Iron Chef Optimisation Challenge in the Playground LXXIX

[MisterKaws]

LA wasn't a thing in 3.0. You just weren't supposed to play monsters.

I believe the alternate form ability worked differently under 3.0 rules. Also, the damage reduction was higher. Probably some other differences too. You can find the 3.0 version here.

I'm comparing them, and his lycanthrope just looks like a normal were-nifern with -1 buyoff.

[Thurbane]

Just out of curiosity (as I don't see any in the entries, unless I'm missing something) - would Quasilycanthrope actually satisfy the reqs for BBH?

My argument for the affirmative would be as follows:

Size and Type: The base creature's type does not change, but the creature gains the shapechanger subtype. The lycanthrope takes a few characteristics of some type of carnivorous or omnivorous creature of the animal type (referred to hereafter as the base animal).

Any thoughts? Would quasilycanthropehave been a legal entry?

[Troacctid]

Any thoughts? Would quasilycanthropehave been a legal entry?

Quasilycanthropes are not actually lycanthropes.

When a latent quasilycanthrope is exposed to the curse of lycanthropy and fails its saving throw (see the Lycanthrope entry in the Monster Manual), it does not become an actual lycanthrope; instead, its quasilycanthrope abilities emerge.

[MisterKaws]

Any thoughts? Would quasilycanthropehave been a legal entry?

Well, even if they have "Quasi" on their names, they still have "Lycanthrope".

You'd be hammered into pieces for not qualifying to use a good chunk of the class features, though.

[Thurbane]

Yeah, that's pretty much what I figured - either it would be legal, but unable to use a bunch of BBH features; or ruled entirely unable to meet reqs for the SI.

I was trying to weigh up only having LA +1 as an upside - but since I had to eat 4 level of Battle Dancer to qualify for Vile Natural Attack without losing BAB, that only left 5 levels to play with (if I wanted to complete BBH).

All in all, aside from not having the time IRL to format an entry, I wasn't overly happy with the build...

[The Viscount]

While our judges look over the builds, what does everyone think of Fang of Sseth as an ingredient? Entry isn't too hard, and it offers some abilities to work with. It's more playable than some of our other ingredients, but I think it's still difficult enough to be interesting.

[Sian]

While our judges look over the builds, what does everyone think of Fang of Sseth as an ingredient? Entry isn't too hard, and it offers some abilities to work with. It's more playable than some of our other ingredients, but I think it's still difficult enough to be interesting.

Obscure Setting book, when we have recently have had a lot of setting-specific classes ... I'm inclined to say no thanks :p

[MisterKaws]

While our judges look over the builds, what does everyone think of Fang of Sseth as an ingredient? Entry isn't too hard, and it offers some abilities to work with. It's more playable than some of our other ingredients, but I think it's still difficult enough to be interesting.

I think it's kinda too bland, and we did get two really bland classes in a row before this round, both of which had nearly no entries, so I don't really think it's a good idea.

[Thurbane]

While our judges look over the builds, what does everyone think of Fang of Sseth as an ingredient? Entry isn't too hard, and it offers some abilities to work with. It's more playable than some of our other ingredients, but I think it's still difficult enough to be interesting.

Peronally - I'd love to see this as an ingredient. As with BBH, I'm not normally a huge fan of FR specific PrCs, but I do love "monstrous" PrCs. Although I see you can enter as a stock standard human, though...

However, as it has a few similarities in theme to BBH, maybe wait a few rounds first.

I'm just gonna throw Dragon Samurai out there again, since I don't think anyone can actually make a dish out of it that wouldn't be better off without it - a true challenge!

[Amphetryon]

I don't think Fang of Sseth is bland - to my way of thinking, the current ingredient is less innately flavorful than the FoSs - but that 8th level ability is a poorly-worded nightmare.

[Thurbane]

I don't think Fang of Sseth is bland - to my way of thinking, the current ingredient is less innately flavorful than the FoSs - but that 8th level ability is a poorly-worded nightmare.

