Advice on roleplaying as the defendant in a trial

[Madokar]

Okay, so I need some pointers, because I'm in new territory. My half-orc paladin of Iomedae was arrested by the church of Abadar on trumped up charges of fraud. They say that since I didn't go through them when I started building my temple of Iomedae, I broke the law. But my purchase of the land was legal. They say I broke the law when I paid an additional sum to have to the construction crew speed up the actual construction with magic. They're calling it a bribe.

But then, I was racially profiled and thrown into solitary, because I matched an extremely vague description of a terrorist that's been attacking the city. A terrorist I have worked towards apprehending alongside the town guard. I have his skin tone, to be exact. That, and due to fey magic, I'm budding wings out of my back.

So... I'm at loggerheads over what to do. I mean, I am still a paladin. I haven't lost my abilities. I haven't committed the crimes they accuse me of. But when they arrested me for terrorism charges, I saw one of the commanding paladin pull a very smug and, dare I say, malicious look across his face.

I have another thread detailing what my relationship is with the Temple of Abadar, but I can't post it here. That's because I haven't been a member of this site for even a week. And I haven't reached the number of posts necessary to post links yet.

[Freemason Than]

They say that since I didn't go through them when I started building my temple of Iomedae, I broke the law. But my purchase of the land was legal. They say I broke the law when I paid an additional sum to have to the construction crew speed up the actual construction with magic. They're calling it a bribe.

I can actually see the authorities' point here. Ownership of the land and what you can do with it are two different things.
Just because it's your land doesn't mean you can build whatever you want on it.

So the question is:
does the local law state that, if you have any temple construction business, you should run it by the Abadarians first?
Or are they just making that up out of a sense of entitlement?


Now, if they start bringing in false witnesses that claim they overheard you 'bribing' the construction crew, or any other fake reports that might link you to the terrorist you resemble, you should go full Phoenix Wright on them.

[TheYell]

Cooperate with the authorities. Point out that the terrorist is still free to strike and if he does while you are locked up it will show you are innocent. accept this as a test of your paladin commitment. if you bust out against racist guards you could fall as a paladin because that is chaotic behavior. whos talking to you while in prison? be careful of being tempted to do anything unlawful.

[Madokar]

Spoiler: A

Show

I can actually see the authorities' point here. Ownership of the land and what you can do with it are two different things.
Just because it's your land doesn't mean you can build whatever you want on it.

So the question is:
does the local law state that, if you have any temple construction business, you should run it by the Abadarians first?
Or are they just making that up out of a sense of entitlement?


Now, if they start bringing in false witnesses that claim they overheard you 'bribing' the construction crew, or any other fake reports that might link you to the terrorist you resemble, you should go full Phoenix Wright on them.

We were clear in our intent from the beginning to build a temple. We sought out the proper, legal channels in the city to purchase the plot of land and develop it. The Abadarans have made it clear that it's the act of paying EXTRA to speed up the contruction with magic that they view as a bribe. Which makes little to no sense.

Spoiler: B

Show

Cooperate with the authorities. Point out that the terrorist is still free to strike and if he does while you are locked up it will show you are innocent. accept this as a test of your paladin commitment. if you bust out against racist guards you could fall as a paladin because that is chaotic behavior. whos talking to you while in prison? be careful of being tempted to do anything unlawful.

Thing is, if word gets out that the Abadarans have captured the terrorist, then said terrorist is likely to lay low until I am executed. The Abadarans have made it clear that treason is a capital offense in this city.

As for potentially falling, my code clearly states that committing an EVIL act will cause me to fall. Not a Chaotic one. I can commit the occasional minor Chaotic act here and there if I remain solidly LG in alignment. My code does not allow evil to go unfought. If the law is broken, corrupt, or evil, I am not bound to follow it.

However, that is a worse case scenario. I planned to bring the message of Iomedae's valor and justice to this city. I can't do that if I become a wanted criminal for evading their warped laws. For now, I seek to play along with what they want. But if they abuse their authority, then I may have to consider more drastic options. I don't want it to come to that, though. Hence my post.

