Trip / Disarm / Etc. on an AoO?

[Tyger]

Can you attempt a trip / disarm / sunder etc on an attack of opportunity? I can't find anything in RAW that says no, but at the same time, I can't find anything that says yes.

Can anyone point a confirmation one way or the other, out to me?

EDIT: Specifically looking for a RULE, FAQ ENTRY or ERRATA ENTRY that specifically speaks to this question. Really looking for an anwer per RAW here.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Generally, everything you can do with a normal attack (not a standard action) you can also do with an AoO.

[SolkaTruesilver]

IF you threaten. You can't make an AoO with a bow, or a spell. Nor can you trip if you haven't a trip-weapon, or you do not have Improved Unarmed Strike.

and if you don't have the proper feat, you still provoke an attack of opportunity fromthe one you try these things. which means he will get his AoO before yours.

[Tyger]

Thanks Solka, I do understand how AoOs work though. Though I would point out that there are times when you can make an AoO (perhaps tripping) without a weapon or the feat, but that's not the question here.

Lord_Silvanos, can you point to a rule, errata or FAQ entry that states this, or is this just your interpretation? I'm easy either way. I have a character that uses trip in one campaign, and DM in another with a character that wants to do this. So if it works by RAW, we're golden. If its doesn't, then that's fine as well. Just hoping to find an actual rule anywhere that decides the issue for us without having to go to Rule 0.

[horseboy]

Yeah, if you're oh, a 2nd level human fighter with a good dex, hold the line, improve trip, combat reflexes and combat expertise and equipped with a gusarme you can trip attack the entire first wave of the kobolds charging the party a square away from you.

[Tyger]

Yeah, if you're oh, a 2nd level human fighter with a good dex, hold the line, improve trip, combat reflexes and combat expertise and equipped with a gusarme you can trip attack the entire first wave of the kobolds charging the party a square away from you.

Again, can you point to a rule/errata or FAQ entry that specifically states this? Or is this interpretation?

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

You will see that an AoO is just described as a melee attack:

An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack...

Many special attacks are described the same way:

DISARM

As a melee attack,...

This is of course just my RAW interpretation (as always), but the FAQ happens to agree.

Can you make a trip attack (or other special attack) as an attack of opportunity?

Yes, as long as you make the trip attack (or other special attack) with a weapon with which you threaten the target. For example, unless you wield a weapon that allows you to make a trip attack, trip attacks are unarmed attacks; a character who doesn’t threaten while unarmed couldn’t make an unarmed trip attack as an attack of opportunity.

(There are other FAQ entries that explicitly or implicitly say the same thing)

[Jasdoif]

Again, can you point to a rule/errata or FAQ entry that specifically states this? Or is this interpretation?

Disarm, Sunder and Trip say right there in their descriptions that can you do them as a "melee attack".

Disarm

As a melee attack, you may attempt to disarm your opponent.

Sunder

You can use a melee attack with a slashing or bludgeoning weapon to strike a weapon or shield that your opponent is holding.

Trip

You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack.

So any time you can make a melee attack, you can use of them instead of a normal attack. This includes Attacks of Opportunity and iterative attacks, among other things.


EDIT: I should have known I would be ninja'd by the Popcorn Tyrant. But I have more (SRD) quotes, so ha!

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

...

Looks like you have a chance of actually tasting some popcorn today Jasdoif.

[FireSpark]

and if you don't have the proper feat, you still provoke an attack of opportunity fromthe one you try these things. which means he will get his AoO before yours.

Not true. While prone (and until you have completed your move action to stand up again) you don't threaten any spaces, and therefore attacking said person standing up, would not provoke any AoOs. (at least from the guy standing up)

[Tyger]

This is of course just my RAW interpretation (as always), but the FAQ happens to agree.

Originally Posted by FAQ
Can you make a trip attack (or other special attack) as an attack of opportunity?

Yes, as long as you make the trip attack (or other special attack) with a weapon with which you threaten the target. For example, unless you wield a weapon that allows you to make a trip attack, trip attacks are unarmed attacks; a character who doesn’t threaten while unarmed couldn’t make an unarmed trip attack as an attack of opportunity.

