How would a Thayan Paladin feel about slavery?

[MonkeySage]

A free born paladin is born and raised in Thay; the practice of slavery is common.
How does the paladin feel about it?

[Honest Tiefling]

I would say probably not a whole lot, given that he's in a country populated by evil high level mages who have plenty of reasons to be cautious about spies. I would put his chances of survival as being worse then a bacon cheeseburger near a bear den.

As for his feelings, that might be more complicated, based on if he was born into the ruling caste of Mulhorandi, or the slave caste of Rashemi, and how his upbringing was. In the former, there's a higher chance of feeling conflicted about former friends and family, or worries about seeing them for the monsters they truly are. In the later, he probably feels really dang angry about being enslaved by people who regard him as highly as the stuff on the underside of your shoe, and anger at seeing other people being enslaved.

[Rusvul]

That... depends a lot. Slavery is pretty clearly an Evil thing in almost all cases, but depending on what ruleset your paladin might be LN (or something similar)... that combined with the normalization of such practices might produce a paladin that's more okay with it. Really, you haven't provided enough information for a meaningful answer. What specifically does this paladin stand for? If "Order" is their primary ideal, they might be more compelled to turn a blind eye to Thayan oppression. Conversely, if they value "freedom" or "kindness" above all else, then there's a fair amount of conflict between said paladin and Thayan customs.

There are too many variables for there to be a clear cut answer.

(Slavery is real bad, though.)

[Vitruviansquid]

Depends on the tone of the campaign.

If it allows a bit of cynicism, you might have the paladin concerned about whether the slavery in question is being conducted in a legal and ethical way. "Ethical," of course, is based completely upon the traditions that the paladin has been raised in and "legal" tends to change willy-nilly at the convenience of the ruler(s) of the land. But you'd expect something like the paladin asking whether the slaves are being fed enough, whether they are ever beaten unfairly, what processes they might undergo to achieve freedom, and such.

If you want to stress moral objectivity, then the paladin has realized or learned that slavery is evil in the process of becoming a paladin.

[OldTrees1]

As others have said it really depends. For completeness here are some more possibilities:

A) Slavery is vile but I cannot fight all vileness so I must start with fighting the greater evil
B) Slavery cannot be tolerated
C) *Nothing* (died fighting to end slavery)

[Worgwood]

I would say it depends on the treatment of the slaves, how slaves are acquired (are they born into slavery, captured in raids, or sentenced to slavery as part of the legal system?), and how they are represented both legally and socially (are they considered chattel or lower class citizens?). Besides which, one could argue that certain types of serfdom are just slavery with a different name, and you don't often hear of paladins leading peasant revolutions against the bourgeoisie.

The key thing here is that Thay (as I understand it) is an Evil society, which suggests maltreatment of its slaves, among other things. Nobody says the paladin has to be dumb about how he fights it, but there's a good chance the god or whatever else empowers him has some very strong feelings about the matter, and that he would himself.

[Coidzor]

A person born and raised in Thay who lived in Thayan society would just not become a paladin.

Not in the champion of good and righteousness sense anyway.

[Sith_Happens]

Considering that the alignment ramifications of slavery are portrayed extremely inconsistently... Who knows?

[BWR]

A person born and raised in Thay who lived in Thayan society would just not become a paladin.

In the same way drow never become good.
The dominant culture and power structures significantly lowers the chances of an individual developing the right sort of mentality to become good enough to be a paladin, but I wouldn't say it reduces it to zero.
The lifespan of a Thayan paladin is another matter (mostly based on whether they are lawful stupid or not and what god they swear to).

[Spiryt]

Well, trough tout the actual history, slavery was regarded as something normal, and not necessarily particularly sinister, just something that was occurring due to economical and social circumstances.

That being said, from what little bits I know about Thay slavery descriptions, it has absolutely no chance to be viewed as some 'reasonable slavery' or whatever. It seems that official fluff is that they cannot choose their own clothing....

So your Paladin would likely had to get the copulation out of there, or form/join some resistance opposing slavery. Not much other options.

[Honest Tiefling]

In the same way drow never become good.

You're probably correct, but trying to justify things by saying Drizzle did it isn't presenting a good case that it should ever be done.

[Herobizkit]

Vengeance paladin would swear a vendetta against slavers.
Ancients paladin would see people being denied freedom and work with them to break free.
Devotion paladin would see the laws as unjust; would move to change the lawmakers and laws themselves.
Crown paladin would be all for it. Praise the Thayans for being so wise.

[Yora]

Well, trough tout the actual history, slavery was regarded as something normal, and not necessarily particularly sinister, just something that was occurring due to economical and social circumstances.

Througout actual ancient history people also didn't believe in concepts of Good and Evil that match with those of the alignment system.

I would say a paladin from Thay probably would have to oppose the entire social system of the country.
When traveling through other lands, he might regard the local slaves as well treated serfs and not feel an immediate need to intervene. Compared to slavery in Thay, everything on the surface would probably look pretty humane.

[BayardSPSR]

Well, trough tout the actual history, slavery was regarded as something normal, and not necessarily particularly sinister, just something that was occurring due to economical and social circumstances.

True - though the records we have access to were for the most part written by people unlikely to have been at risk of becoming enslaved, so we don't have a full picture.

[Darth Ultron]

The vast majority of paladins in Thay are paladins of slaughter or tyranny, so they fit right in and like slavery just fine.

