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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    MonkGuy

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    Post AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Hello all. This is my first post! Woohoo!

    I've been coming to the forum for some time now, collecting ideas about homebrew 5e things. Now that I want to try my hand at some homebrewing, I thought I'd get an account and post it here for critiques, suggestions, etc.

    Spoiler: Way of the Undulating Dragon (with stances)
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    Monastic Tradition – Way of the Undulating Dragon


    Bonus Proficiencies
    When you learn the Way of the Undulating Dragon at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with the Acrobatics and Performance skills. If you make a check using these skills while using a spear or a quarterstaff, double your proficiency bonus for these skills.

    Undulating Dragon Stances
    Also at 3rd level, you learn to enter a number of stances that rely on the use of spears and quarterstaffs along with constant movement. The Way of the Undulating Dragon teaches three stances. While wielding a spear or a quarterstaff in both hands (benefitting from the Versatile quality), you may use a bonus action and spend 1 Ki point to enter one of these stances. If you do not move at least 10 feet on your turn or if at any point you do not wield a spear or a quarterstaff with both hands, you exit the stance immediately. At the beginning of your turn if you are in a stance, you may switch to another stance without using an action. You may exit a stance at any point without using an action. Once a Ki point is spent to enter a stance, unless you exit a stance entirely, you may remain in a stance for one minute. This may be extended by one minute by expending another Ki point. This may be done as many times as you wish.

    While you are in any of these stances, you grant the Reach quality to spears and quarterstaffs. You may use spears or quarterstaffs rather than unarmed attacks when using Martial Arts to make an attack using a bonus action or when using Flurry of Blows. These attacks use your Martial Arts damage die rather than the weapon’s damage die unless something specifically says otherwise.

    Aggressive Stance
    You take a stance that focuses on making more effective attacks against your enemies, using your weapon to its full potential. While in this stance, you use your weapon’s damage die for the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows rather than your Martial Arts damage die.

    Defensive Stance
    You take a stance that focuses on deflecting attacks directed at you. If you have spent at least 1 Ki during your turn, your Armor Class increases by 1 until your next turn. While you are in this stance, if you did not spend Ki for any other reason on your turn, you may spend 1 Ki as a reaction when you are targeted by an attack to receive this benefit.

    Controlling Stance
    You take a stance that focuses on controlling your enemies on the battlefield. When you hit an enemy with an attack made using your Flurry of Blows, you may choose to impose one of the following effects on the target:
    • If it is using a weapon, it must make a Dexterity saving throw or be disarmed. If disarmed, its weapon falls to its feet.
    • It must make a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
    • If it is one Size category larger than you or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can force it to move to any unoccupied space within 5 feet of where it is currently standing.

    Advanced Stances
    At 6th level, you have advanced your understanding of the Way of the Undulating Dragon. Your stances offer you more potent abilities.

    Aggressive Stance
    Each attack you make that hits deals 1 extra damage of the same type as that attack.

    Defensive Stance
    You can use your reaction to deflect a strike when you are hit by a melee attack. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level. If you reduce the damage to 0, you can spend 1 Ki point to make a weapon attack against the attacker.

    Controlling Stance
    You can use your reaction to redirect an enemy’s weapons attack when it misses you. You can spend 1 Ki point to cause a missed weapon attack to target another enemy of your choice within reach of the original attack.

    Powerful Kata
    At 11th level, if you make a successful Performance check which showcases one of the stances learned though the Way of the Undulating Dragon, you may choose a benefit based on the stance that you showcased. When you use this feature, you may choose a number of targets to affect. Once you have affected a number of targets equal to your Monk level, you cannot use this feature again until you complete a long rest.

    Aggressive Stance
    You have advantage with Intimidation checks against the target for one hour following the performance.

    Defensive Stance
    The target has Disadvantage on its next attack against you, so long as the attack is made within the next hour.

    Controlling Stance
    You have advantage with Persuasion checks against the target for one hour following the performance.

    Disabling Strike
    At 17th level, you have learned to use your Ki to keep an enemy reeling. If you hit an enemy that is currently stunned from your Stunning Strike with a spear or a quarterstaff, you can spend a bonus action and 1 Ki point to extend the duration of the Stunning Strike for an extra round. Once an enemy has been affected by this ability three times, you cannot affect it again until you successfully affect it with Stunning Strike again.


