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  1. - Top - End - #991
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    WolfInSheepsClothing

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I don’t disagree with your larger point at all, but I took that quote to be a reference to the basic Monster Manuals, not the more obscure ‘expansion’ splatbooks like Sandstorm, Fiend Folio, etc. He might not even be referring to the Monster Manual II, III, IV, etc.
    Agreed, the comment pretty clearly refers "books titled Monster Manual" (or the equivalent "core" book, in editions that predate the AD&D structure).
    Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?

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  2. - Top - End - #992
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by 5a Violista View Post
    I personally think something not "iconic" is more likely than something "iconic" (for given values of "iconic"). This is because I feel something iconic that everybody has heard about and everybody knows won't have as much impact as a more obscure and powerful-looking thing. (For example, imagine the reveal of a dragon vs the reveal of a Tarrasque (which is still iconic but less so than a dragon). For the average reader, "Oh, it's just another dragon, lots of stories have dragons in them, I read a book with a dragon in it recently" has less dramatic impact compared to "What's that? It's some kind of French T-rex thing sent by evil whatevs to punish nature, wow Xykon has one of those under his control?". Probably not the best example, but it somewhat reveals part of my thought process.)
    I really like this line of though.

    I think MitD will be recognizable, as in recognizable by a reasonably large group, not just those few that played that specific adventure or specific DnD worldbook. As in, it probably won't be a Whateversaurus Imperator, even if such creature existed in some Monster Compendium about which Rich has knowledge. Remember, it's a story, not a guessing competition, after all. The choise itself was probably made in the lines of "what is cool and serves the storie's purpose?"

    On the other hand, I don't think it would be a super popular monster, like a dragon or a giant (), because it would be like "oh, another one of those..."
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  3. - Top - End - #993
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Emanick View Post
    I don’t disagree with your larger point at all, but I took that quote to be a reference to the basic Monster Manuals, not the more obscure ‘expansion’ splatbooks like Sandstorm, Fiend Folio, etc. He might not even be referring to the Monster Manual II, III, IV, etc.
    At first, however, he does say:

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    I have every edition of D&D monster book in either hardcopy or PDF available
    Which seems a little broader than just the Monster Manuals.


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  4. - Top - End - #994
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by D.One View Post
    Remember, it's a story, not a guessing competition, after all.
    No, it is both. More importantly, it is a story that does not require the readership to know what this guy's species is, so as I have said ummpteen times, there is no reason to think that the story will need the readership to know what MitD's species is.

    We know who MitD is as a character. When the reveal comes, a regular reader will know more about MitD based on how his body is drawn, but the story will NOT need the readership to know his species.

    Grey Wolf
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    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  5. - Top - End - #995
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    No, it is both. More importantly, it is a story that does not require the readership to know what this guy's species is
    *blinks* Is that a joke? Because it's not only a big plot point, it influenced the whole ending of that book, and the whole next book that Malak was a Vampire. And Durkon was a Dwarf.

    Haley and Elan being Humans was less important overall, but still pretty important, and V being an elf has been the subject of more than a few jokes.
    "Besides, you know the saying: Kill one, and you are a murderer. Kill millions, and you are a conqueror. Kill them all, and you are a god." -- Fishman

  6. - Top - End - #996
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    *blinks* Is that a joke? Because it's not only a big plot point, it influenced the whole ending of that book, and the whole next book that Malak was a Vampire. And Durkon was a Dwarf.
    "Vampire" is not a species. Malack being a lizardman or a Youan-ti (sp?) or something else was endlessly debated in the forums for pretty much the entirety of Malack's run, and it never made one bit of difference to the plot. The assertion that "knowing what MitD's species is will be required for the reader to follow the story" is simply, nonesense.

    Yes, some character's species are very relevant: dwarves and black dragons, the first due to Loki's wager, the second due to V's spell. But extrapolating from two instances to "therefore, every character's species is so crucial that we must be able to recognise the species on sight" is, way, way, way overreading those two specific cases.

