OOTS #1046 - The Discussion Thread

[Fitzclowningham]

Hear, hear. Great post by TheWolfe.

Very much agreed. I started a post on the same topic some years ago. Many disagreed with the premise.

[zimmerwald1915]

Eh, I don't see something like that happening. I think that maybe, Inky will let V spend some time with their children, and maybe eventually V will have matured enough for Inky to give them another chance, because V now knows that there are more important things to life than Ultimate Arcane Power.

Inky wanted, and now has, "full custody." V has no rights whatsoever to see her children or be involved with them in any way (though theWolfe's theory that V is "supporting them from far away" doesn't hold any water either, except in the sense that she is improving their lives by being far away; she isn't paying child support). Any further contact between V and the kids is at Inky's sole discretion, and her "stay the hell away from us" makes it perfectly clear that she isn't going to grant it.

Bridge burnt.

Eugene is a failed hero. V is a failed villain.

Oh, a pretty successful villain, really.

In all fairness, V's not a healer, and had no access to healing magic even under the influence of the Soul Splices. Short of teleporting them all to Durkon, Mass Teleporting them to the fleet, or taking them to a never-before-mentioned healer in proximity to their home, there really wasn't much V could do about the injuries Inky and the kids took before they arrived.

Or wish, assuming either Jephton or Ganonron had it.

has Eugene been evaluated already?

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Yes, he has. The $64,000 question is, can he be evaluated again?

[KorvinStarmast]

... but since I have started my graudate program I have begun caring less and less for emotions, to the point of openly stating more than once that Love is entropically unfavorable.
What have I become.

A grumpy old many before your time. There are worse fates. And there is always hope:
(1) is not allowed by forum rules
(2) with beer, all things are possible.

I wonder why Haley is frowning in the 3rd panel when they were in the illusion world

Two reasons.
(1) confusion.
(2) Haley is a brain centric character. Being subject to illusion is not a happy event for her, unlike Elan. Haley likes to be on top of things. (Notice her frequent unhappiness when forced to be the leader). When you are mentally dominated by an illusion, you are not on top. (Unlike her relationship with Elan ....)

[Ruck]

I for one don't really blame Eugene, Eugene is at Heart an illusionist. and those don't really feels like "lawful". also you should note that Roy's sister is True Neutral. (prolly Roy alignement is more in consonance with his mum than his dad)

Not sure what any of that has to do with Eugene's bad parenting, which was the subject of the post you quoted.

And I'm not really sure what argument you're trying to make in the rest of your post.

[Jasdoif]

Any further contact between V and the kids is at Inky's sole discretion

Until the children are capable of making the decision for themselves, anyway.

and her "stay the hell away from us" makes it perfectly clear that she isn't going to grant it.

...you picked a line from when Inkyrius still thought Vaarsuvius' body was possessed by demons?

[Shining Wrath]

Until his final death, Eugene didn't know the oath would keep him out of the afterlife.

So, he is dealing with the consequences of an oath he a) did not understand, and b) made while drunk.

One would assume that a Lawful Good system would recognize the questionable validity of an oath made under a state of impaired awareness, self control, and reasoning, notwithstanding the fact that the one making the oath was unaware of several major conditions of the oath. Eugene assumed, and nobody saw any need to correct.

At the risk of hijacking this thread into another interminable alignment discussion I'll say Lawful Good doesn't take circumstances into account, unless the precise wording of the spell description allows a saving throw if the Oath Taker is intoxicated or otherwise suffering from impaired judgment. Neutral Good might consider Eugene's impairment.

[zimmerwald1915]

Until the children are capable of making the decision for themselves, anyway.

At that point, why would they care to see someone they haven't seen for ninety years? Even for an elf, that's a long time - about sixteen percent of an average lifespan.

...you picked a line from when Inkyrius still thought Vaarsuvius' body was possessed by demons?

To prove the proposition that Inky's priority is protecting her children, which priority she later effectuated by getting the divorce? Yes.

[TheWolfe]

Inky wanted, and now has, "full custody." V has no rights whatsoever to see her children or be involved with them in any way (though theWolfe's theory that V is "supporting them from far away" doesn't hold any water either, except in the sense that she is improving their lives by being far away; she isn't paying child support). Any further contact between V and the kids is at Inky's sole discretion, and her "stay the hell away from us" makes it perfectly clear that she isn't going to grant it.

Bridge burnt.

Yes, I suppose when I wrote 'supported' I was kind of hasty and used the wrong word. What I meant was that IMO V consider hirself to be a bad parent right now, or at least someone the kids shouldn't have in their lives. So hir is moving away from them, accepting the divorce and Inky's demands to stay away. When I wrote support I guess what I meant was that V considers the best thing hir can do for the kids is stop Xykon and prevent the world from getting undone, and do her best to atone and make the world hir kids live in a better place.

