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Thread: No-Wild Shape Druid
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2016-07-27, 08:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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No-Wild Shape Druid
Introduction
In my experience Wild Shape is such a defining feature of the Druid, both in respect to fluff and power, that you have to use it to experience the full force of the Druid. I believe this is a lost opportunity for people, like me, that love nature casters in general (just look at the huge amount of Druid Archetypes DM's Guild has pushed out) but hates that we are shoe-horned into using Wild Shape.
In my opinion WotC should have kept Wildshape as an archetype feature. This would have opened up for so many other cool archetypes for the Druid, that doesn't have to pay respect to Wild Shape as a defining feature.
I acknowledge that many of you are die hard Wildshape fans and I am sure you have good points to why it makes sense that the Druid has this ability both from a historical, fictional and dnd-classical view. However, this is not the thread where we discuss how much we love Wild Shape.
This is thread where we try to find a balanced alternative feature.
Edit: Also, Fey Pact Warlocks, Nature Clerics and Lore Bards make fine nature casters. But playing one of those instead of the Druid is not a fix, but more of a workaround.
Alternative Feature Thoughts
In 3.X, as far as I remember, the Druid had two alternative versions that exchanged Wild Shape for something else.
One was the Aspect of Nature The other was the Druid Variant. Both were very nice alternative options. However, it would be quite impossible to just use them in 5E without a bit of redesigning.
What do you guys think would be a fair tradeoff for Wild Shape? I would love to hear your ideas for a well balanced alternative.
List of Alternatives
The listed alternatives are primarily meant for the Circle of the Land druid. Be wary of using any of these alternatives with other Druid archetypes. Especially Circle of the Moon, in which case, I suggest you ignore this exercise entirely.
Aspect of Nature Druid
Remove: Wild Shape, Beast Spells and Archdruid
Gain: Aspect of Nature (See below)
Starting at 2nd level, you can use a bonus action to magically enhance yourself with the power of nature. You can use this feature twice. You regain expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.
Your druid level determines aspects you can take, as shown in the Aspects table.
Aspects
Level
2nd — Rubble, Embers and Leaves
4th — Streams, Winds, Roots
8th — Air, Earth, Fire and Water
Aspect of Rubble
- Your AC can’t be less than 14, regardless of what kind of armor you are wearing.
- You have advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks to hide in rocky terrain.
- You can move across difficult terrain made of earth or stone without expending extra movement.
Aspect of Embers
- You have resistance to fire damage.
- Once per turn you can add fire damage to one of your melee or ranged attacks equal to your proficiency.
- You can chose to shed light like a torch.
Aspect of Leaves
- At the start of each of your turns, and when you activate this aspect, you gain temporary hit points equal to your proficiency bonus.
- You have advantage on Dexterity (Stealth) checks to hide in forests and other lush areas.
- Whenever you use an ability to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to the spells level. You must be in direct sunlight or adjacent to a fresh water supply for this ability to work.
Aspect of Streams
- You can breathe air and water.
- You have a swimming speed of 30 feet.
- You have advantage on Dexterity checks to escape a grapple.
Aspect of Winds
- You can hold your breath indefinitely while you’re not incapacitated
- You have a flying speed equal to half your current walking speed. This benefit works only in short bursts; you fall if you end your turn in the air and nothing else is holding you aloft.
- You can use your reaction when you fall to reduce any falling damage you take by an amount equal to five times your Druid level.
Aspect of Earth
- You can meld and move through natural soil and rock formations. Every foot of meld movement costs 1 extra foot. You must remain within 2 feet of the surface. This allows you to pass through natural walls or similar obstacles. You can't use this ability to move through worked stone or brick walls. If you end your turn inside a wall or obstacle, you are shunted out to the nearest open space.
- Your unarmed damage deals 1d4 damage. The damage increases as if you were a monk of 8 levels lower.
- Your AC can’t be less than 16, regardless of what kind of armor you are wearing.
You can have one aspect active at a time. It lasts for a minute after which you revert to your normal form unless you expend another use of this feature. You can revert to your normal form earlier by using a bonus action on your turn. You automatically revert if you fall unconscious, drop to 0 hit points, or die.
Starting at 18th level you can have two aspects active at the same time.
Starting at 20th level you never revert back to your normal form unless you chose to.