[Madokar]

So I just hit the magic number of posts to be able to post links.So here's a link to another thread I made that gives a better sense of context of the situation with the Abadaran church in this campaign.

[AlexandraNelsen]

What are the rest of the party playing? Not too sure about how your group usually works, but with my players their first instinct would be for everyone not in jail to commit an act of terrorism themselves to "prove" the terrorist isn't you.

Even if your group aren't quite the murder hobos mine tend towards, the key may be to have the rest of the party look into that super sketchy Paladin Commander.

The only other thing I could add that may be relevant is to ask whether Zone of Truth is used during trials where you are.

Edit: Basically, I'm thinking this will be a matter of sticking to the truth, resisting temptation, and waiting for your allies to help you out.

[Madokar]

What are the rest of the party playing? Not too sure about how your group usually works, but with my players their first instinct would be for everyone not in jail to commit an act of terrorism themselves to "prove" the terrorist isn't you.

Even if your group aren't quite the murder hobos mine tend towards, the key may be to have the rest of the party look into that super sketchy Paladin Commander.

The only other thing I could add that may be relevant is to ask whether Zone of Truth is used during trials where you are.

Edit: Basically, I'm thinking this will be a matter of sticking to the truth, resisting temptation, and waiting for your allies to help you out.

The rest of the party is looking into hiring the Pathfinder equivalent of Phoenix Wright. We had a temple of Sarenrae established in the city too, but the Abadarans shut it down. Cited "health code violations" on the basis there was an undead disease in the temple. Which is bunk, since no undead have ever been in the temple or their victims. Of course, they told all of this after the Abadarans waterboarded the party priest of Sarenrae with holy water.

So yeah... Our priest of Sarenrae was allowed to go free after that, but they detained me.

[veti]

So, apparently Abadar is a god of wealth?

Then it's possible that "paying someone an additional sum" is something they take an interest in. They might have added some weird laws to the city books about it. There may be issues of tax evasion or fraud that you're not aware of.

And it's more than likely that not only are some of the Abadarans on the take, but also that the church as a whole cares more about how much money they get, than exactly how they get it.

Seriously, your other thread explains that you set up your temple more or less explicitly as a rival to them? To root out suspected corruption? Well, what the hey did you expect to happen at that point, you thought organised crime was just gonna roll over and let you do your thing?

The rest of your party needs to either catch the real terrorist, or uncover absolutely conclusive evidence that he is (as I strongly suspect) not a real person at all, but a figure manufactured by some of the Abadarans specifically to discredit you. Meanwhile, does the city have any civil authorities that are independent of the Abadaran church? If so, I would see if you can get yourself transferred to their custody, because you don't want to Accidentally Cut Your Own Throat While Shaving one morning.

[Keltest]

Sounds to me like this is the time to get the neighbors involved. Presumably this city isn't in the middle of bum nowhere, right? There are trade partners and the like who would probably be rather concerned that the city's proper authorities are being subverted and/or corrupted? Get yourself out of jail (take the trial seriously if it seems legitimate, but don't be afraid to break out if its clear that the rule of law is not presiding) and then find some allies you can trust. Get agents on the ground who can run interference while you go and investigate whatever leads you have. Maybe the church is corrupt or maybe its just really dumb, but either way its an obstacle that needs removing.

[Madokar]

Spoiler: A

Show

So, apparently Abadar is a god of wealth?

Then it's possible that "paying someone an additional sum" is something they take an interest in. They might have added some weird laws to the city books about it. There may be issues of tax evasion or fraud that you're not aware of.

And it's more than likely that not only are some of the Abadarans on the take, but also that the church as a whole cares more about how much money they get, than exactly how they get it.

Seriously, your other thread explains that you set up your temple more or less explicitly as a rival to them? To root out suspected corruption? Well, what the hey did you expect to happen at that point, you thought organised crime was just gonna roll over and let you do your thing?