Hmm, hadn't noticed that.

Way it's worded, it would seem to be a one-shot ability, that lasts 8 hours and then it's gone.

If you were to rule it as a 1/day ability, it's a bit overpowered. It's like Darkstalker + HiPS on steroids.

Although, you would be ECL 15 by the time it came online, so maybe it's reasonable as a 1/day deal.

[MisterKaws]

I don't think Fang of Sseth is bland - to my way of thinking, the current ingredient is less innately flavorful than the FoSs - but that 8th level ability is a poorly-worded nightmare.

I say it's bland in that there's not a lot of space for customization. Just like Risen Martyr(peaceful guy who's immune to everything) and Great Rift Skyguard(Crazy Skydiving Dwarf), Fang of Sseth has only one path to take: sneak-attacking snake-dude. Of course, there are plenty of ways to optimize Sneak Attack, and even more ways to optimize Poison Use(I'm looking at you, Mr. Muschi), they will all come down to really the same thing. Actually, in mentioning that build, I just recalled that there were three or four rounds where the SI was pretty much just a different flavored version of this class. I think it could be interesting to see how people would come up with something original to do this one, but I'm afraid that it would cause people to flee, and turn it into another five-person round.

I think that for now, we should try and get something in a middle ground, not as customizable as this mess, but also not something with a complete lack of customization potential.

[WhamBamSam]

While our judges look over the builds, what does everyone think of Fang of Sseth as an ingredient? Entry isn't too hard, and it offers some abilities to work with. It's more playable than some of our other ingredients, but I think it's still difficult enough to be interesting.

Obscure Setting book, when we have recently have had a lot of setting-specific classes ... I'm inclined to say no thanks :p

If we were to go for another setting-specific PrC, I'd rather see Bayushi Deceiver. There's nothing all that wrong with Fang of Sseth apart from Enhanced Ranged Attacks and Serpent Shape not really jiving together, but nor is there anything all that right with it apart from the super invisibility which I read as an at-will SLA that you just have after experiencing the dream.

I'll take this opportunity to echo my standard refrain of Beast Heart Adept, Elocater, and Rage Mage and add Oozemaster, Eye of Gruumsh, Defiant, and Doomlord.

[daremetoidareyo]

Peronally - I'd love to see this as an ingredient. As with BBH, I'm not normally a huge fan of FR specific PrCs, but I do love "monstrous" PrCs. Although I see you can enter as a stock standard human, though...

However, as it has a few similarities in theme to BBH, maybe wait a few rounds first.

I'm just gonna throw Dragon Samurai out there again, since I don't think anyone can actually make a dish out of it that wouldn't be better off without it - a true challenge!

Anyone wanna sidebet for highest breathweapon damage?

[WhamBamSam]

I'd be down for Dragon Samurai, though how worthwhile the class ends up being depends largely on certain rules clarifications.

[MisterKaws]

Anyone wanna sidebet for highest breathweapon damage?

It's a 1/day nova with no metabreath compatibility; I'd be surprised if someone managed to scavenge something good out of that trash.

[WhamBamSam]

It's a 1/day nova with no metabreath compatibility; I'd be surprised if someone managed to scavenge something good out of that trash.

I'd prefer to avoid speculation, but there's at least one workaround to each of those issues, possibly more depending on rules interpretations.

[Inevitability]

I'm still hoping for Yathrinshee. I suppose it'd be cruel even by IC standards, though...

[MisterKaws]

I'd prefer to avoid speculation, but there's at least one workaround to each of those issues, possibly more depending on rules interpretations.

I do know most of them from my time optimizing Karcerers and DFA's, but still, doing most of them is just asking for an elegance penalty.

I'm still hoping for Yathrinshee. I suppose it'd be cruel even by IC standards, though...

That class is reasonably good, though. You can still get 8th-level spells with no cheese, and even more if you don't mind triggering a lactose-intolerant judge.

[WhamBamSam]

I do know most of them from my time optimizing Karcerers and DFA's, but still, doing most of them is just asking for an elegance penalty.