    So... what do you think? I'd be happy to hear some feedback.
    Last edited by AngryJesusMan; 2016-08-06 at 02:34 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Thanks for the contribution! I think that a spear-wielding monk is a cool concept, and I had fun reading your class. Below I have some thoughts/critiques; take them as you will:

    Undulating Dragon Stance should be compared to the barbarian's rage - you can activate it with a bonus action. My main concern is that, when a combat starts, the monk needs to wait a turn before they can use their cool features. From a realism standpoint, it doesn't take 6 seconds to set your feet right.

    You seem to want to disallow using two weapons - I understand. But as written, you can start your turn with two hands on your weapon and still get up to dual-wielding shenannigans.

    Like the barbarian, some features should be able to be used outside of the stance.

    Deflecting Strike is too bloated. You get:
    -lots of damage reduction every turn (making it much harder for them to fail a concentration check)
    -ability to strike back at someone
    -an additional chosen effect

    Disabling Strike: This feature does damage equal to the warlock's comparable feature, but also effectively ends the combat against the creature. This is a 'save or suck' feature - if the big bad evil guy doesn't happen to succeed on their save, the combat is over.

    Let me know what you think!

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    Thanks for the contribution! I think that a spear-wielding monk is a cool concept, and I had fun reading your class. Below I have some thoughts/critiques; take them as you will:
    Thanks! That's why I posted it here. Glad you enjoyed it. Now, let's get to addressing your feedback.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    Undulating Dragon Stance should be compared to the barbarian's rage - you can activate it with a bonus action. My main concern is that, when a combat starts, the monk needs to wait a turn before they can use their cool features. From a realism standpoint, it doesn't take 6 seconds to set your feet right.
    I can understand that. I was just trying to find a way to make it restrictive to enter the stance since my original idea doesn't have the limited number of uses like Rage. I suppose it could cost a Ki point, but then I imagine that it would probably need a duration like Rage. If the character fails the concentration check, they lose the benefits until they can spend another bonus action to enter it again. That way they're not burning through too much Ki to benefit from the basis of the Tradition, but it does provide a definite limit for it. Does that sound better? Unless you have a better suggestion, in which case I welcome the input.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    You seem to want to disallow using two weapons - I understand. But as written, you can start your turn with two hands on your weapon and still get up to dual-wielding shenannigans.
    I realized that after I posted and forgot to address it. With the change proposed above, I was thinking of changing it so if you stop wielding a spear or a quarterstaff with both hands that you drop out of the stance. With it not taking a full action to reenter the stance, I would feel pretty good about that change.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    Like the barbarian, some features should be able to be used outside of the stance.
    I can see that. Everything does rely rather heavily on the stance. If I was going to change this, I'd have to say I would lean toward allowing the Martials Arts bonus action and Flurry of Blows outside of the stance, along with Disabling Strike. Granting the spear the Reach quality and Deflecting Strike should be tied to the stance, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    Deflecting Strike is too bloated. You get:
    -lots of damage reduction every turn (making it much harder for them to fail a concentration check)
    -ability to strike back at someone
    -an additional chosen effect
    I felt that it was a little bloated too. I really like the base mechanic. It's almost an exact port of Deflect Missiles, so I feel like it just changes a functionality that the class already has available and refocuses it to fit the "hard to hit" theme of the Tradition. After all, if the monk was fighting an enemy with a bow, crossbow, sling, or any other projectile weapon, they'd be able to achieve essentially the same kind of damage negation. It makes the character very strong against a single opponent but significantly more vulnerable to multiple enemies since you can only use one reaction per round.

    What if I removed the added effect, at least at 3rd level. I could move that part of it to 6th level. The extra damage was something that I came up with on the fly, but it never really meshed well with the rest of the Tradition in my head. I like the battlefield control aspect, but the Open Hand monks have most of that on lockdown. It sticks to the general template of providing a "free" bonus (no need to spend Ki) that is set up by Way of the Shadow and Open Hand without providing anything too overpowered in and of itself. Making it dependent on spending that initial Ki point and landing a hit makes it reasonably situational but still fairly controllable by the character, which also seems to fit the "teleport in dim light" power.