The rest of your party needs to either catch the real terrorist, or uncover absolutely conclusive evidence that he is (as I strongly suspect) not a real person at all, but a figure manufactured by some of the Abadarans specifically to discredit you. Meanwhile, does the city have any civil authorities that are independent of the Abadaran church? If so, I would see if you can get yourself transferred to their custody, because you don't want to Accidentally Cut Your Own Throat While Shaving one morning.

There might be some obscure law tacked on somewhere. If it's just that, then it's not something to lose sleep over.

I didn't seek to establish my temple so much as a rival as an alternative for the people. I wasn't going to outright condemn the Abadarans if there was a chance of diplomacy and spreading Iomedae's message through charity work and peacekeeping efforts. But the more heavyhanded the Abadarans act, the more I suspect this chapter to be a predominately LE faith, or corrupted to be as such. I have no proof of that, so I'm not making accusations... yet. If I can definitively prove their corruption, then it's another story. If it's just them being Lawful Stupid, I just have to suffer them for the time being.

There is the town guard. We've been mainly working with them since the behaviour of the Abadarans started to worry me. It hasn't gotten to the point where the guard has to decide their loyalties, but I'm hoping that they value justice more than order.

Spoiler: B

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Sounds to me like this is the time to get the neighbors involved. Presumably this city isn't in the middle of bum nowhere, right? There are trade partners and the like who would probably be rather concerned that the city's proper authorities are being subverted and/or corrupted? Get yourself out of jail (take the trial seriously if it seems legitimate, but don't be afraid to break out if its clear that the rule of law is not presiding) and then find some allies you can trust. Get agents on the ground who can run interference while you go and investigate whatever leads you have. Maybe the church is corrupt or maybe its just really dumb, but either way its an obstacle that needs removing.

Removing said obstacle was a point of us establishing our churches in the first place. Just a way to show the citizens of Halftown that there are other ways of life than the ones they have been accustomed to. If they so desire it. The idea was to just not have to deal with the Abadarans as much if we were able to build up our own forces to defend the city with. As it stands, we have some camaraderie with the temples of Desna and Erastil. But it's unknown if we have made enough of an impact with them to make those churches consider standing up to the Abadarans.

[AlexandraNelsen]

Sounds like you might need to prep for a jailbreak if the trial goes badly. I'd suggest "hoping for the best, planning for the worst". The Abadarans seem to me like they are almost the law themselves, and if they're on the take I can't imagine the judge(s)/jury isn't. So with that in mind, I'd say your current lawyer plan is the best place to start. Maybe have a distraction or two set up around town in case they're needed.

The only other thing that comes to mind is whether or not Zone of Truth will be used during the trial. If it is used, then either you'll be easily proven innocent by virtue of actually being innocent, or you'll have confirmation that the system is silly amounts of corrupt.

[Elvenoutrider]

Well you may have one other option - demand a trial by ordeal. This means that you are placed in a very difficult situation where you would need the aid of your god to survive. No sod would help someone who is guilty right? This existed in the real world for a time as a way for the church to quickly try and make an example of accused heretics. Demanding such a thing in the real world would be suicide though many rpgs take place in settings with direct interventionist Gods. Hell in pathfinder and D&D, a strong enough caster can gate to another plane and join them for tea or torture depending on your alignment.

A popular version of this would be a trial by combat where you or someone willing to stand for you fights the champion of your accuser. If there is a crooked paladin riding on his reputation attempting to convict you, he could be honor bound to fight you himself. In the process he could reveal that he no longer has access to paladin abilities thus outing himself as fallen.

[Madokar]

Sounds like you might need to prep for a jailbreak if the trial goes badly. I'd suggest "hoping for the best, planning for the worst". The Abadarans seem to me like they are almost the law themselves, and if they're on the take I can't imagine the judge(s)/jury isn't. So with that in mind, I'd say your current lawyer plan is the best place to start. Maybe have a distraction or two set up around town in case they're needed.

