Vow of the Forsaken (Player-friendly paladin who has broken their oath) [PEACH]

[DracoKnight]

So, I think it's common knowledge that the Oathbreaker is CRAZY OP, and to me it doesn't make sense that breaking your Sacred Oath makes you evil. (Hehe, like say a drow made an Oath of Devotion to Lloth and broke it - now suddenly their abilities become even MORE evil.) With all of that in mind, I set about to making the Vow of the Forsaken, for the Paladin who has lost their way. I'm not 100% sure if this is balanced, I tried to be a little more conservative in its creation - the only ability I'm really unsure about is their 15th level ability. Thanks for you help in advance!

[JNAProductions]

Once again, the Oath list reads like a cherry picking of all the best spells. Tone that down a little.

CD looks good.

Blade of Radiance/Shadow should allow for two weapons, in case of TWF Paladins.

Life and Death has the sack of rats issue. REALLY BAD.

Clarity of Purpose might actually be a little weak.

[DracoKnight]

Once again, the Oath list reads like a cherry picking of all the best spells. Tone that down a little.

CD looks good.

Blade of Radiance/Shadow should allow for two weapons, in case of TWF Paladins.

Life and Death has the sack of rats issue. REALLY BAD.

Clarity of Purpose might actually be a little weak.

Okay, I'll try to find other spells (I was honestly trying to pick spells that would work thematically)

Glad the CD look good, since that was the Seraph's biggest issue

I added a clause that will prevent the sack of rats issue.

How would you buff it? And does it need to be buffed with everything else (like Life and Death) that the Forsaken gets?

Also, I added the spell desolate blade to the write up, since that's a homebrew spell.

[JNAProductions]

I don't think that really helps. It prevents the sack of rats issue, but not this issue:

Get a party member who is low on health.

Punch them down to 0 HP, gaining 20 HP for Lay On Hands.

Spend one point of Lay On Hands, healing them to 1.

Repeat, gaining 19 HP for LOH each time.

Do that at the start of the day till you have, like, 1900 HP. Should take about 20 minutes (200 rounds).

[DracoKnight]

I don't think that really helps. It prevents the sack of rats issue, but not this issue:

Get a party member who is low on health.

Punch them down to 0 HP, gaining 20 HP for Lay On Hands.

Spend one point of Lay On Hands, healing them to 1.

Repeat, gaining 19 HP for LOH each time.

Do that at the start of the day till you have, like, 1900 HP. Should take about 20 minutes (200 rounds).

I'll specify hostile creatures then.

EDIT: specified.

[JNAProductions]

I'll specify hostile creatures then.

EDIT: specified.

Okay. Should be good. I don't see any major abuse (other than doing that same thing to an enemy, which is pretty damn risky.)

[DracoKnight]

Okay. Should be good. I don't see any major abuse (other than doing that same thing to an enemy, which is pretty damn risky.)

DM: "You've just killed the tarrasque, what do you want to do now?"

Forsaken Paladin: "I want to use a bonus action to store the hit points granted by Life and Death, and then on my next turn I will heal the Tarrasque to 1 HP."

Party: *kills Forsaken Paladin*

^ I could totally see this happening in my group xD

EDIT: do you still think that Clarity of Purpose needs buffing?

[AvatarVecna]

I like how it focuses on Paladins who failed their oaths, but are still good people. The options presented in Core either completely hang on to their oaths, or abandon them completely in davor of being stupid evil.

I also like how this focus doesn't really make it too specific that it couldn't fit as somebody who fell from amy of the three core oaths.

[JNAProductions]

DM: "You've just killed the tarrasque, what do you want to do now?"

Forsaken Paladin: "I want to use a bonus action to store the hit points granted by Life and Death, and then on my next turn I will heal the Tarrasque to 1 HP."

Party: *kills Forsaken Paladin*

^ I could totally see this happening in my group xD

EDIT: do you still think that Clarity of Purpose needs buffing?

Probably. Could do with a little damage buff, maybe?

[DracoKnight]

I like how it focuses on Paladins who failed their oaths, but are still good people. The options presented in Core either completely hang on to their oaths, or abandon them completely in davor of being stupid evil.

I also like how this focus doesn't really make it too specific that it couldn't fit as somebody who fell from amy of the three core oaths.