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    Disabling Strike: This feature does damage equal to the warlock's comparable feature, but also effectively ends the combat against the creature. This is a 'save or suck' feature - if the big bad evil guy doesn't happen to succeed on their save, the combat is over.
    Again, this is almost an exact clone of the Way of the Open Hand's cap ability. Specifically, Save or die, Fail still equals 10d10 necrotic. I think its fair to say that this is comparable. Save or die vs Save or suck which almost certainly ends the combat for the target on a failed save. The only difference, which I missed until I sat and thought about it a little longer, is that the Save or die effect of the Open Hand ability requires an action to trigger. Maybe I can add that stipulation? If that still seems too powerful, do you have any ideas?

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    Let me know what you think!
    Overall, good observations. Hopefully these changes move it closer to something that's not too overpowered. Let me know how you feel about these changes. Thanks.

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Undulating Dragon Stance
    Hm. I what you are going for. You want it to be so that the character can assume a stance, and that if they get hit too hard they must succeed on a concentration check or lose the stance.

    I suppose it depends on what you mean by stance. If it is a mental/mystical thing, then the character would need to concentrate on keeping that frame of mind.

    However, if it is simply a way of holding and moving your body, then I think that concentration isn't warranted, and neither is the use of ki.

    I've looked at the PHB... and I think that the Martial Arts feature already allows for the use of spears and staffs.

    So basically, this feature should just grant the reach quality to spears and quarterstaffs. You can remove the stance entirely.

    Everything does rely rather heavily on the stance.
    If you take my above advice, it is fixed.

    It's almost an exact port of Deflect Missiles, so I feel like it just changes a functionality that the class already has available and refocuses it to fit the "hard to hit" theme of the Tradition.
    I think that the main purpose of Deflect Missiles is to allow Monks to avoid ranged attacks until they get up close. A monk otherwise has very little ability to deal with combat at range - Deflect Missiles is a brute-force method to deal with this.

    I really like how this ability can give the character control of the battlefield. I think that perhaps the attack should be removed, and instead simply allow the character to trip, move, or disarm the enemy in retaliation. This way you don't do more damage, but you do gain advantages over the enemy.

    Again, this is almost an exact clone of the Way of the Open Hand's cap ability.
    I concede the point then.

    I think that you can make each condition last for 1 day. This would reduce word count of the feature.

    I think that by copying the format of the Quivering Palm feature you can make it easier to read. That's what I do whenever I homebrew stuff - I look at WotC's wording.

    I think that the purpose of the Quivering Palm feature's 1 extra action is so that enemies can conceivably have at least 1 round to escape to another plane, incapacitate the monk, or otherwise avoid death. Perhaps the same quality is merited here?


    I think that we have a good conversation going, thanks for that. I recently made a battledancer base class, and I think that the ideas you have for this subclass would fit there rather well. After we talk this all out I think I may graft it over there if you don't mind.

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    You are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Also I really don't get how a spear or quarterstaff used this way has anything to do with an Undulating Dragon.
    1. You have so much text at third level that not only is it a lot of repetition but you are also giving a lot. You are almost consistently giving them Dual Wielder and Two-weapon fighting right off the bat than you give something like the Open Hand's feature on Deflect Missiles.
    2. 6th level is just fine alone but keep in mind you are adding a lot
    3. Elusive Prey is beyond ridiculous. This curb-stomps the Stalker archetype's capstone in the ground. It even encroaches on Elusive, an amazing 18th rogue ability.
    4. Disabling Strike is no where near close to Quivering Palm. First off lets off understand something about the archetypes. The Open Hand Monk abilities at level 6 and 11 kind of suck. The first is a boring healing ability that happens once per day that is a little better than a +2 to constitution. The level 11 ability well gets taken away once combat starts for the day. Quivering Palm though is border line broken but what keeps it from being broken out right is its action economy. In order to use the feature you need to have hit them with an unarmed strike and use an action for the feature. This means they can only use it once every other turn(that is all you get to do unless you spend more ki) unless opponents are dumb in triggering opportunity attacks. Yours though can choose to spam them after every attack forcing them to make 3 times a round.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2016-07-03 at 08:37 AM.