Divine Druid
Remove: Wild Shape, Beast Spells and Archdruid
Gain: Channel Divinity (as Cleric), Channel Divinity: Turn Undead and Channel Divinity: Domain (See below)
Your Druid archetype would decide what Channel Divinity: Domain feature you would get. Circle of the Land would get Channel Divinity: Charm Animal and Plants. A DM's Guild archetype like Circle of the Sun might get Channel Divinity: Radiance of the Dawn.
Cunning Druid
Remove: Wild Shape, Beast Spells and Archdruid
Gain: Cunning Action
Note: If you are a Circle of the Land Druid you could add other cunning actions depending on your chosen land.
Cunning Actions Depending on Land
- Jungle/Mountain : Climb Onto Bigger Creature and Climb Speed.
- Desert: Disarm and Sandwalk
- Ocean: Overrun and swim speed
Metamagic Druid
Remove: Wild Shape, Beast Spells and Archdruid
Gain: Metamagic
Beast Master Druid
Remove: Wild Shape, Beast Spells and Archdruid
Gain: Ranger's Companion, Exceptional TRaining, Bestial Fury, Share Spells
Warden Druid
Remove: Wild Shape, Beast Spells and Archdruid
Gain: Warden Forms
Starting at 2nd level, you can use a bonus action to magically take the form of nature. You can use this feature twice. You regain expended uses when you finish a short or long rest.
Your druid level determines forms you can take, as shown in the Forms table.
Forms
Level
2nd — Form of the Dread Serpent, Form of the Faultless Tracker, Form of the Relentless Panther, Form of the Swamp Hunter
4th — Form of the Fearsome Ram, Form of Mountain's Thunder, Form of the Laughing Killer
8th — Form of the Willow Sentinel, Form of the Walking Conflagration, Form of Winter's Herald
Form of Winter's Herald
Effect: You assume the guardian form of the willow sentinel for up to one hour. While you are in this form, you negate any forced movement on you, although you still take any associated damage as normal. In addition, you and any ally adjacent to you have advantage on all saves or checks made to resist being grappled, restrained, or any effect that includes forced movement.
Once per transformation, you may use the following ability:
when an adjacent enemy attacks an adjacent ally, you can use your Reaction to give Disadvantage on that attack, and make a melee weapon attack against the triggering enemy.Last edited by X3r4ph; 2016-08-09 at 02:59 AM.
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2016-07-27, 08:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
Have you considered a Nature Cleric or Lore Bard?
My D&D 5th ed. Druid Handbook
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2016-07-27, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
My first inclination is to make any variants as a Circle. Having a circle that completely rewrites a core class feature is atypical, but not terribroken.
Aspect of Nature - that's the grow claws and leaves one, right? Picking up a set of options that use the wildshape timer would work. I'm looking at it like an invocation or four winds laundry list of options. Additional picks with cirlce feature progrssions? Follow the normal WS limits (aquatic at 4, flight at 8, elemental at...?). You lack the onion factor from wildshape, but cannot be "knocked out" of your features... may need another benefit, or simply add a thp aspect.
Borrowing from hymer's idea, steal Channel Divinity from Cleric (specifically the Nature options). You may need to add an additional function since you do not have the default "turn undead." This would probably work best with Land Circle casting... I'd still be inclined to make this a separate circle (Sun Circle - it contrasts the Wildshape-heavy Moon Circle) and give them a custom "domain" list.
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2016-07-27, 08:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
Yeah, I like nature magic - I even like wildshape, but I often want to play a class without.
I would suggest replacing it with sorcerer style metamagic for the moon druid. This gives you the full caster but have replaced one defining feature with another. Wildshape like sorcery points goes up with level.
Taking land druid and swapping out the weaker wildshape for metamagic might be too powerful.
My other gripe, is that there are not enough druidy spells without going elemental druid. I would quite like a few more viable plant and animal themed spells. (Although occasional re-fluff can assist)
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2016-07-27, 09:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
... on reflection, I agree. Wild Shape could absolutely be contained entirely in Circle of the Moon, and the druid class wouldn't suffer for it.
Actually, now that I think about it, back in 3E the three powers of the druid were:
- Spellcasting
- Wild shape
- Animal companion
It would be straightforward enough to have one path for each of these, wouldn't it? All druids would remain spellcasters, but one path would focus on its specifically, while the wild shape path would turn into things, and the animal companion path could take notes from the druid's classic focus on summoning spells.