The workaround to the 1/day issue that I'm certain works isn't inelegant at all in and of itself, though it might lead me to do other, less elegant things. Metabreath workarounds are inherently a bit cheesy, but they're also pretty much a permanent fixture of all DFA optimization.

[The Viscount]

If we were to go for another setting-specific PrC, I'd rather see Bayushi Deceiver. There's nothing all that wrong with Fang of Sseth apart from Enhanced Ranged Attacks and Serpent Shape not really jiving together, but nor is there anything all that right with it apart from the super invisibility which I read as an at-will SLA that you just have after experiencing the dream.

I'll take this opportunity to echo my standard refrain of Beast Heart Adept, Elocater, and Rage Mage and add Oozemaster, Eye of Gruumsh, Defiant, and Doomlord.

I'm not saying Fang of Sseth has to be the next ingredient, just putting it out there. I'd readily cook with any and all of the above ingredients listed here.

Dragon Shaman is horrid, but I'd want to find something to do with it.

On the subject of Yathrinshee, I would rather we not have that. It's too close to true necromancer, and it's not going to allow almost any variety in the build (5 levels divine class, 3 levels arcane class, 10 levels SI, 2 LA, race locked), and the notable class features (threnody and curse of the revenancer) need to be clarified to work, and the latter of which brings the class down enormously without a DM gift.

[Thurbane]

Yikes - Yathrinshee has so many reqs!

Still, I have a a (very inelgant) build in mind I could put in for it.

[WhamBamSam]

I'm not saying Fang of Sseth has to be the next ingredient, just putting it out there. I'd readily cook with any and all of the above ingredients listed here.

Dragon Shaman is horrid, but I'd want to find something to do with it.

Fair enough. I could see it being an okay round at some point, though MisterKaws might be right about it being too confining for a particularly diverse round.

I actually think that Dragon Samurai might not be that bad depending on certain rules interpretations.

On the subject of Yathrinshee, I would rather we not have that. It's too close to true necromancer, and it's not going to allow almost any variety in the build (5 levels divine class, 3 levels arcane class, 10 levels SI, 2 LA, race locked), and the notable class features (threnody and curse of the revenancer) need to be clarified to work, and the latter of which brings the class down enormously without a DM gift.

Well, we'd all use some LA+0 Drow variety (there are, what, five?) and be messing around with early entry shenanigans (which are actually less questionable than usual for Yathrinshee due to the way the casting prereqs work). I'm not terribly enthused about it either, but it wouldn't be so bad as all that.

Threnody is indeed somewhat poorly written, and I'd want some clarification with regard to Curse of the Revenancer, though I don't see what's so crippling about it on its face.

[Bucky]

Given the prerequisites, Yathrinshee looks to me like there's one obvious build that's just too good not to use at least 16/20 ECL of.

[Sian]

I kinda hope that the next dish is simple and flexible... the last many SI's have been very strict prerequsites in theme and/or style

[Heliomance]

I'm thinking next round I might give you an actually decent PrC to play with. I know! Madness! What am I thinking?!

[Thurbane]

I kinda hope that the next dish is simple and flexible... the last many SI's have been very strict prerequsites in theme and/or style

That's a good point, too.

On the plus side, Dragon Samurai reqs are pretty easy (BAB +5, Knowledge [arcana] 2 ranks)! :P

[MisterKaws]

I'm thinking next round I might give you an actually decent PrC to play with. I know! Madness! What am I thinking?!

It had to come to this, sooner or later.

Remember, in 500 or so rounds, we will have no choice but to do Ur Priest...

[Inevitability]

It had to come to this, sooner or later.

Remember, in 500 or so rounds, we will have no choice but to do Ur Priest...

In 500 or so rounds, we'll be either old or dead. Probably dead.

And yes, I did the math.

[MisterKaws]

In 500 or so rounds, we'll be either old or dead. Probably dead.

And yes, I did the math.

I'd be on my 60s, so I'll be patiently waiting for it.