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Amnoriath isn't gentle, and in fact he may be rather rude in bits. But elusive target is rather strong, even if you do keep the stance.

    I never realized that Quivering Palm isn't a long rest deal. In that case... I think adjustments should be made. Even if Quivering Palm is balanced, I think that varying it from the status quo is a positive thing.

    What do you think?

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    Hm. I what you are going for. You want it to be so that the character can assume a stance, and that if they get hit too hard they must succeed on a concentration check or lose the stance.

    I suppose it depends on what you mean by stance. If it is a mental/mystical thing, then the character would need to concentrate on keeping that frame of mind.

    However, if it is simply a way of holding and moving your body, then I think that concentration isn't warranted, and neither is the use of ki.

    I've looked at the PHB... and I think that the Martial Arts feature already allows for the use of spears and staffs.

    So basically, this feature should just grant the reach quality to spears and quarterstaffs. You can remove the stance entirely.
    The PHB allows spears and quarterstaffs to be used as monk weapons, yes. However, this allows them to be used in lieu of the Unarmed Attacks that Martial Arts usually allows. The bonus action allowed by Martial Arts and Flurry of Blows in the PHB specifies Unarmed Attack. Allowing weapon attacks instead changes this a little by adding the possibility of benefiting from magic weapons bonuses, so I feel like there needs to be a little bit of a trade-off. This is in addition to granting reach to a spear and a quarterstaff.

    From a balance standpoint, that's where the Concentration check comes in. Most melee related concentration spells have pretty decent benefits, so the ability to add magic effects from weapons on your bonus actions and reach to a weapon that doesn't normally have it seems less strong but reasonable. Also, if you're concentrating on this, then you can't pull as many shenanigans by finding a way to load yourself with a concentration spell. I like that give-and -take, so I'd like to keep the stance with the concentration requirement.


    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    I think that the main purpose of Deflect Missiles is to allow Monks to avoid ranged attacks until they get up close. A monk otherwise has very little ability to deal with combat at range - Deflect Missiles is a brute-force method to deal with this.

    I really like how this ability can give the character control of the battlefield. I think that perhaps the attack should be removed, and instead simply allow the character to trip, move, or disarm the enemy in retaliation. This way you don't do more damage, but you do gain advantages over the enemy.
    Fair enough. Maybe, rather than moving the battlefield control to 6th level, the part about the counterattack or redirecting the original strike can be moved? Especially with the other suggestions about the disadvantage being strictly overpowered. This would cut down on doubling that, cut down on the wall of text for level 3, and give me a viable alternative for the higher levels. Thoughts on that?


    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    I think that you can make each condition last for 1 day. This would reduce word count of the feature.

    I think that by copying the format of the Quivering Palm feature you can make it easier to read. That's what I do whenever I homebrew stuff - I look at WotC's wording.

    I think that the purpose of the Quivering Palm feature's 1 extra action is so that enemies can conceivably have at least 1 round to escape to another plane, incapacitate the monk, or otherwise avoid death. Perhaps the same quality is merited here?
    I can get behind all of that. This also addresses Amnoriath's main critique of the feature.

    The problem is that Amnoriath also makes some salient points concerning Open Hand's other abilities being lackluster. Deflecting Strike is quite so powerful, even with the changes. In response, I was thinking maybe expanding the monk's existing Stunning Strike. How about this change:

    Disabling Strike
    At 17th level, you have learned to use your Ki to keep an enemy reeling. If you hit an enemy that is currently stunned from your Stunning Strike with a spear or a quarterstaff, you can spend your reaction and 1 Ki point to extend the duration of the Stunning Strike for an extra round. This can be done up to three times.