Hmm.Originally Posted by KKL
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2016-07-27, 09:23 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
To think about it, Turn Undead would fit well for druids because undeath is an affront to the natural circle of life. Druids love all things natural, right? Undeath is unnatural in every possible way.
Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
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D&D/Pathfinder CV of sorts
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2016-07-27, 09:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-07-27, 01:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
True, but OP doesn't seem particularly attached to the spell list, or at least doesn't mention it. Nature Cleric and Lore Bard could/should pick up enough nature-themed spells to be able to pull off the vibe of the mentioned 'nature casters'.
So it seems to me worth asking whether the existing alternatives have been explored before embarking on homebrew. It might also be easier to homebrew using the nature cleric as a skeleton than the druid class.My D&D 5th ed. Druid Handbook
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2016-07-27, 02:13 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
Your thread reminded me of the fact that other threads are currently discussing the shaman. And then it occurred to me that you could take the druid chassis, strip off wild shape, keep the nature related spells and swap out a few with a necromantic bent, and then add an undead familiar of some sort (minor ghost, spirits of some sort, etc.) and you'd have a good build for a shaman.
So thanks for broaching this subject as now I'm tempted to try and work out all of those kinks.
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2016-07-27, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
I'm a big fan of poaching archetypes from other classes - I wonder if Necro Wizard or Death Cleric would work for the shaman... or maybe some divination? Augury would be a really good shaman talkin' to de spirits spell.
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2016-07-27, 08:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
Huh. When I found this thread, I was just wondering what one could replace Wild shape with.
Wild shape and related class features:
2nd level: Wildshape
4th level: WS improvement
8th level: WS improvement
18th level: Beast Spells
20th level: Archdruid
I propose the following list of replacements for these abilities:
2nd level: Turn Undead (as cleric)
4th level: Turn Undead also affects Aberrations
8th level: Either nature cleric's Divine Strike, or extra use of Turn Undead (unsure)
18th level: Spell Mastery (as wizard)
20th level: Signature Spells (as wizard)
Edit: And then I remember Favored EnemyLast edited by King539; 2016-07-27 at 08:08 PM.
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2016-07-28, 12:58 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
Last edited by Giant2005; 2016-07-28 at 12:58 AM.
My Homebrew:
NEW: The Curse of Ylem Grav (Adventure)
Intelligence Matters, Epic Options, Vampires, Golemancy, The Drunkard, The Disfigured Mage, and Ranger Revised
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2016-07-28, 06:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
I am a huge fan of "if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it".
There are plenty of options for a nature oriented caster:
Nature Cleric would be the best fit, but you might also look into:
Transmuter wizard
Paladin of the Ancients
Ranger
Totem barbarian
Or any other class with Hermit background/Nature-oriented race (such as Forest Gnomes and Elves)/Magic initiate/Ritual Caster
Depending on what level of magic you prefer.Fi onio duo rena!
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2016-07-28, 06:32 AM (ISO 8601)
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Last edited by Zejety; 2016-07-28 at 06:32 AM.
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2016-07-28, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
Originally Posted by KKL
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2016-07-28, 09:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
*Tons* of things could be at the right power level to be a balanced trade. What kind of fluff are you looking for?
Off the top of my head:
- Some kind of summoned animal or nature spirit with primarily out-of-combat utility. (Essentially a refluffed Familiar...) Adding utility at higher levels (like see through the hawk's eyes).
- Something along the Primeval Awareness -- Commune with Nature axis.
- Something like the Nature Cleric's ability to charm plants and animals.
- Something like the Beast Master Ranger.
- One extra Circle Spell at each level where you get them.
- Something like the Archfey-patron Warlock abilities.
So... what kind of "nature caster" are you looking to play?
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2016-07-28, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
I don't think you should replace it, maybe just customize for new circles.
I like the alter self style approach getting natural armor, or claws, or at the appropriate levels maybe even gills or wings.
I personally would like to see a more plant based circle. Maybe let the druid turn into a small ent for two uses of wild shape or something.
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2016-07-28, 09:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
You could make a subclass that gives the Druid the ability to use their Wildshape uses to cast spells. Have the equivalent spell slot level increase whenever you would normally receive a subclass feature.