The only other thing that comes to mind is whether or not Zone of Truth will be used during the trial. If it is used, then either you'll be easily proven innocent by virtue of actually being innocent, or you'll have confirmation that the system is silly amounts of corrupt.

Hoping for Zone of Truth myself, but these people believe I'm the one who has fallen. More or less. They'll know that I'd have a decent Will Save, and a good chance to ignore the spell's effects. If they do allow it, I'll see if my GM will allow me to intentionally fail the save.

Well you may have one other option - demand a trial by ordeal. This means that you are placed in a very difficult situation where you would need the aid of your god to survive. No sod would help someone who is guilty right? This existed in the real world for a time as a way for the church to quickly try and make an example of accused heretics. Demanding such a thing in the real world would be suicide though many rpgs take place in settings with direct interventionist Gods. Hell in pathfinder and D&D, a strong enough caster can gate to another plane and join them for tea or torture depending on your alignment.

A popular version of this would be a trial by combat where you or someone willing to stand for you fights the champion of your accuser. If there is a crooked paladin riding on his reputation attempting to convict you, he could be honor bound to fight you himself. In the process he could reveal that he no longer has access to paladin abilities thus outing himself as fallen.

I think my goddess has already blessed me. I can't say for sure, but I think my paladin is starting a transformation into an angel. He has a orange/bronze skin tone, budding wings coming out of his back, and few abilities that are in line with high level angels. Namely: Regeneration 5, Resist Acid 15, and a racial bonus of +4 to overcome poisons. Not counting a +2 bonus to STR and CON.

However, the Abadarans think I'm turning into a dragon for some reason. Despite me not having any of the hallmarks of dragonkind manifesting in my body.

Of course, I got all those benefits after I died three times. Once to undead, twice in the home plane of the fey. But that's what happens when you're the only dedicated melee combatant in a party comprised almost entirely of spellcasters. The other party members got bonuses too, but they're tailored to their class or how the story has affected them.

[veti]

A popular version of this would be a trial by combat where you or someone willing to stand for you fights the champion of your accuser. If there is a crooked paladin riding on his reputation attempting to convict you, he could be honor bound to fight you himself. In the process he could reveal that he no longer has access to paladin abilities thus outing himself as fallen.

It would be rash to rely on that, however. It sounds like there's a healthy amount of homebrewing going on here, and you can't absolutely rely on a crooked paladin having lost their powers at all. Maybe they weren't ever a capital-p Paladin to begin with, but only a Fighter/Cleric - how would anyone else ever tell the difference?

[Madokar]

It would be rash to rely on that, however. It sounds like there's a healthy amount of homebrewing going on here, and you can't absolutely rely on a crooked paladin having lost their powers at all. Maybe they weren't ever a capital-p Paladin to begin with, but only a Fighter/Cleric - how would anyone else ever tell the difference?

The Gray Paladin Archetype released with Ultimate Intrigue muddles the issue further, as it allows Paladins to be LG, LN, and NG in exchange for reduced divine power.

[Sith_Happens]

If this society has really gotten as corrupt as you make it sound like it has then any legitimate self-respecting paladin has no obligation whatsoever to play along. You can sit around for a while if you want just to be on the safe side, but if it starts to look even a little too much like they're getting ready to rewrite the book just to be able to throw it at you then it's time for a jailbreak followed by a guerrilla campaign of truth, justice, and the Iomedean way.

[Madokar]

If this society has really gotten as corrupt as you make it sound like it has then any legitimate self-respecting paladin has no obligation whatsoever to play along. You can sit around for a while if you want just to be on the safe side, but if it starts to look even a little too much like they're getting ready to rewrite the book just to be able to throw it at you then it's time for a jailbreak followed by a guerrilla campaign of truth, justice, and the Iomedean way.

I agree. I don't want it to come to that, but I agree. If I can find a way to use their own laws against them to acquit myself, I'd find that the ideal solution. But if they twist the law to suit their agenda with no regard to justice, then they will force my hand.