    This is a big change from the original, but I think it has some merit. It uses the same action as Deflecting Strike, meaning that you're essentially focusing on the one target and forgoing your defensive bonuses. Also, if you're using your reaction for anything else, this isn't an option. It does the same thing as just hitting it with another Stunning Strike but removes the saving throw. Also, it means you're not stranding an enemy and mopping up all of its buddies, since it requires you to hit the enemy again (meaning that in most cases that you've at least spent a bonus action on it in addition to the reaction). It sticks with the 3 Ki template put forth by the Open Hand ability but brings the power down and spreads it out over three rounds. Sure you and your party gain all of the advantages of having a Stunned enemy for several rounds, but that means that there's a distinct possibility of it coming out of the exchange alive, especially if another enemy starts harrying you and forces you to abandon this tactic. It remains within my intended "very strong against a single opponent, not nearly as stout against multiple enemies" intention. Thoughts?

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    I think that we have a good conversation going, thanks for that. I recently made a battledancer base class, and I think that the ideas you have for this subclass would fit there rather well. After we talk this all out I think I may graft it over there if you don't mind.
    My pleasure. I wouldn't mind that at all. If it can enhance someone else's game then I feel like I've accomplished something more than simply empowering my own game. Glad I could help.
    Last edited by AngryJesusMan; 2016-07-03 at 09:16 AM.

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    You are making this more complicated than it needs to be. Also I really don't get how a spear or quarterstaff used this way has anything to do with an Undulating Dragon.
    I'm still too new to the forum, so I can't post links, but if you do a web search of "wushu undulating dragon", you'll see where I got it. It's one of the primary descriptions of that eastern spear-based fighting style.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    1. You have so much text at third level that not only is it a lot of repetition but you are also giving a lot. You are almost consistently giving them Dual Wielder and Two-weapon fighting right off the bat than you give something like the Open Hand's feature on Deflect Missiles.
    2. 6th level is just fine alone but keep in mind you are adding a lot
    zeek0 and I have been discussing that. The intention was to limit this Tradition to two-handed spear and quarterstaff use. I've made suggestions that would drop you out of the stance if you weren't doing so. The primary thing about this style is that it gives the user reach and allows them to use the weapon attack where they would typically be required to use an unarmed attack. At this point, I'm thinking that those are benefit enough at 3rd level. I like the idea of the Concentration check and hedging out other concentration-based stuff (example, can't use this and Rage, can't maintain other concentration spells, etc), but at this point it may be cleaner to just leave that behind.

    Also based on that discussion and your observation, I'm thinking of moving Deflecting Strike to 6th level. It seems smoother, reduces clutter at 3rd level, and removes the power of the extra damage. At 3rd level it would only have the battlefield control aspect. The extra attack and redirecting the original attack would likely move to 11th level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    3. Elusive Prey is beyond ridiculous. This curb-stomps the Stalker archetype's capstone in the ground. It even encroaches on Elusive, an amazing 18th rogue ability.
    Fair. I'm leaving this behind entirely. See my thoughts on this above.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    4. Disabling Strike is no where near close to Quivering Palm. First off lets off understand something about the archetypes. The Open Hand Monk abilities at level 6 and 11 kind of suck. The first is a boring healing ability that happens once per day that is a little better than a +2 to constitution. The level 11 ability well gets taken away once combat starts for the day. Quivering Palm though is border line broken but what keeps it from being broken out right is its action economy. In order to use the feature you need to have hit them with an unarmed strike and use an action for the feature. This means they can only use it once every other turn(that is all you get to do unless you spend more ki) unless opponents are dumb in triggering opportunity attacks. Yours though can choose to spam them after every attack forcing them to make 3 times a round.
    Again, in the other discussion I proposed a change. After hitting an enemy that is affected by your Stunning Strike, allow the monk to spend a reaction and one Ki to extend a Stunning Strike, repeatable for up to 3 extra rounds. No extra damage other than the better chance to hit a Stunned enemy. No debilitating, combat-ending Conditions. Requires you to focus on your target and ignore other uses of your reaction. Forces you to spend some extra Ki, but draws out the process over 3 rounds. What about that?

    And thanks for the feedback. It's helped me get this closer to being something usable.