This is high praise! Thank you! It means I accomplished my goal!

[DracoKnight]

Probably. Could do with a little damage buff, maybe?

Hmmmm...okay, so, like...maybe... 1d4 radiant or necrotic to your melee attacks?

[Final Hyena]

This line which is in relation to Clarity of Purpose;

Once you use this feature, you must complete a long rest before you can use it again.

Is cut off.

Desolate blade is too strong, it's elemental weapon with an extra 3 damage a casting time of bonus instead of an action. The duration change from an hour to a minute isn't a big enough deal as it'll likely get lost within the minute anyway.

[GandalfTheWhite]

I'm going to echo AvatarVecna's comments

Desolate blade is too strong, it's elemental weapon with an extra 3 damage a casting time of bonus instead of an action. The duration change from an hour to a minute isn't a big enough deal as it'll likely get lost within the minute anyway.

Not trying to argue, but I don't think it's actually stronger than elemental weapon. It's always going to grant +1 and 1d10 necrotic damage - it doesn't scale. And remember, as with everything a paladin has as far as spells go: it's competing for spell slots with Divine Smite.

EDIT: As far as total DPR goes, it's actually a LOT weaker than say, fireball. Fireball is only instantaneous, but it's a 40ft sphere that deals 8d6, or an average of 32 damage to EVERY creature in that sphere, or half of they succeed their saving throw. Let's say that there's about 4 enemies (the most common amount I've observed get hit by a fireball) inside that radius, and let's say 3 of them failed their save, but one of them succeeded, that's 112 damage. Over 1 minute - maintaining concentration, mind you - desolate blade will deal an average of 60 extra damage. That fireball is dealing almost TWICE the damage.

[Final Hyena]

I don't think it's actually stronger than elemental weapon. It's always going to grant +1 and 1d10 necrotic damage - it doesn't scale. And remember, as with everything a paladin has as far as spells go: it's competing for spell slots with Divine Smite.

I believe that the reduced duration of an hour to a minute is cancelled out by the action to bonus action casting. Which leaves 1d10 damage over 1d4. It may not scale, but I don't think that justifies being stronger than a spell of the same level the same way I wouldn't support a fireball that does 10d6 damage that doesn't scale.
It doesn't have to be as good as smite when it offers the ability to force more damage into fewer turns.

Edit;

EDIT: As far as total DPR goes, it's actually a LOT weaker than say, fireball. Fireball is only instantaneous, but it's a 40ft sphere that deals 8d6, or an average of 32 damage to EVERY creature in that sphere, or half of they succeed their saving throw. Let's say that there's about 4 enemies (the most common amount I've observed get hit by a fireball) inside that radius, and let's say 3 of them failed their save, but one of them succeeded, that's 112 damage. Over 1 minute - maintaining concentration, mind you - desolate blade will deal an average of 60 extra damage. That fireball is dealing almost TWICE the damage.

Firstly 8d6 is 28 average, secondly it's not a paladin spell.

[GandalfTheWhite]

I believe that the reduced duration of an hour to a minute is cancelled out by the action to bonus action casting. Which leaves 1d10 damage over 1d4. It may not scale, but I don't think that justifies being stronger than a spell of the same level the same way I wouldn't support a fireball that does 10d6 damage that doesn't scale.
It doesn't have to be as good as smite when it offers the ability to force more damage into fewer turns.

I've added more to why I think it's balanced.

[GandalfTheWhite]

Firstly 8d6 is 28 average, secondly it's not a paladin spell.

I realize that fireball isn't a paladin spell, but for damage dealing spells, it's a decently universal one to run average DPR calcs from. And I'm pretty sure the average is 32. But that's beside the point. Even at an average of 28, it's still the better spell. I don't think desolate blade is OP.

[Final Hyena]

I realize that fireball isn't a paladin spell, but for damage dealing spells, it's a decently universal one to run average DPR calcs from. And I'm pretty sure the average is 32. But that's beside the point. Even at an average of 28, it's still the better spell. I don't think desolate blade is OP.

Why is a spell that's not available to paladins good for calculations regarding paladins?
I could say that d8 is a decent universal hit dice to run averages from and call shenanigans on the barbarian.