    Grey Wolf
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    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  7. - Top - End - #997
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    *blinks* Is that a joke? Because it's not only a big plot point, it influenced the whole ending of that book, and the whole next book that Malak was a Vampire.
    Species, not template.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    The assertion that "knowing what MitD's species is will be required for the reader to follow the story" is simply, nonesense.
    I may have missed it, but had anyone made such an assertion?
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  8. - Top - End - #998
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Peelee View Post
    I may have missed it, but had anyone made such an assertion?
    Most people insisting that MitD must be an iconic creature has made variants of that assertion. Littlebum, for example, based his argument on the disappointment of the readership if they couldn't recognise MitD's species, based on the fact that recognising Thor was necessary to follow the plot (specifically, Durkon's beliefs as derived from worshiping a recognisable Deity).

    But fine, let amend that to "knowing what MitD's species is will be required for the reader to enjoy the reveal".

    Edit: and because I can predict the answer to this being "we didn't need to know what type of lizard he was because we know what a vampire can do", the same will be true for MitD: even if we do not know what his species is, we know what that species can do: punch really hard even when not trying to, teleport people, cause earthquakes with a mere stomp, etc.

    GW
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2017-11-17 at 11:59 AM.
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    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  9. - Top - End - #999
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by The MunchKING View Post
    *blinks* Is that a joke? Because it's not only a big plot point, it influenced the whole ending of that book, and the whole next book that Malak was a Vampire. And Durkon was a Dwarf.

    Haley and Elan being Humans was less important overall, but still pretty important, and V being an elf has been the subject of more than a few jokes.
    First of all, barring hints it wasn't actually spelled out "he's a vampire!" until it became important.

    Secondly, I'm guessing GW was referring to whatever species of LizardFolk Malack happened to be*, which was lampshaded in-comic as being an albino one. Given that I think a better example would be it wasn't immediately stated that the one bounty hunter was a half-dragon, half-ogre. It wasn't necessary to specify to the reader until it was a joke; they/we could immediately see it was large, strong, had wings and was not the brains of the operation - all the necessary points for the story being told. In fact his actual species only mattered for the joke and without that could have been left out entirely without changing a thing story-wise.

    * Which he pretty much stated as I was typing, but I'm leaving this for the counter-example of the bounty hunter whose name escapes me.
    Last edited by Throknor; 2017-11-17 at 11:59 AM.

  10. - Top - End - #1000
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Your guess is as good as mine, but in my experience, every scene seems to be interpreted as a clue by someone, but in the aggregate, no person ever sees clues in every scene.
    Hehe... so true. For example, I think the "Astral Plane" mention is completely irrelevant for the puzzle, but some other posters seem to find it important.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    First Post refresh: Added Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Half-Green-Dragon Young Adult Green Dragon to 3d (but fair warning: if I need space in that post, it'll be the first one to go)
    Would it help if I edited the comment block down to shorter? Can I trade the space saved for notes about Ygramul? Those actually seem relevant, what with people talking about whether we need a Wish ability, or a heavily house-ruled Teleport ability, or a Greater Teleport ability with Trace Teleport and a stray Dimension Anchor, when I think Ygramul shows there's another possibility that posters might want to pay attention to.

    By the way, do I understand correctly that we no longer have the list of all strips where the MitD appears in the thread because nobody is willing to maintain it?
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2017-11-17 at 12:26 PM.

  11. - Top - End - #1001
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Would it help if I edited the comment block down to shorter?
    Sure (PM me with the shorter version), but to be absolutely clear: I'm not short on space right now, not since I gave the list of proposals its own post, so you needn't fret about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Can I trade the space saved for notes about Ygramul?
    You mean, a proper pros-cons spoiler? No, It's in the copyright section, and they don't get expanded notes. The only reason Snorlax gets them is because it used to be in the FBS precursor, and so I copied them over (ETA: and if pressed, I'll delete them before I add any to others).

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    By the way, do I understand correctly that we no longer have the list of all strips where the MitD appears in the thread because nobody is willing to maintain it?
    We don't have it because the mods were clear that it belongs to Savannah, and she's been AWOL for two threads. If someone wanted to take over the job, they'd need to start from scratch, or get her permission to copy her post.