It might sound boring for a subclass, but not much more boring than the Land Druid anyway, and most daily casters would kill to get their hands on a couple of short rest spell slots without it harming their daily progression. There would need to be a hard limit of twice per short rest though, otherwise the capstone would get even more broken.My Homebrew:
NEW: The Curse of Ylem Grav (Adventure)
Intelligence Matters, Epic Options, Vampires, Golemancy, The Drunkard, The Disfigured Mage, and Ranger Revised
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2016-07-28, 11:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
A lot of awesome ideas and comments. Great ideas and thoughts on the subject!
I have taken the liberty to update the first post with my thoughts to "why don't you just play a Nature Cleric". I think that is great workaround to remain a nature caster. However, the goal of this thread is experience the Druid. It's spells and it's archetypes, without being hampered by Wild Shape.
Personally I have become pretty hooked on the Aspect of Nature redesign. It offers something new to the Druid that other classes doesn't have. It is a feature that requires a lot more work than simple switching one feature for another. But I think the end result could become quite awesome.
I have updated the original post with a list outlining your ideas. I think I got all your ideas down.
Looking forward to you evaluations of balance and content.
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2016-07-29, 12:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
I like what you've done with the aspects, and I'd like to contribute with a suggestion (or suggestions, which I'll update later if I get more ideas):
Aspect of Earth:
* You can meld with natural soil and rock formations and as a part of your move action, although for each feet you move this way you must use 4 additional feet. You must remain within 1 feet of the surface. This allows you to pass through natural walls or similar obstacles. You can't use this ability to move through worked stone or brick walls.
* Your unarmed damage deals 1d4 damage (increasing per level as a monk of 8 levels lower)
* Your AC can't be lower than 16 regardless of the armor you use.Last edited by Arkhios; 2016-07-29 at 12:51 AM.
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2016-07-29, 02:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
That is a great idea. Kinda like the Earth Elemental Earth Glide ability? Just a bit weaker? Very cool.
Edit: 4 extra feet is a bit much isn't it? Let's say you wanna pass through a wall to get past an enemy occupying a 5 feet square. that would cost 25 ft of movement. And you would have to end in a square adjacent to the enemy. It seems a bit underwhelming.
How about 2 feet instead. A 5 feet move through a wall would cost 15 feet. Most characters would still have some movement left after that.Last edited by X3r4ph; 2016-07-29 at 03:21 AM.
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2016-07-29, 10:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-07-29, 08:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
Too simple?
But would Storm Sorcerer, that picked spells from Druid list be any good?
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2016-07-29, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
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2016-08-08, 04:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
Cunning Action instead of Wildshape is an elegant solution. It does however suffer from the same problems as the Metamagic and Channel Divinity fixes. You are stepping on somebody else's toes.
Would there be other actions that would be more suitable? Maybe something from the DMG extended list of actions? Or the few left? Climb onto Bigger Creature, Disarm, Dodge, Mark, Overrun, Search, Shove Aside, Tumble?
Just brainstorming here. :)
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2016-08-08, 04:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-08, 04:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-08, 06:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
Actually, IIRC, I saw the "4 extra feet" rule somewhere in the books, but unfortunately I can't remember where exactly.
Now that I think of it though, I think I aimed for something similar to the effect of moving in difficult terrain. Personally I wouldn't allow Aspect of Earth treat the "lesser earth-glide" as if moving through difficult terrain per say, because otherwise some feats and other special effects would allow weird shenanigans with it (for example Mobile would allow you to Dash through difficult terrain without penalty to your speed)Please be mindful of what you say in public; sadly not all can handle sarcasm or The Internet Credibility.
My Homebrew:
Base Class: Warlord | Roguish Archetype: Inquisitor | Roguish Archetype: Thug | Primal Path: Rage Mage
Ongoing game & character:
Sajan Uttam, human Monk 6/Fist of Irori 3 (Legacy of Fire)
D&D/Pathfinder CV of sorts
3.0 since 2002
3.5 since 2003
4e since 2008
Pathfinder 1e since 2008
5e since 2014
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2016-08-08, 09:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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2016-08-08, 09:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: No-Wild Shape Druid
You could add others but I would take just Cunning Action and be happy.
You could give them additional actions with Cunning action depending on their land choice.
Jungle/Mountain : Climb Onto Bigger Creature and Climb Speed.
Desert: Disarm + Sandwalk
Ocean: Overrun + swim speed