(There are other FAQ entries that explicitly or implicitly say the same thing)

Lord-Silvanos, you are, not to put it too lightly, quite simply, the man.

Thanks, that was exactly what I was looking for. Gracias, muchos gracias.

[Spiryt]

EDIT: I should have known I would be ninja'd by the Popcorn Tyrant.

OK, I can sponsor popcorn, if you explain what are you talking about

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Not true. While prone (and until you have completed your move action to stand up again) you don't threaten any spaces, and therefore attacking said person standing up, would not provoke any AoOs. (at least from the guy standing up)

There is a few things you could nitpick in SolkaTruesilver's post (like holding the charge of a spell to make an AoO with it or using a natural weapon to trip), but this part about being prone is not correct.

You still threaten, even while being prone. (you have -4 on attack rolls though)

[Jasdoif]

Here's a FAQ entry that covers them all.

Is sunder a special standard action or is it a melee attack variant? It has its own entry on the actions table, but the text describing it refers to it as a melee attack. Is sunder a melee attack only in the sense of hitting something with a melee weapon, or is sunder a true melee attack?

Sunder is a special kind of melee attack. If it were a special standard action, its description would say so (as the descriptive text for the Manyshot feat says).

If you make a full attack, and you have multiple attacks from a high base attack bonus, you can sunder more than once, or attack and sunder, or some other combination of attacking and sundering.

Sunder does indeed get its own entry in Table 8–2: Actions in Combat in the Player’s Handbook. It needs one because unlike a regular melee attack, sunder provokes an attack of opportunity (although not if you have the Improved Sunder feat).

You can also disarm, grapple, or trip as a melee attack (or attack of opportunity).

Looks like you have a chance of actually tasting some popcorn today Jasdoif.

Ooh ooh, do I get on the popcorn list?!

OK, I can sponsor popcorn, if you explain what are you talking about

While Lord_Silvanos' user title says "Bugbear in the Playground" and not "The Popcorn Tyrant, Floating Master of All Things Crunchy and Often Buttery (And Predominately RAW-legal)", I assure you that it's simply an administrative oversight.

[Lord Lorac Silvanos]

Tyger: Always glad if we can help (especially while ninja'ing )

Spiryt: Thanks for the popcorn. It will not be forgotten.

Ooh ooh, do I get on the popcorn list?!

We will see how it goes.
I was just ninja'ed in the Q&A thread again again again

[Tyger]

And after all that, there's the answer, straight from the PHB on page 141, note 7. Jeez... thanks guys.

Now, tangental question. If you trip someone with a reach weapon, say glaive or spiked chain, when then attempt to move from 10' to 5' away, and you are successful. Where do they land? In the square 10' away or the one next to you, i.e. 5'?

It would seem to me, based on the rules, that they would fall in the 10' square, as the AoO interrupts their movement from the 10 to the 5, so...

Damned rules. Always getting in the way of my sleep! :)

[Inyssius Tor]

Exactly. We had a pretty long discussion about this recently, but I'm sick of digging through the forums now.

[Tyger]

OK, then that's seriously messed up.

In other words, so long as the tripper manages to trip each round, the poor bloke trying to get close to him is screwed, i.e. will never successfully close the gap, and will die a horrible, and ignoble death. That's just cruel. Now I am starting to see why people don't like the spiked chain.

[Joltz]

Yes, AoOs resolve before the action that provoked them so they'd fall in the space 10' away.

I don't remember where it says that in the rules but I remember that one of the special effects of Robilar's Gambit is that the granted AoOs resolve after the action that provoked them instead of before.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

OK, then that's seriously messed up.

In other words, so long as the tripper manages to trip each round, the poor bloke trying to get close to him is screwed, i.e. will never successfully close the gap, and will die a horrible, and ignoble death. That's just cruel. Now I am starting to see why people don't like the spiked chain.

Not really. The AoO provoked when standing happens before he stands, thus he can't be tripped since he's already prone. So then he finishes standing up and has an action he can take.

It's bad, but not THAT bad...