    Grey Wolf
    Last edited by Grey_Wolf_c; 2017-11-17 at 12:34 PM.
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    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  12. - Top - End - #1002
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Hehe... so true. For example, I think the "Astral Plane" mention is completely irrelevant for the puzzle, but some other posters seem to find it important.
    Well, it could mean the creature has Knowledge (planes), at least on its skillset. So its not something to discard it. The only reason in story for the creature to talk about the plane is to give us a clue.

  13. - Top - End - #1003
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Hehe... so true. For example, I think the "Astral Plane" mention is completely irrelevant for the puzzle, but some other posters seem to find it important.
    Similarly, I seem to be the only one who believes that "shouldn't be able to speak Common" and "doesn't normally live in the jungle" are important clues.
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  14. - Top - End - #1004
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    By the way, do I understand correctly that we no longer have the list of all strips where the MitD appears in the thread because nobody is willing to maintain it?
    We don't have it because the mods were clear that it belongs to Savannah, and she's been AWOL for two threads. If someone wanted to take over the job, they'd need to start from scratch, or get her permission to copy her post.
    Tell you what, though. knag just brought to my attention that a wiki has every character appearance by strip. Depending on how far my sanity level goes into the negatives, I may take a stab at resurrecting the idea. I always thought it might be nice if we could list what major characters appeared in the same strips (so as to make it easier to find "the strip where Haley was there" and the like). I can't take the descriptions that Savannah added, but maybe I can just take the ones from the summary thread in their stead.

    GW
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    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  15. - Top - End - #1005
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    Tell you what, though. knag just brought to my attention that a wiki has every character appearance by strip. Depending on how far my sanity level goes into the negatives, I may take a stab at resurrecting the idea. I always thought it might be nice if we could list what major characters appeared in the same strips (so as to make it easier to find "the strip where Haley was there" and the like). I can't take the descriptions that Savannah added, but maybe I can just take the ones from the summary thread in their stead.

    GW
    What's the deal with using Savannah's stuff? I understand wanting to respect her contributions, but it seems odd that if someone is gone for over a year on the forums we still aren't allowed to continue their work.

    Has it been suggested that we quote her work (therefore giving her credit), and then add on to it?
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  16. - Top - End - #1006
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    What's the deal with using Savannah's stuff? I understand wanting to respect her contributions, but it seems odd that if someone is gone for over a year on the forums we still aren't allowed to continue their work.

    Has it been suggested that we quote her work (therefore giving her credit), and then add on to it?
    When she started it, I assumed she would fall under curator rules. She objected, we consulted the mods (she wasn't one at the time, lets be perfectly clear) and the mods said that the contents of the post were hers and hers alone - i.e. they were not subject to the curator rules, which meant no amount of opposition to her choices could be overridden. For all intents and purposes, the contents of her post are hers and she publicly refused to grant control to anyone else (indeed, that is what took us to the mods in the first place). I happen to respect said declaration even if I do not agree with it. Now, I take this to mean that the factual information of which pages MitD has been in are not under consideration but everything else - formatting, descriptions, etc. is hers.

    As with any other rule or mod declaration, I prefer to err on the side of caution.

    Grey Wolf
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    There is a world of imagination
    Deep in the corners of your mind
    Where reality is an intruder
    And myth and legend thrive
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
    Ceterum autem censeo Hilgya malefica est

  17. - Top - End - #1007
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    I hate when people feel the need to "defend their own turf" instead of just accepting the help of others. What was gained? Ugh.

    Anyway, looking at it, it looks good but not great. I'll bet we could do a better job. Is anyone interested in starting this up? If not, I could give it a go. I have a decent amount of free time, so it would go smoothly, but not blazingly fast.

    To avoid getting on anyone's bad side, I suggest that whoever is in charge doesn't even look at her post, and just uses the aforementioned wiki page as well as contributions from people on here.