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by AngryJesusMan View Post
    Fair enough. Maybe, rather than moving the battlefield control to 6th level, the part about the counterattack or redirecting the original strike can be moved? Especially with the other suggestions about the disadvantage being strictly overpowered. This would cut down on doubling that, cut down on the wall of text for level 3, and give me a viable alternative for the higher levels. Thoughts on that?
    Actually, after some thought and as I stated in the reply to Amnoriath, I'm thinking of moving Deflecting Strike with battlefield control to 6th level, while moving the counterattack and redirection option to 11th level. This will lighten up 3rd level and get rid of the other two mechanics, one of which was overpowered.

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    I've incorporated the discussed changes into the original post. Feel free to check it out.

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    1. I get that it is based upon a certain Wushu technique but you see that is an issue in and of itself. Sub-classes are suppose to change and modify how a character interacts with the world, not just battle. What you made is a sub-class that is really good fighting with a spear or quarterstaff but does nothing else, not even with the weapons.
    2. It is better but Deflecting Strike is far stronger than Deflecting Missiles, not only does it encompass more attacks but it is also free with additional riders. This also makes Improved Deflecting Strike confusing as does it allow you to redirect their attack and make another attack or what?
    3. Disabling strike is more balanced now but currently it is still unarmed strikes and you really aren't suppose to use your reaction on your turn even though it is debatable sometimes. So if you want to keep that just make it so you can perform a Stunning Strike with those weapons and it uses a bonus action instead.

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    1. I get that it is based upon a certain Wushu technique but you see that is an issue in and of itself. Sub-classes are suppose to change and modify how a character interacts with the world, not just battle. What you made is a sub-class that is really good fighting with a spear or quarterstaff but does nothing else, not even with the weapons.
    I see what you're getting at. I'll have to give it some thought. Do you have any suggestions for this kind of thing? Fighting styles like this have are often used as a form of entertainment, such as several of the various demonstrations that you'll get if you search it on YouTube. hmm... (edit: more on this below)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    2. It is better but Deflecting Strike is far stronger than Deflecting Missiles, not only does it encompass more attacks but it is also free with additional riders. This also makes Improved Deflecting Strike confusing as does it allow you to redirect their attack and make another attack or what?
    Maybe I need to word it more clearly. It says "you may either", but maybe it needs to be broken up with a list to provide clarity? I like both the counterattack and the redirect, but it is quite a bit to keep track of. I think I'll scrap the redirect and move the counterattack back to the main power for clarity, leaving the riders dependent on hitting with the counterattack so that they're not entirely free.

    That way, at 11th level I could introduce a non-combat aspect of the style. I was thinking something along the lines of:

    Spoiler: Entrancing Kata
    Show

    Entrancing Kata

    At 11th level, you may perform a demonstration of your style for an audience. This demonstration lasts for at least one minute and cannot be performed in combat. During the performance, you may add your proficiency modifier to
    your Performance skill. If you make a successful Charisma (Performance) check during the demonstration, you may choose a number of creatures in the audience equal to your Monk level. Those creatures are charmed by you for one hour or or until you or your companions do anything harmful to it. They regard you as an impressive performer and warrior. When this effect ends, the creatures bear you no ill will. Once you have affected a number of creatures equal to your Monk level, you cannot use this effect again until you complete a long rest.


    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    3. Disabling strike is more balanced now but currently it is still unarmed strikes and you really aren't suppose to use your reaction on your turn even though it is debatable sometimes. So if you want to keep that just make it so you can perform a Stunning Strike with those weapons and it uses a bonus action instead.

    The copy of the PHB that I have says that Stunning Strike is, specifically, a weapon attack, so I think you are maybe just mistaken, or it's been errata-ed and I didn't realize?

    As for the reaction bit, I'll concede that you shouldn't be able to spend a reaction unless something is happening and you are responding to it. Changing it to a bonus action is a good idea. It still ties up the target and limits your ability to spam attacks on them with Attack Action + Flurry of Blows, so that's probably a better option. Thanks. How do you feel about this now?
    Last edited by AngryJesusMan; 2016-07-03 at 12:32 PM.

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Overall I feel that Deflecting Strike is strong enough as is without those options as this greatly increases the Monk's durability, arguably more than the Fighter. While the Stance may be cool to have as is I can't help that may be not only is the 10 feet prerequisite sort of extra and not very restrictive it doesn't really speak to a lot of duels. I think may be bring those options as bonus actions in your first level may be better and slightly buff a couple of them.
    As for Entrancing Kata while performance is good the whole 1 minute stare at you thing isn't going to happen unless you are actually performing for them in which a good performance should have a good result and benefit for your party any way. This is how I would do it.

