A Question on Sunder

[Ali]

My question is; can you sunder with a natural weapon, such as a gore or a claw?

I can't seem to find the answer to this anywhere...

[Lucky]

As long as the weapon does slashing or bludgeoning damage, I'm pretty sure you can sunder.

[Miraqariftsky]

Hmm, I say it depends... If the item to be sundered is, say, some sort of polearm, then it's pretty easy to imagine that getting bitten or clawed through. If, however, it's a metal item, like a sword or shield... have you ever read of some monster that bites/claws through those things? Well sure, we all have dragons and rust monsters, but still...

[Lemur]

You're thinking about things too realistically for D&D there, Nexus. A sword isn't gonna cut a metal shield up any more than a bear's claw is from a realistic standpoint.

[Rad]

the rules just mention that a weapon is needed of the appropriate damage type. There is no reason for the rules that this should not be a natural weapon.

[Kizara]

At least in 3.0, the sundering weapon needed to be of a magical enchantment equal to the attacked weapon to damage/sunder it.

For instance, a monster with DR 15/+2 is considered to have +2 magical claws for the purpose of overcomming DR as well as sunder attempts (but doesnt get +2 additional attack/damage). However, if you have a +3 sword, that monster can't damage it.

Now, tbh 3.5 rules have moved away a bit from that DR system, so I honestly don't know anymore. But the fact that monster DR rarely kept up with a character's primary weapon enchantment was one of the main safegaurds against sundering.

[Quietus]

At least in 3.0, the sundering weapon needed to be of a magical enchantment equal to the attacked weapon to damage/sunder it.

For instance, a monster with DR 15/+2 is considered to have +2 magical claws for the purpose of overcomming DR as well as sunder attempts (but doesnt get +2 additional attack/damage). However, if you have a +3 sword, that monster can't damage it.

Now, tbh 3.5 rules have moved away a bit from that DR system, so I honestly don't know anymore. But the fact that monster DR rarely kept up with a character's primary weapon enchantment was one of the main safegaurds against sundering.

Yeah, now magical weapons just get a bonus to their hardness and hit points, making them magically "tougher" to break.

[ndragonsbane]

Yeah, now magical weapons just get a bonus to their hardness and hit points, making them magically "tougher" to break.

Even though this is the correct answer from the FAQ, I think the PHB still cites the old 3.0 rules so the correct rules are only listed somewhere in the DMG.

Also, sundering with a light weapon means you take a -4 penalty to the check and I think natural weapons are considered light weapons.

[edit: I can't find anything in the SRD about naturals weapons being light or one-handed though so I may be wrong]

[-Cor-]

You're thinking about things too realistically for D&D there, Nexus. A sword isn't gonna cut a metal shield up any more than a bear's claw is from a realistic standpoint.

You think? I have a sword, you have a heavy steel shield. My sword is MW or better. You don't think that if I hit your shield in just the right places (the opposed sunder rolls) hard enough (overcoming object hardness) and enough times (object hit points) I couldn't effectively ruin it?

Sunder just means ruined... not "cleft in twain". I realize this is semantically incorrect, but Sunder just means unusable because of damage.

i.e.- You can't use your shield anymore because I dented in all of it's weak places and you can't "get a good grip on it" or something.

Seems reasonable for a natural weapon to be able to eventually do this, but with light weapon penalties as mentioned above or some other obstacle.

[Amphimir Míriel]

You're thinking about things too realistically for D&D there, Nexus. A sword isn't gonna cut a metal shield up any more than a bear's claw is from a realistic standpoint.

You are absolutely right, however that doesnt prevent a crafty fighter (or bear) from being able to sunder a metal shield... Here are two descriptions I came up in the spur of the moment:

Sword sundering a metal shield:

" You hit the edge of the shield with the pommel of your sword in a powerful, downward strike, causing one of the leather straps binding the shield to the opponents arm to snap"

Bear claw sundering a metal shield:

" The bear, until now in a bipedal position, lunges down and forward, hitting you with both claws and all its beastly strenght and weight... You manage to deflect the blow with your shield, but the shield is now bent, causing it to flange sideways in a way that prevents you from maneouvering it correctly... You have no choice but to drop it"

[Roderick_BR]

The Player's say that a high level Monk's Ki Strike makes his fists count as adamant to bypass damage reduction, and directs you to the "Smashing an object" section, so I think you can.

[Bitzeralisis]

This should go in the Simple Q&A III thread...

[Lemur]

To Cor and Amphimir- thank you for providing justifications for the sundering capacity of manufactured and natural weapons, but that wasn't really what I was getting at. I was just trying to point out that a natural weapon shouldn't be considered inferior to a manufactured weapon in d20 for the purpose of attacking objects.

The implication is that realistic standards shouldn't be shown favor over game mechanics in D&D. Realistically, you'll die before you manage to ruin the metal shield of your opponent, but that's not what D&D is about (sundering shields in D&D is still a bad choice though, barring exceptional circumstances).

[herrhauptmann]

(sundering shields in D&D is still a bad choice though, barring exceptional circumstances).

It is a bad idea I think in early games where the party is strapped for cash and reduced to selling the dead kobolds morningstars.
It is always a bad idea to sunder the BBEG (or his lieutenant's) shield.
Once you're mid-level or higher and rolling through mobs of orcs with levels, it can be a good idea.
It's an even better idea in any RPGA game, there it doesn't matter if you destroy the possessions of every monster in the game. You still get your money, and the option to 'buy' the sword belonging to the BBEG