    That being said, after this project is completed (to avoid a conflict of interest) it may be a good idea to suggest to the mods a "fair use" policy: that if a user is absent from the forums for a set period of time, their contributions can be used by all.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2017-11-17 at 04:29 PM.
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  18. - Top - End - #1008
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    I do not claim any ownership of anything in this post, all is a derivative work of works by Rich Burlew and the contributors to the wiki.

    Formatting suggestions are welcome. I have gone with each strip giving the number, then the title and a link, then a brief description of what the MitD is doing.

    I note that B_Jonas appears to also be working on this. I'm fine with someone else taking any or all of the below. I'm also fine with adding stuff myself. In the long run redundant lists is, well, redundant. So I trust eventually one of us will stop.

    Last edited by Doug Lampert; 2017-11-17 at 11:39 PM.

  19. - Top - End - #1009
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Each strip should (IMHO) have 2 things: a summary (which you've already started) and a "potential clues" column. This way we don't lose track of what's really important in all this, and we might even find some things we've missed.

    Like:

    0299: A Calling, Missed. The MitD wants to help zombifying monsters.
    • Clue: Cannot cast Cleric spells, cannot Raise Dead


    Now we just need to make a table.
    Last edited by littlebum2002; 2017-11-17 at 06:04 PM.
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  20. - Top - End - #1010
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Each strip should (IMHO) have 2 things: a summary (which you've already started) and a "potential clues" column. This way we don't lose track of what's really important in all this, and we might even find some things we've missed.

    Like:

    0299: A Calling, Missed. The MitD wants to help zombifying monsters.
    • Clue: Cannot cast Cleric spells, cannot Raise Dead


    Now we just need to make a table.
    That looks reasonable. I'll add that one.

  21. - Top - End - #1011
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    I see. Well, no problem, I'll just start a new list. Luckily the MitD doesn't appear too often. I might need some of your help to find what I missed, or to maintain this in the future. In general, such a list seems an important enough resource for this strip, I kept referencing Savannah's, but his list has some problems, so it won't hurt to replace it. I've only done part of the list now, but will try to do the rest later.

    Random thought while I was writing that. Some of you have suggested that the MitD thinks "gate" only means a magical Gate between planes. In #195, the MitD might be thinking the only useful books are magical ones.

    -----

    Appearances of the MitD
    • #23: Xykon says MitD is his secret weapon, will reveal him when the time is right.
    • #37: Xykon and MitD watch Roy set off the booby-trapped door.
    • #47: More crystal ball watching.
    • #82: Redcloak tells MitD off for leaving mess in kitchen. More crystal ball watching. MitD is in magical darkness.
    • #96: MitD can't see gate.
    • #97: MitD joins Redcloak in evil laugh.
    • #103: Xykon practices big reveal of MitD. Xykon is not satisfied, MitD listing spices to cook OotS with isn't scary enough.
    • #106: Doesn't see gate again.
    • #109, #110, #113: Nothing notable.
    • #114: Xykon prepares to reveal MitD, gets interrupted. MitD is anxious.
    • #117: MitD wants to get revealed, Redcloak and Xykon stops him.
    • #120: Nothing notable.
    • #147: MitD asks to hold Xykon's phylactery. MitD had broken all his toys. MitD gets fanged Hello Kitty umbrella.
    • #148: Nothing notable.
    • #149: MitD does exposition about the initiation rituals.
    • #190: MitD teaches Redcloak evil leadership.
    • #191: MitD doesn't want to go into abandoned castle. Xykon tells MitD should be scary and powerful.
    • #192: Nothing notable.
    • #194: MitD asks lantern archons to light him up.
    • #195: MitD asks why Serini's diary is useful, knows about magical books.
    • #196: MitD knows about Dorukan. Doesn't know about gates.
    • #299: MitD wants to be a valuable member. Redcloak says he can't help in making zombies.
    • #331: Still confused about gate.
    • #368: “Sometimes I eat to fill the loneliness.”
    • #369, #371: Nothing notable.
    • #373: Miko meets MitD.
    • #374: MitD has to stop Miko. Feels Miko's full attack as only tickles. Plays “Who Can Hit the Lightest”, hits Miko and his far through the wall, but they survive.
    • #375: MitD finds Miko's purse with letter from High Priest of Thor to Durkon, paper cuts his tongue.
    • #414: Nothing notable.
    • #415: MitD crystal ball watching on Miko. Confused about gate.
    • #422: MitD confused about Redcloak chewing out on decoy Xykon.
    • #426: MitD confused about three Xykons.
    • #428: Nothing.
    • #431: MitD confused about four Xykons. Redcloak explains the decoy strategy to him. MitD still doesn't understand.
    • #447: Nothing notable.
    • #451: MitD grumbles.
    • #463: MitD plays tea party with toy green dragon. Paralyzed O-Chul arrives.
    • #474: Still tea party, now with dead Roy too.
    • #475: Haley and Durkon wants to retrieve Roy's body. MitD doesn't allow, shouts “Stop!” As alternate plan, Haley offers stew in exchange for Roy. Flashback to MitD eating moldy cheesburger.
    • #476: MitD enjoys Belkar's half-cooked vulture stew. As Haley and Belkar starts to leave, MitD hears they're the Order of the Stick, who he's supposed to devour.
    • #477: MitD thinks about whether he should eat Haley and Belkar without Xykon introducing him first. Doesn't seem to notice Belkar's attack. Haley and Belkar escape while he's still thinking. MitD stomps after demon roach's advice, causes huge cracks in ground. “Wow! I didn't know I could do that!” Belkar lets O-Chul go, O-Chul falls back to MitD. MitD is “really tired all of a sudden. And still hungry.”
    • #484: MitD carries the paralyzed O-Chul.
    • TODO: continue from strip #541 onwards
    • TODO: Start of Darkness