And maybe, when V has had a good, hard look at hirself, atoned, and thinks hir has changed, I suppose hir might try to contact Inky by letter or Send, asking for a second chance. I expect V will subject hirself to Inky's judgment, and if Inky still considers hir a bad influence, hir will exile himself and probably try to protect them from danger from far away, or try to do good deeds to improve the world as a whole.

Also, in response to the discussion on whether Eugene's intoxication should make the oath void, I'd have to say no. We're still responsible for the decisions we make and things we do while drunk. A drunk driver who hits someone is still responsible for the injuries and damage, and parents are still responsible for a child born from a drunken one-night stand. If Eugene didn't want to get the oath, he shouldn't have been wandering the streets drunk, or stopped himself to listen to the man when he tried to explain the risks.

[Keltest]

At that point, why would they care to see someone they haven't seen for ninety years? Even for an elf, that's a long time - about sixteen percent of an average lifespan.


To prove the proposition that Inky's priority is protecting her children, which priority she later effectuated by getting the divorce? Yes.

Protecting her children from what, exactly? While V was, for a brief time, quite scary and, for a much longer time, a very inattentive mate, there has never been any indication that V themselves was an active threat to the children's well beings. At worst, the possibility exists that more monsters will go after V through their family, and divorcing V isn't exactly going to make that less of a threat. I think you are confusing "divorcing V for being a less than dedicated husband" with "divorcing V for being a present and active threat to the well being of the rest of the family"

[Grey Watcher]

Or wish, assuming either Jephton or Ganonron had it.

Well, there was a line from the IFCC's sales pitch to Vaarsuvius that said V couldn't duplicate any sort of divine magic, even with Wish, due to a non-compete agreement between the IFCC and the evil gods. So, as far healing the immediate physical injuries, V's options were pretty much "teleport them to a healer". Maybe throw in a Time Stop or similar to prevent bleeding out or to stop the progress of any magical diseases, but there doesn't seem to have been any such thing in play.

[Wildroses]

Durkon breaking up with Hilgya has been dethroned. We have a new saddest comic ever.

[8BitNinja]

Durkon breaking up with Hilgya has been dethroned. We have a new saddest comic ever.

Really? More sad then when Tarquin's story arc was left unfinished. The bards are going to be disagreeing with you.

[Grey Watcher]

Protecting her children from what, exactly? While V was, for a brief time, quite scary and, for a much longer time, a very inattentive mate, there has never been any indication that V themselves was an active threat to the children's well beings. At worst, the possibility exists that more monsters will go after V through their family, and divorcing V isn't exactly going to make that less of a threat. I think you are confusing "divorcing V for being a less than dedicated husband" with "divorcing V for being a present and active threat to the well being of the rest of the family"

I think I'm gonna have to side with Keltest here: while a vicious attack from a dragon may have brought the issues to a head, I have a feeling that the years and decades of spousal and parental neglect were a much bigger part of the reasons for a divorce. It's worth noting that Inky's kiss-off is "This is what you've always wanted, far more than you've ever wanted me," and not "I can't expose the children to whatever crazy horror you dig up next out there."

Also, note that Vaarsuivus never offers to take the kids or Inky to a healer. Never so much as suggests "Hey, while I'm damning my immortal soul, at least let me set you up with some crazy awesome wards to keep you safe." Heck, I'd have to re-read, but does V even so much as apologize for bringing the danger to Inky's face?

The divorce was coming a long time before V even joined the Order. The Black Dragon incident just pushed the timetable forward by a few decades.

Durkon breaking up with Hilgya has been dethroned. We have a new saddest comic ever.

Nah, I think Durkon's death at the hands of Malack still holds that title.

EDIT: Links to relevant comics: the non-compete clause (#634, panel 1), Vaarsuvius is just gonna ditch his family once the immediate danger is passed until Inky forces the issue (#641), and V's "I'm sorry" isn't an apology about bringing danger or destruction, but an acknowledgement that Inky's right, family will always play second fiddle to having the ability to "fix everything" (#642).

[GM_3826]

...Are you guys OK? I feel like there's something personal involved in this whole divorce debate, although I agree that Varsuuvius will not and should not get Inkyrius back.

[Harrymcb]

My opinion on when the sword became a weapon of legacy is when it was reforged. It is mentioned that part of its power comes from the dedication of its owner. And if I remember right once Roy got the sword fixed he rededicated himself to stopping xykon

[Ruck]

I think I'm gonna have to side with Keltest here: while a vicious attack from a dragon may have brought the issues to a head, I have a feeling that the years and decades of spousal and parental neglect were a much bigger part of the reasons for a divorce. It's worth noting that Inky's kiss-off is "This is what you've always wanted, far more than you've ever wanted me," and not "I can't expose the children to whatever crazy horror you dig up next out there."