[Tyger]

Not really. The AoO provoked when standing happens before he stands, thus he can't be tripped since he's already prone. So then he finishes standing up and has an action he can take.

It's bad, but not THAT bad...

Except, if you have multiple attacks per round, you trip the poor bugger when he tries to close, then hit him with your remaining attack(s). Now free 5 back 5 feet. He stands up, and has to move again through your threatened areas, taking another AoO trip. Rinse, cycle, repeat, die.

Nasty.

EDIT: Of course, if he had another move action after you tripped him, yes, he could stand up. Though he's still 10' away, and can't close with you, as he's used up both move actions. He should just run back and draw a crossbow. :)

[horseboy]

Not really. The AoO provoked when standing happens before he stands, thus he can't be tripped since he's already prone. So then he finishes standing up and has an action he can take.

It's bad, but not THAT bad...

No, if he's in the process of standing up, and you give him the "Props are dangerous" and pull his arm out from under him again, he stays down.

It's even worse if the 1st level mage has ray of enfeeblement. Then you can take an orge down.

[horseboy]

Except, if you have multiple attacks per round, you trip the poor bugger when he tries to close, then hit him with your remaining attack(s). Now free 5 back 5 feet. He stands up, and has to move again through your threatened areas, taking another AoO trip. Rinse, cycle, repeat, die.

Nasty.

EDIT: Of course, if he had another move action after you tripped him, yes, he could stand up. Though he's still 10' away, and can't close with you, as he's used up both move actions. He should just run back and draw a crossbow. :)

With improved trip you trip him, knock him down, attack him, then take your normal attack, hitting him twice in one round even at first level

[Damionte]

Not true. While prone (and until you have completed your move action to stand up again) you don't threaten any spaces, and therefore attacking said person standing up, would not provoke any AoOs. (at least from the guy standing up)

You still threaten when prone. You simply take numerical penalties to the things you can do. And can't use a bow, or move around properly. Other than that you fight the same.

[AtomicKitKat]

With improved trip you trip him, knock him down, attack him, then take your normal attack, hitting him twice in one round even at first level

Wouldn't you already have used your one "normal attack" to do the Trip in the first place?

[Arbitrarity]

Knockdown FTW.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

Wouldn't you already have used your one "normal attack" to do the Trip in the first place?

I think he means using the AoO to trip, then Improved Trip to get a free attack, then your regularly scheduled attack.

And there's a simple solution... it's called a 5' step, which doesn't provoke an AoO. If you're 10' away from him, stand up, take the hit, take a 5' step closer, then wail away at him.

If you back up, you beg him to use the Power Attack/Shock Trooper combo to charge you, stopping at 10' distant to slam you with his charge so as to avoid AoO himself, and drop 2-3 times your BAB in damage down upon you without a penalty to attack. This hurts.

[horseboy]

Wouldn't you already have used your one "normal attack" to do the Trip in the first place?

I was using "Hold the line" so I could get an AoO from the mob's charge, tripped him, hit him for free, then hit him for my regular attack.

Next turn he gets up, provoking AoO, trip him again, hit him again. Then regular attack again.

The trip fighter really isn't there to damage though, he's there to mitigate the mobs so they can't hurt the party.

[Fishies]

It's even worse if the 1st level mage has ray of enfeeblement. Then you can take an orge down.

Wait, you mean there's 1st level mages that DON'T have ray of enfeeblement?

[horseboy]

I think he means using the AoO to trip, then Improved Trip to get a free attack, then your regularly scheduled attack.

And there's a simple solution... it's called a 5' step, which doesn't provoke an AoO. If you're 10' away from him, stand up, take the hit, take a 5' step closer, then wail away at him.

If you back up, you beg him to use the Power Attack/Shock Trooper combo to charge you, stopping at 10' distant to slam you with his charge so as to avoid AoO himself, and drop 2-3 times your BAB in damage down upon you without a penalty to attack. This hurts.

Nah, don't have power attack.

I'll talk to the DM Saturday. He's been talking with the triad to get back his N cleric of Fharlanghn back to player control. Since switching to LE for sundering a rock is rather excessive. I'll have him ask about this whole can you stand up after a trip attack thing.