    At level 11 you gain proficiency in Performance and Acrobatics checks. While wielding a spear or quarterstaff your proficiency bonus is doubled for those skill checks. This increase though doesn't stack with Expertise.

    P.S. My bad on Stunning Strike, still it seems weird that they would restrict it to weapon attacks.
    Last edited by Amnoriath; 2016-07-05 at 04:45 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #14
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Dec 2013

    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    P.S. My bad on Stunning Strike, still it seems weird that they would restrict it to weapon attacks.
    As an interesting note, "Unarmed Strike" is listed as a weapon on the weapons table, under "Simple Melee Weapons". I think it would make sense to view your fist as a melee weapon.

    Or maybe not. But I don't think that I would be mad if a player tried to smite their enemies with their fist instead of their sword.
    Last edited by zeek0; 2016-07-06 at 02:03 AM.

  15. - Top - End - #15
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Quote Originally Posted by zeek0 View Post
    As an interesting note, "Unarmed Strike" is listed as a weapon on the weapons table, under "Simple Melee Weapons". I think it would make sense to view your fist as a melee weapon.

    Or maybe not. But I don't think that I would be mad if a player tried to smite their enemies with their fist instead of their sword.
    In the errata, "Unarmed Strike" is removed from the weapons table.

    That said, I've been researching this quite a bit. It looks like (and several comments support on this board support this opinion - again, I still can't link) the intent was to separate "Spell Attacks" from "Melee Attacks", but "Melee Attacks" ended up being translated along the way as "Weapon Attacks" instead, which ends up causing all kinds of issues. In our local game, we've made the decision to run with that interpretation of the rules, which makes Unarmed Strike perfectly usable with Stunning Strike. After all, it doesn't seem to jive with the feel of the class that that stresses unarmed attacks and then doesn't allow one of the primary features with unarmed attacks. It also bypasses some of the crazy wording issues involved when "magical weapon attacks" bypass resistance when considering Monks past 6th level.

  16. - Top - End - #16
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Jul 2016

    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    I've been rethinking this a little, using the feedback from zeek0 and Amniorath, along with other research, to frame my thinking. What do you think about this?

    Spoiler: Way of the Undulating Dragon (with stances)
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    Monastic Tradition – Way of the Undulating Dragon


    Bonus Proficiencies
    When you learn the Way of the Undulating Dragon at 3rd level, you gain proficiency with the Acrobatics and Performance skills. If you make a check using these skills while using a spear or a quarterstaff, double your proficiency bonus for these skills.

    Undulating Dragon Stances
    Also at 3rd level, you learn to enter a number of stances that rely on the use of spears and quarterstaffs along with constant movement. The Way of the Undulating Dragon teaches three stances. While wielding a spear or a quarterstaff in both hands (benefitting from the Versatile quality), you may use a bonus action and spend 1 Ki point to enter one of these stances. If you do not move at least 10 feet on your turn or if at any point you do not wield a spear or a quarterstaff with both hands, you exit the stance immediately. During your turn if you are in a stance, you may use a bonus action to switch to another stance.

    While you are in any of these stances, you grant the Reach quality to spears and quarterstaffs. You may use spears or quarterstaffs rather than unarmed attacks when using Martial Arts to make an attack using a bonus action or when using Flurry of Blows. These attacks use your Martial Arts damage die rather than the weapon’s damage die unless something specifically says otherwise.

    Aggressive Stance
    You take a stance that focuses on making more effective attacks against your enemies. While in this stance, you use your weapon’s damage die for the attacks granted by your Flurry of Blows rather than your Martial Arts damage die.

    Defensive Stance
    You take a stance that focuses on deflecting attacks directed at you. If you have spent at least 1 Ki during your turn, your Armor Class increases by 1 until your next turn. While you are in this stance, if did not spend Ki for any other reason on your turn, you may spend 1 Ki as a reaction when you are targeted by an attack to receive this benefit.