Blackwing explicitly tells Vaarsuvius this, and we get a flashback to V's previous neglect, early on in Blood Runs in the Family.

[Keltest]

...Are you guys OK? I feel like there's something personal involved in this whole divorce debate, although I agree that Varsuuvius will not and should not get Inkyrius back.

Zimmer does not like V. At all.

[The MunchKING]

Also, note that Vaarsuivus never offers to take the kids or Inky to a healer.

That got to me too.

Never so much as suggests "Hey, while I'm damning my immortal soul, at least let me set you up with some crazy awesome wards to keep you safe." Heck, I'd have to re-read, but does V even so much as apologize for bringing the danger to Inky's face?

I thought when V was explaining why she needed the Demonic power she said it was to save them from the dragon which was her fault, but I admit I haven't read that particular strip in a while.

EDIT: Ok, so she says that it was to defeat the dragon in 641, expresses that she knew what the dragon would do and that it was necessary for her to get the power from demons to stop it in 642, but doesn't ACTUALLY acknowledge that the dragon thing was her fault at any point to Inky.

[TheWolfe]

I'd like to offer a potential explanation as to why V didn't offer or give medical assistance to the children. My guess isn't that it's ingrained parental neglect as such, but more V being in an 'adventurer mindset'. At this point in time V has been in the Order for quite a while, and is used to fighting together with them. Since this is a tense, stressful combat situation I imagine V automatically falling back on the instincts and combat roles hir is used to from hir time with the Order.

First of all, to an adventurer, a broken bone isn't that bad. V has been in an environment where broken bones are treated easily and don't cause much distress or permanent damage. V is used to people breaking a leg getting fixed up by Durkon in seconds. Also, V probably considers a broken leg so negligible, that hir thinks the dying dragon is still a greater threat. V wants to make sure all threats are gone, even potential future threats from some family member, so hir considers the Familicide more pressing and important to keeping hir kids safe than actually treating the leg. Note that this is something that occurs in real life too. I've read accounts of both doctors and military personnel disregarding injuries most people find terrifying or shocking because they're used to injuries that are much worse. V forgets that this can still be very traumatizing to such young kids, and that in this situation, it's not so easily fixed.

Which brings me to my second point: V is not the healer. In an adventurer party, or any military group, people get certain roles. V is used to being the heavy hitter, killing enemies from afar. V does not concern hirself with healing. That's Durkon's job. I think that in this moment, V simply forgot Durkon wasn't there, simply put. V probably assumed, instinctively, that someone else would already be on healing duty.

I don't pretend these were good things. V should have shown more concern, tried to do more. I'm simply trying to offer a logical alternative to the already proposed theory that V didn't care about the kids.

As an aside, I'd like to offer a quick comment on the people who calculated that V could have teleported them to a healer and still have enough spells left, mathematically speaking. I don't disagree with such analyses, in fact I find it fascinating to see the different scenarios that could have played out. I just object to blaming characters for not taking such an option. Remember, even though you were able to mathematically figure out that V had enough spells, remember that V hirself had to make a decision in seconds. I know, I know, talking is a free action, a turn takes longer than it does, etc, but still. I don't blame V for not immediately considering and calculating every single option within a second, and see which ones are viable and which ones aren't. V was under a lot of stress, a power high like hir's on heavy drugs, fear, time pressure, etc. So don't blame hir for not counting hir spells and considering every potential spell hir could have gotten from Wish or something.

[pendell]

THANK YOU, Roy, for shutting down Eugene's crudity. it is appreciated.

Man, Eugene's as wordy as Vaarsuvius. Are all wizards like this?

Here's hoping Eugene and Roy can cut it out with the philosophical disagreement and actually HELP.

Here's a clue, Eugene: Less argument, more lecture and explanation.

I can see why he was so difficult to get along with, growing up.

Still, overall, a great strip! And the one-panel rebuttal to Eugene at the end is priceless. Poor V....

Respectfully,

Brian P.

[Doug Lampert]

Until the children are capable of making the decision for themselves, anyway.

...you picked a line from when Inkyrius still thought Vaarsuvius' body was possessed by demons?

Yep, the claim that Inkyrius doesn't want anything to do with V is in fact highly speculative, a sending that "I'm sorry, is there anything I can do" would not be amiss, it would in fact be a heck of a lot better than mooning over a picture that doesn't even include your own children.

V could offer child support, V could offer I'm here if you need me, V could hire someone to carry and explanation and apology.

V isn't doing any of that.

Edited to add: And V didn't do any of that between the Dragon scene and the divorce, V had time to prepare new spells at least once in that interval and was off to go shopping, because shopping for components is more important than the mess you've left of your life/marriage.

[Jasdoif]

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Been a while since I read the book (and don't have a copy handy) but no I am refering to when Right Eye approached him.