1+2+3+4+5+6=21
divide by as many numbers
21/6=3.5
d6 = an average of 3.5
3.5 * 8 = 28

[JBPuffin]

Why is a spell that's not available to paladins good for calculations regarding paladins?
I could say that d8 is a decent universal hit dice to run averages from and call shenanigans on the barbarian.

1+2+3+4+5+6=21
divide by as many numbers
21/6=3.5
d6 = an average of 3.5
3.5 * 8 = 28

Well, you're not exactly wrong - the d12 hit die is definitely above the average, which is probably d8, maybe d8+1. The idea is to balance the spell not against the paladin's other stuff, but to other damaging spells in general, so one doesn't arms race their homebrew into a state of overpoweredness on accident.

And that spell looks really good on my buddy's fighter right about now...*slurping noises of a pleased aboleth*

[DracoKnight]

And that spell looks really good on my buddy's fighter right about now...*slurping noises of a pleased aboleth*

And this is why it's on the Warlock list in my group - not the Wizard list. Cuz EKs could abuse the hell out of it.

[GandalfTheWhite]

So, differing opinions on the spell aside, I think that you're solid on the abilities once you buff the capstone....and FYI, I'm chuckling to myself that you managed to make a WEAK paladin capstone.

[DracoKnight]

So, differing opinions on the spell aside, I think that you're solid on the abilities once you buff the capstone....and FYI, I'm chuckling to myself that you managed to make a WEAK paladin capstone.

Well, I figured Evasion to ALL saving throw types would be REALLY good on a paladin - especially given that they get +CHA to their saving throws.

This combined with a mini-haste seemed phenomenal to me.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

OHMYGOD! Jesus F*CKING Christ! If you want to play a gritty paladin play Vengeance. OR Multiclassin IS an option, Vengeance + War Cleric achieves the same f*cking feeling. You can stop homebrewing now! Jeez.

I really hope no one else replies to this thread. Just to prove that no one truly cares about homebrew - AS IT SHOULD BE!

No! It doesn't! IT NEEDS TO BE DESTROYED! YOU NEED TO BE STOPPED!!! You're tainting the perfection of 5e!!

don't you dare encourage him!!!!!!!

By any chance, did Homebrew run over your dog?

[GandalfTheWhite]

By any chance, did Homebrew run over your dog?

If we acknowledge the trolls it'll only encourage them.

[Final Hyena]

And this is why it's on the Warlock list in my group - not the Wizard list. Cuz EKs could abuse the hell out of it.

It only stipulates a range of 5 feet and a limitation of your weapon.
Someone else can use your weapon but that doesn't make it theirs.
Add in a stipulation about it being in your possession.

[DracoKnight]

It only stipulates a range of 5 feet and a limitation of your weapon.
Someone else can use your weapon but that doesn't make it theirs.
Add in a stipulation about it being in your possession.

Ah, yes. That should be a clause, shouldn't it

[DracoKnight]

Updated the spell

[JNAProductions]

Updated the spell

Thanks for letting us know.

[khadgar567]

Ugh! Stop bumping your thread! Can't you tell that NO ONE CARES?! STOP PUBLISHING YOUR SH!TTY HOMEBREW!!! Honestly, you're just begging for attention, and it's repulsive! Nothing you make will ever be as good as anything Mike Mearles or Jeremy Crawford have made - that's including the Ranger UA article! You're seriously making nothing but sh*t! I've read ALL of your stuff and it's PURE CRAP! You should be sent to the Nine Hells, struck down by the gods!!

you know mate as some one who have trip to nine hells its pretty good place to have a holiday and asmodeus may employ guys like dracoknight with some goood payment so tyhanks for high prase mate

[DracoKnight]

you know mate as some one who have trip to nine hells its pretty good place to have a holiday and asmodeus may employ guys like dracoknight with some goood payment so tyhanks for high prase mate

I certainly wouldn't mind employment as a D&D developer

Thanks for letting us know.

Are there any other glaring issues? (or smaller, nitpicky ones?)

[JNAProductions]

With the exception of the 17th level spells, the Domain Spells are probably still too good.

I think it's pretty good though. The Heal on kill feature is still TECHNICALLY open to abuse, but any decent gaming group wouldn't bother with that.