hands are you helpless?

"Bound" in this context means more than just tied up hands.

Helpless

A helpless character is paralyzed, held, bound, sleeping, unconscious, or otherwise completely at an opponent’s mercy. A helpless target is treated as having a Dexterity of 0 (-5 modifier). Melee attacks against a helpless target get a +4 bonus (equivalent to attacking a prone target). Ranged attacks gets no special bonus against helpless targets. Rogues can sneak attack helpless targets.

As a full-round action, an enemy can use a melee weapon to deliver a coup de grace to a helpless foe. An enemy can also use a bow or crossbow, provided he is adjacent to the target. The attacker automatically hits and scores a critical hit. (A rogue also gets her sneak attack damage bonus against a helpless foe when delivering a coup de grace.) If the defender survives, he must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + damage dealt) or die.

Delivering a coup de grace provokes attacks of opportunity.

Creatures that are immune to critical hits do not take critical damage, nor do they need to make Fortitude saves to avoid being killed by a coup de grace.

Evasion (Ex)

At 2nd level or higher if a monk makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if a monk is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless monk does not gain the benefit of evasion.

The rules are badly written and in this case produce a counter intuitive situation where someone tied up with tendrils can use dexterity to avoid a 40 foot wide fireball without moving from where he is. That's not going to happen.

You never "move from [the square] where you are" when dodging a fireball. Nor do you lose an action, become vulnerable to attack (AoO), go prone or have your attacks interrupted. If your idea of what a fireball is and how it's avoided contradicts this, then you're not picturing a DnD fireball.

[nagora]

You never "move from [the square] where you are" when dodging a fireball. Nor do you lose an action, become vulnerable to attack (AoO), go prone or have your attacks interrupted. If your idea of what a fireball is and how it's avoided contradicts this, then you're not picturing a DnD fireball.

Quoting another badly written rule doesn't help your case any.

It's conversations like this that really make me wonder why anyone plays 3rd edition. It seems to constantly battle with the DM's ability to paint a believable world. 1st edition seems superior in every way.

[Iku Rex]

The point was that the rules do accurately reflect what's happening. It can't be otherwise, because "what's happening" is defined by the rules.

Is this the ideal way to think in terms of roleplaying? What's happening is defined by the actions of the GM and characters, the rules serve as a structure around which indefinite actions are resolved, such as whether you hit something or how likely you are to dodge an attack. The rules aren't there to restrict, they're a structure, and a pretty loose one at that.

Yours and nagoras point has been that the rules don't reflect "what's really happening". The assumption is that "what's really happening" is an objective, universally shared part of DnD. If you really meant "what's really happening in my campaign after I changed how reflex saves work" then that's another matter entirely. But that's not how it's presented.

As for being protected by the monsters tendrils, well it's a fireball, so now they're superhot tendrils clutching at the character, thus adding to the pain at least as much as the protection they give.

My suggestion for an in-game justification is not contradicted by any rule. Your objection on the other hand is clearly absurd, as fireballs don't turn limbs "superhot".

[Alveanerle]

In other words - being grappled by tentacles is far from being bound by them.
For that you need to be pinned too.

And, unless tentacles are flammable or metallic, i see no reason why they should be super-hot. Thermal conductivity of organic mass is not great enough for them to superheat from a brief exposure to flames.

[banjo1985]

My suggestion for an in-game justification is not contradicted by any rule. Your objection on the other hand is clearly absurd, as fireballs don't turn limbs "superhot".

Oookay so a huge ball of flame wouldn't warm you up the teensiest little bit?

As far as arguing rules goes I'm a long way out of my depth, I'm just putting across that a rule I believe to be counterproductive in this situation maybe just should be ignored or changed to suit the play. As far as rules go I am in no doubt that your view is correct

[Iku Rex]

Quoting another badly written rule doesn't help your case any.

Once again refusing to acknowledge that DnD fireballs don't have the effect you think they do doesn't help your case any.

You've created your own kind of fireball spell, way different from the fireball spell in the DnD game, and now you're complaining about how the DnD rules don't accurately represent how your fireball works.

[draca]

I see a lot of good ideas here. I think the rules left a little slack for times like this, but I’ve seen rules posted here, that as written – before any decision for or against changing the rules to fit the situation – will have allowed your friend to live.

1) The hp gain looks like it’s permanent, regardless of form.

2) I realize you have a house rule where he will convert to human form when unconscious; however by the rules that’s not necessarily the case. I saw rules here quoting how a dead body is treated differently then a helpless adventurer. That holds true for most case and effects. However, refer to rule #1 he will still be at -5 if he didn’t save.

3) The rule on reflex saves states that there is - apart from dexterity and ability to tumble, wiggle or dodge - a supernatural factor in effect that makes it almost impossible to not get to make your saving throw. None of those well defined factors applied to the rogue, so the only question is what, if any, negative modifier to apply. There is no modifier stated for being grappled. There is one for being bound, and one for being entangled like the spell. Many plant creatures have an entangle special or spell-like ability, but if it was being run as a grapple, it should be run as a grapple, even when it would be advantageous to the player.

I hope that holds to all rules, and I certainly try to run things that way. If all of a sudden something may occur that doesn’t make sense, but is by the book, and it can save a player’s character I go with it. Then later, when someone’s character’s life isn’t on the line, we decide if we want to change the rules in the future. Otherwise inconsistency and making rules that “make sense” that get PCs killed can come off as the DM cheezing the rules to kill PCs on a case by case basis.