[Herobizkit]

Sounds to me like the church of Abadar in your community is of the Lawful Evil type. They want 100% of the church income - they shut down a church of Sarenrae and now want to shut yours down, too.

Given that worshipers of Abadar are "Judges, merchants, lawyers, and aristocrats", I'd say you have little chance of defending yourself in this trial as it will clearly be an unfair one.

Would they accept a monthly tithe in exchange for rights to build a foreign church on "their" land? If not, your answer is clear - they oppose your faith and all others but Abadar. :)

Aside, I believe that"Real" courts would find testimony from Zone of Truth inadmissible as it is magical coercion (regardless of the outcome). Also, if there's a chance that ZoT condemns the plaintiff, they'll want it excluded anyway.

[Madokar]

Sounds to me like the church of Abadar in your community is of the Lawful Evil type. They want 100% of the church income - they shut down a church of Sarenrae and now want to shut yours down, too.

Given that worshipers of Abadar are "Judges, merchants, lawyers, and aristocrats", I'd say you have little chance of defending yourself in this trial as it will clearly be an unfair one.

Would they accept a monthly tithe in exchange for rights to build a foreign church on "their" land? If not, your answer is clear - they oppose your faith and all others but Abadar. :)

Aside, I believe that"Real" courts would find testimony from Zone of Truth inadmissible as it is magical coercion (regardless of the outcome). Also, if there's a chance that ZoT condemns the plaintiff, they'll want it excluded anyway.

They allow other faiths to operate in the city. But I'm pretty sure that those faiths operate under the Abadaran's thumb. They followed the Abadaran rules, and most likely pay tithes. Though I can't say that for certain, nobody's ever mentioned having to pay tithes to the Abadarans as part of establishing a church.

That's a solid argument for throwing ZoT out the window. They seem the type to care more about procedure than truth and justice. Though maybe I just might have to request ZoT as part of my trial. Perhaps it's something the defendant has to consent to.

[Madokar]

So I had a little brainstorm last night about something that could help me out. At some point, I should be able to take 20 on a Knowledge (religion) check, which would gain me a result of 31. When I do that, I can quote Abadar's holy texts, The Order of Numbers and The Manual of City Building. Here are some passages from Abadar's entry in the Inner Sea Gods sourcebook that might help me.

1) Abadarans are supposed to combat corruption and anarchy. They are supposed to understand both the letter and spirit of the law.

2) The priesthood is supposed to be responsible for encouraging civilization, trade and law by promoting co-operation and fairness. They are supposed to encourage being neighbourly as a means to enhance everybody's self-interest.

3) Their own service to the community may include pro-bono legal advice.

4) The local clergy are usually aligned with the local government but are forbidden to fight amongst themselves and often stand as a neutral faction during legitimate conflicts.

5) Abadar expects his followers to obey all meaningful laws, but not those which are ridiculous, unenforceable, or self-contradictory.

6) Abadar advocates cautious, careful consideration in all matters, and frowns on impulsiveness, believing that it leads to the encouragement of primitive needs.

It's my hope that someone, at some point, will hear these facts and reconsider what they have been doing in their service to Abadar. There are more facts in the sourcebook, but I think these six are most important.

[Sith_Happens]

Except that you can't normally retry a Knowledge check which means you can't take 20 on it.

[Madokar]

Huh. I never noticed that it was bard specific before. Mainly because I've never played those classes and wouldn't know the difference. And looking up the taking 10 rules, it's murky as mud. So I guess I'll just have to luck out if I want to use these facts. That, or I find some way to reference Abadar's holy books next session. You'd think that being under trial by Abadarans I would be allowed access to their laws and customs to defend myself.

Edit: Looking up the DC to know common mythology and tenets, I'd have to make a check of 15. I have a modifier of 11, so I have a solid 80% chance of making the check. Fingers crossed it works.

[Acanous]

I'm curious, do you play at a store or in a house? It might be relevant.