My memory is Right Eye gave him a location (and likely whatever other information Eugene would have found useful) and Eugene said 'no' largely to protect his family (or because he had commitments to them at least) and than in a mindset oddly different than 1046 told Right Eye he should go form his own family (something Right Eye than did).

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

Now I have access to my book....

First, I forgot it was Xyklon the Consequential, not Xyklon the Inconsequential. Oops.


Secondly...Eugene started out saying that he had already given up on pursuing it years ago, which I presume coincides with the Xyklon the Consequential escapade. And he does say the risk isn't worth the reward anymore because of the risk to his family...But of course, he still didn't know it'd cause him problems with getting into the afterlife.

So I think my point stands: Eugene didn't realize there was a personal cost associated with halting his pursuit of Xykon, so his perception of himself and his family never conflicted in his mind while he was alive.


Also, I noticed that Eugene told Roy he never searched for Xykon since he met Sara, but would have dropped everything and gone after Xykon if he had "one solid piece of data on where he was hiding"...14 years after Right-Eye told him exactly where Xykon was. Make of that what you will.

At the risk of hijacking this thread into another interminable alignment discussion I'll say Lawful Good doesn't take circumstances into account, unless the precise wording of the spell description allows a saving throw if the Oath Taker is intoxicated or otherwise suffering from impaired judgment.

I disagree. Lawful Good did take circumstances into account; that's how Roy got in after all.

Spoiler: Start of Darkness

Show

But regardless of how much Eugene's judgement was impaired when he took the Oath...he took it, later knew he took it, and felt obligated to complete it because he knew he took it. His circumstances are accepting it on its face after he knew what he'd done.

At that point, why would they care to see someone they haven't seen for ninety years?

That'd be for them to decide, wouldn't it? Parent-child relationships can run all over the board, with twists and turns that don't always make apparent sense. I certainly don't know enough about them to think I could make a loosely accurate guess for nine decades down the road....

To prove the proposition that Inky's priority is protecting her children, which priority she later effectuated by getting the divorce? Yes.

See, for that route I'd have gone for the next comic, showing that Inkyrius is putting defense of family (of which Vaarsuvius is not considered an active member upon departure) ahead of personal preference, and that Vaarsuvius doesn't even see a describe to explain the scenario to be fixed. It seems much more compelling than an extrapolation from an outburst before Inkyrius had all the facts available.

[LuisDantas]

We can always trust Eugene to make poor judgments.

[LuisDantas]

Edited to add: And V didn't do any of that between the Dragon scene and the divorce, V had time to prepare new spells at least once in that interval and was off to go shopping, because shopping for components is more important than the mess you've left of your life/marriage.

Not dividing your attention when dealing with a world-threatening situation makes sense, you know.

V may or may not have a chance with Inkyrius in the future. But he can hardly be blamed for not wanting to deal with it yet.

[JSSheridan]

Thanks Giant!

I wonder why Haley was frowning in the cutaway to Girad's Gate.

[ManuelSacha]

Good on you, V.
Maybe it's too late, maybe it's not.
But at least you're finally getting it.

[Necris Omega]

One thing about Eugene is... he's a restless spirit. Literally. He is a soul denied his rest for... flagrantly terrible reasons.

In most other situations he'd be haunting some decrepit castle or something. His situation is usually reserved for the Undead, and not in a good way.

What I'm getting at is... his situation is supernaturally terrible, and has been since his death. His soul is denied its rest, always in site of Heaven, but never being able to reach it. This is the sort of thing that, again, if he were on the prime, could easily result in some seriously bad necromantic horror, even if he was good in life.

Because he's on some heavenly doorstop plane, it hasn't gone that far. I can, however, see his situation easily highlighting the absolute worst aspects of his personality.

I mean... Roy's Mom once loved him, and she's a warm, pleasant caramel roll. I think for Eugene to be able to start a family with the likes of her, at some point he had to be at least a halfway decent person.

But again, he's now a restless spirit denied his place in the afterlife, largely helpless to do anything about it. So, Eugene devolves into Eujerk.

[8BitNinja]

My opinion on when the sword became a weapon of legacy is when it was reforged. It is mentioned that part of its power comes from the dedication of its owner. And if I remember right once Roy got the sword fixed he rededicated himself to stopping xykon

It could also be the Starmetal imbuing effects on the sword, or even a combination.

[BriarHobbit]

Wow, this was just awesome. A fine scene. The sword's mystic effect also healed Roy and allowed him shrug off a number of negative levels. Probably just as well that he can't figure out how to activate the blast. He might have put a hole in the ship. Appreciated the nice transition to V.

[Harrymcb]

It could also be the Starmetal imbuing effects on the sword, or even a combination.

Agreed. Though I would think if it was just the starmetal the blacksmith would have known.