    Controlling Stance
    You take a stance that focuses on controlling your enemies on the battlefield. When you hit an enemy with an attack made using your Flurry of Blows, you may choose to impose one of the following effects on the target:
    • If it is using a weapon, it must make a Dexterity saving throw or be disarmed. If disarmed, its weapon falls to its feet.
    • It must make a Dexterity saving throw or be knocked prone.
    • If it is one Size category larger than you or smaller, it must make a Strength saving throw. If it fails, you can force it to move to any unoccupied space within 5 feet of where it is currently standing.

    Advanced Stances
    At 6th level, you have advanced your understanding of the Way of the Undulating Dragon. Your stances offer you more potent abilities.

    Aggressive Stance
    One attack you make deals extra damage equal to your Martial Arts damage die once per turn.

    Defensive Stance
    You can use your reaction to deflect a strike when you are hit by a melee attack. When you do so, the damage you take from the attack is reduced by 1d10 + your Dexterity modifier + your monk level. If you reduce the damage to 0, you can spend 1 Ki point to make a weapon attack against the attacker.

    Controlling Stance
    You can use your reaction to redirect an enemy’s weapons attack when it misses you. You can spend 1 Ki point to cause a missed weapon attack to target another enemy of your choice within reach of the original attack.

    Powerful Kata
    At 11th level, if you make a successful Performance check which showcases one of the stances learned though the Way of the Undulating Dragon, you may choose a benefit based on the stance that you showcased. When you use this feature, you may choose a number of targets to affect. Once you have affected a number of targets equal to your Monk level, you cannot use this feature again until you complete a long rest.

    Aggressive Stance
    You have advantage with Intimidation checks against the target for one hour following the performance.

    Defensive Stance
    The target has Disadvantage on its next attack against you, so long as the attack is made within the next hour.

    Controlling Stance
    You have advantage with Persuasion checks against the target for one hour following the performance.

    Disabling Strike
    At 17th level, you have learned to use your Ki to keep an enemy reeling. If you hit an enemy that is currently stunned from your Stunning Strike with a spear or a quarterstaff, you can spend a bonus action and 1 Ki point to extend the duration of the Stunning Strike for an extra round. Once an enemy has been affected by this ability three times, you cannot affect it again until you successfully affect it with Stunning Strike again.


    The thinking here is that you won't be gaining a lot of the offensive, defensive, and controlling aspects of the tradition at the same time. Reach and movement remain the focus from the beginning. The movement may seem superfluous, but I feel like it's part and parcel of the total package. The skill proficiencies seem like good additions that serve to make the tradition seem less munchkin-y.

    Making the 3rd level abilities rely specifically on Ki expenditure seems to stay in-line with the other Traditions.

    6th level abilities allow for advancement while sticking to my original vision. It also allows me to separate the counterattack and the redirect.

    Again, 11th level doesn't offer anything that is overly useful in combat.

    17th level stays mostly the same, but with what I feel is better wording.

    At no point am I completely sold on Aggressive Stance. If I go this way, I want an Aggressive Stance, but nothing that I've come up with so far is really satisfying. I'm not fluent in the math-fu that goes into balancing damage potential, but nothing I've presented seems to throw anything out of balance except at very low levels. Once Fighters and Barbarians gain access to some of their 5th level things, they seem to clearly out-damage this Tradition, even in the Aggressive Stance.

    I'm really liking this option as opposed to the original, but I may be biased (because of course I am). Again, feedback appreciated. If I don't hear anything in the next couple of days, I'll go ahead and replace the previous iteration.

  17. - Top - End - #17
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

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    Feb 2012

    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    It is better but currently Aggressive stance offers no benefit at level 3 as you already grant the use of your spear or quarterstaff. The only reason why other monks are stuck with a d4 is because they must use unarmed strikes for their Martial Arts bonus attack.

  18. - Top - End - #18
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    MonkGuy

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    Jul 2016

    Default Re: AngryJesusMan Monastic Tradition - Way of the Undulating Dragon

    Original post edited. I highlighted certain parts with underlines and italics to try to bring attention to them. Specifically, the bonus provided for being in any stance and the difference between the baseline extra attack damage for any stance and the damage for the Aggressive Stance.

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