[Madokar]

I'm curious, do you play at a store or in a house? It might be relevant.

House. It's a homebrew campaign.

[Sith_Happens]

Edit: Looking up the DC to know common mythology and tenets, I'd have to make a check of 15. I have a modifier of 11, so I have a solid 80% chance of making the check. Fingers crossed it works.

You can (usually) take 10 on Knowledge checks so you're rocking a guaranteed 21 if you so choose.

[Madokar]

You can (usually) take 10 on Knowledge checks so you're rocking a guaranteed 21 if you so choose.

From my understanding, it's generally a house rule if taking 10 on Knowledge checks is allowed. So while I would definitely welcome it, I'm preparing myself for the possibility that I'll have to roll for it. If it comes to that, I still have good chances.

[Sith_Happens]

From my understanding, it's generally a house rule if taking 10 on Knowledge checks is allowed. So while I would definitely welcome it, I'm preparing myself for the possibility that I'll have to roll for it. If it comes to that, I still have good chances.

Quite the opposite: Knowledge contains no exception to the normal taking-10 rules, which apply to all skills unless otherwise specified (compare to Use Magic Device, which does expressly prohibit taking 10 in all cases).

[Madokar]

An update, for anybody interested:

So it turns out the magistrate is out to get my paladin. They held an auction for attorneys to have a chance to defend me. As it turns out, the winning bid belongs to a slimy SOB who told me to my face that he plans to prolong the trial as long as possible. Just to throw me under the wagon so he can write a tell-all book to further his career. One use of detect evil later, I promptly told him to go to the Abyss and requested to be sent back to solitary.

My first morning in the yard, a gang of half-orcs came to me, trying to sell me on a protection racket. I was polite and declined the offer. After the prisoners were called back inside, I was locked outside in the yard with two half-elf monks who told me there was still a bounty on my head for being "brought in dead". I was able to smite them and knock them out. The guards promptly threw me back in solitary, but not before I noticed them voicing their disappointment in the monks for "failing".

Next day, the same half-orc gang talked to me again. After some talking, it looks like I might have a chance to redeem them by leading by example. But for me to "join up", they want me to kill a pure-blooded orc prisoner that they claim to be a mass murder and skinner. My +19 to Sense Motive told me they were not telling the whole truth and I haven't agreed to it yet. But if I have to fight this orc, I think another use of Smite Evil and a charge of Divine Bond will be enough for me to knock the brute out. Hopefully, it will be enough to win over the half-orc gang.

On the other side of the walls, the Abadarans are trying to find evidence that our priest of Sarenrae is a lich, of all things. They shut down his temple to locate a phylactery that doesn't exist. On top of which, it turns out that mob mentality holds a lot of weight in Halftown. Which is why so many of our rights have been trampled. The town guard and the Abadarans say that they are doing the people's will, despite what they're doing being counterproductive to the citizenry's needs.

So our priest is trying to evacuate his flock from the city. The one good side is that the church of Desna has agreed to side with us, saying that the Abadarans are making no sense. The churches of Erastil and Torag might be on our side too, but we didn't have enough time in our session to speak with them. The Desnans think that if we can convince enough of the citizenry to side with us, we might get our convictions overturned. We managed to get a lawyer, but he was hired on to defend the Sarenites, not me. We might be able to take on both our cases, but the fact that he had to live under the radar in order to not be targeted by political enemies says a lot about how the law can work in this town.

[Herobizkit]

Sounds like your DM has thought this out and is being totally reasonable. Reading your summary, I actually felt like I was reading a summary of any TV-worthy prison show.

Good luck in your Church 'turf war'. ;) Keep the Half-Orcs on your side - you'll want a group of toughs for the long haul.

[Asmodean_]

If at all possible (I'm not too well acquainted with laws) try and get as many citizens to attend the trial as possible, then be as honourable and Good as possible (ZoT, etc.) so the public rally behind you. They'll no longer have the excuse of "we're just doing what the public wants".

And if your charisma's high enough, you can just defend yourself.