    -----

    Update:
    Quote Originally Posted by littlebum2002 View Post
    Each strip should (IMHO) have 2 things: a summary (which you've already started) and a "potential clues" column. This way we don't lose track of what's really important in all this, and we might even find some things we've missed.

    Like:

    0299: A Calling, Missed. The MitD wants to help zombifying monsters.
    • Clue: Cannot cast Cleric spells, cannot Raise Dead


    Now we just need to make a table.
    No! Weren't you listening? We can't agree about what's a clue and what isn't, and “every scene seems to be interpreted as a clue by someone”, so that format would just lead to more arguments.

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey_Wolf_c View Post
    [On adding more details about Ygramul.] You mean, a proper pros-cons spoiler? No, It's in the copyright section, and they don't get expanded notes. The only reason Snorlax gets them is because it used to be in the FBS precursor, and so I copied them over (ETA: and if pressed, I'll delete them before I add any to others).
    Pity. But I accept that of course, since you're maintaining the first posts. Thanks for the explanation.

    GW: would adding a note in 1c work then? Like, a note about how if the MitD gave O-Chul and Vaarsuvius the ability to greater teleport, then they'd know where they want to go, and they wouldn't take the MitD with them. The note wouldn't have to mention Ygramul, or how it could deliver the touch attack, or the deadly poison.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2017-11-17 at 06:30 PM.

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by b_jonas View Post
    Update:No! Weren't you listening? We can't agree about what's a clue and what isn't, and “every scene seems to be interpreted as a clue by someone”, so that format would just lead to more arguments.
    However, to argue the other side: if we know what other people interpret as clues, we can more completely explain why we don't count that as a clue, but instead as something else/coincidence/a non-clue, and thus be more confident in our guesses.
    Last edited by 5a Violista; 2017-11-17 at 07:51 PM.
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Which will result in this thread becoming a scene of constant argument, as one person says (e.g.) "That scene says he can't animate the dead!" and another says, "That scene says he thinks he should be able to animate the dead, clearly it's a racial ability he doesn't yet have!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    As much as it would be nice to be able to put clues in the list, it’s probably for the best if we just have summaries and let people draw their own conclusions. Unless we want to put in every possible interpretation, if we’re up for that.

    Also, it’s too bad that we can’t use Savannah’s work. I wonder where she’s been the last year and half. Regardless, the work that we have so far looks pretty good! Would it be feasible to put it in a table of some sort? (I like tables)


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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    So you think its MORE likely that Rich, having approximately two identifying features of the MITD at the time (its relative size and its eyes), decided to pick a creature that did not possess one of those features for the sake of a group of scenes he had not yet thought up instead of, say, picking a different monster? I highly doubt its a template stack, but youre coming across as just completely ignoring this fairly serious point against the Protean.

    Also, for the template stack competition, make sure that you aren't using any combination of templates that has a net overall increase in size, because the MITD is smaller than a normal whatever it is would be.
    Well, you've convinced me. Crusher, could you please amend my guess to ANB>Carbosilicate Amorph?
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    So you think its MORE likely that Rich, having approximately two identifying features of the MITD at the time (its relative size and its eyes), decided to pick a creature that did not possess one of those features for the sake of a group of scenes he had not yet thought up instead of, say, picking a different monster? I highly doubt its a template stack, but youre coming across as just completely ignoring this fairly serious point against the Protean.
    I think it's likely he chose the monster he wanted to use for the story, whatever it is, irrespective of the original art design, which was done at a time when he had no intent of ever revealing the monster.

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Doug Lampert: thank you for that list, it shows that I have missed one strip from the part of the comics that I have checked.

    Quote Originally Posted by 5a Violista View Post
    However, to argue the other side: if we know what other people interpret as clues, we can more completely explain why we don't count that as a clue, but instead as something else/coincidence/a non-clue, and thus be more confident in our guesses.
    Yes, and those interpretations are already collected and mentioned in the topical first posts that Grey_Wolf maintains. But I'd like a terse and mostly objective list of appearances of the MitD, and listing clues inline would be distracting there. If you want to compile a list and clues together, feel free to, but I don't think that'd be useful as a reference.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jaxzan Proditor View Post
    Also, it’s too bad that we can’t use Savannah’s work. I wonder where she’s been the last year and half. Regardless, the work that we have so far looks pretty good! Would it be feasible to put it in a table of some sort? (I like tables)
    Like I said, it's no big problem. There aren't too many appearances of the MitD, so I'll be able to compile an almost full list. I might need your help for the very few book-only bonus scenes. Though I have bought the two big prequels, so I will be able to write the list for Start of Darkness, which has the MitD in a quite important role, I haven't bought the other books yet.
    Last edited by b_jonas; 2017-11-18 at 06:04 AM.

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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    That reminds me: the one appearance of the MitD in Snips, Snails, and Dragon Tales:
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    In the intro to Edition Wars, featuring the Order vs their 4th Edition counterparts, there's a single panel with this conversation:

    Sir -- your necromantic aura! You have to turn it off!
    My necro-what now?
    I don't even know if I'm affected by that. Have I even been updated?

    The implication is that the MitD exists as a statted-up monster somewhere.


    For what it's worth: scenes like 195 and 703 show the Monster is literate.
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Ruck View Post
    I think it's likely he chose the monster he wanted to use for the story, whatever it is, irrespective of the original art design, which was done at a time when he had no intent of ever revealing the monster.
    So you mentioned a year ago. I still find the argument that Rich would chose a creature that doesn't meet one of the two known physical characteristics of the MITD when plotting out the story to be silly.
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    Default Re: MitD X: If I told you, you wouldn't believe me

    Quote Originally Posted by Keltest View Post
    So you mentioned a year ago. I still find the argument that Rich would chose a creature that doesn't meet one of the two known physical characteristics of the MITD when plotting out the story to be silly.
    I'm going to have to assume that you mean the protean with that. In which case, as I have said multiple times, that is not true. The protean can retain a face for extended periods of time. If Rich decided a protean fit the bill for what he needed MitD to do and be, he would have a way to keep his iconic look by RAW.

    You may not like the protean, and you may not like the way Rich could justify him having two eyes for the run of the comic while also explaining why he comes across as lazy. But you not liking it doesn't make it silly or impossible or any of the adjectives you so casually throw around as if it was a fait accompli.

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    But really, the important lesson here is this: Rather than making assumptions that don't fit with the text and then complaining about the text being wrong, why not just choose different assumptions that DO fit with the text?
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