Now a PH Paladin that is Lawful Good, will not and can not accept Thays type of slavery. Thay is the worst of the worst type of slavery: they capture free folk and make them slaves and slaves are property. A LG paladin could accept slavery if it was more ''indentured service for criminals'' , but not outright slavery. They would think it was wrong and would do what they could to stop it and free slaves. They need not go ''full rebel'', but they might do things like simply buy slaves at the market and then take them to another land and set them free.

Some paladins can view slavery as a necessary evil, something they simply have to accept about the world. They won't like it, but they won't do anything to overly oppose it.

[5ColouredWalker]

*Skips to the end*

RAW, 3.5, Slavery is [Evil].

A vanilla Paladin therefore cannot participate with it, and mush punish those that harm their slaves should they consider them innocent. They will likely dismiss any supposedly 'lawful' form of slavery as coming from illegitimate authority, thus being free to disregard their other rules.

Additionally, they cannot associate with anyone that practices/participates in slavery (Outside of slaves).

That said, a Paladin from Thay is likely one of Tyranny or Slaughter... A Slaughter Paladin doesn't feel much, because they're CS and quickly die because they're CS, a Tyranny Paladin thinks it's the natural order of things and wonders why you question it, or provides you the explanation they've already prepared before enslaving you.

For completion, in the off chance he's a CG Paladin of Freedom, it's even more abhorrent to them than the LG variety, since Freedom is in the name.

There are other Paladin varieties, but that just about covers it.

[Beleriphon]

That being said, from what little bits I know about Thay slavery descriptions, it has absolutely no chance to be viewed as some 'reasonable slavery' or whatever. It seems that official fluff is that they cannot choose their own clothing...

Thay usually falls into the slavery one sees in space opera serials where captured slaves are bound to work the salt mines of Omicron Persei VIII until they drop dead. Actual historical slavery was different, particularly as one moves backwards in time. Roman slaves had rights and could even buy their freedom (not actually that hard to do in many cases), Viking slaves (thralls) could win their freedom by law, even Egypt didn't actually use slaves to an great extent to build their great works since you need skilled labour. That isn't to suggest that being a slave was a good thing at all, but Thay tends towards the cartoon evil version of slavery, while Mulhorand tends towards the slightly more nuanced version where all slaves are effectively property of the state and cannot be abused.

[Malifice]

Evil Paladins are a thing in DnD now you know? Have been for over a decade now.

Seeing as vengance paladins have as core tenents of their oath 'By any means necessary' and 'No mercy' they're pretty much OK with genocide straight off the bat. A LE Vengance Paladin, is probably entirely comfortable with slavery.

Mine is. Hail Bane.

If the qestion was 'how would a LG person view slavery' then the answer is 'not in a favorable light to say the least'.

Why are so many people fascinated with Paladins, and alignment?

[OldTrees1]

Why are so many people fascinated with Paladins, and alignment?

Because humans naturally recognize the ultimate importance of the question "What ought one do?" to various degrees. Discussions about Alignment are a symptom and Paladins are a simplifying tool for easier examination.



A Good Paladin can coexist with slavery but only in the same way that they coexist with the lower planes. That being that they have not found the way/ability/time to deal with it yet. Coexisting in this nature would not include participating.

[hamishspence]

Thay usually falls into the slavery one sees in space opera serials where captured slaves are bound to work the salt mines of Omicron Persei VIII until they drop dead. Actual historical slavery was different, particularly as one moves backwards in time. Roman slaves had rights and could even buy their freedom (not actually that hard to do in many cases)

Roman slaves working the silver mines were often worked to death though. Their "rights" tend to be overplayed some.

[Beleriphon]

Roman slaves working the silver mines were often worked to death though. Their "rights" tend to be overplayed some.

You aren't wrong of course, but that doesn't change the fact that Thay uses cartoon evil, while Rome used real actual nuanced slavery, because they weren't lead by an insane undead wizard.

[SirBellias]

A Good Paladin can coexist with slavery but only in the same way that they coexist with the lower planes. That being that they have not found the way/ability/time to deal with it yet. Coexisting in this nature would not include participating.

Sorry, but this brought up the mental image of a paladin covering his eyes and ears, refusing to participate in Gehenna.

[wumpus]

A basic problem with Paladins is that they are required to act as if good and evil are black and white. If you plunk them down in a "shades of gray" campaign, bad things will happen (typically an unwarranted fall, but expect roleplaying to fall apart before then).

Another thing to consider is that in most D&D systems/worlds, property rights aren't absolute, even on "team good" (although I suppose "team law" is all for them). AD&D thieves (not yet called rogues) could be neutral good (allowing the most "good" characters to be thieves) [the banning of chaotic good seems to be a mistake: NG allowed, not CG]. If the ownership of non-sentient gold [don't tell the dwarf] can be unwillingly changed under some circumstances, certainly there is no place for ownership of unwilling PC and NPC races. Since paladins are paragons of good and only required to be lawful, freeing slaves on sight would be perfectly allowable (although they may have to atone for their chaos, which is why such campaigns and paladins shouldn't be allowed to mix).

[OldTrees1]

Sorry, but this brought up the mental image of a paladin covering his eyes and ears, refusing to participate in Gehenna.

<.< >.>
Oh, you mean young unlucky 1st level Brian! He ended up planeshifted in Gehenna after an unfortunate mishap while rescuing a villager from a lone "goblin". Well, he thought it was a goblin at the time. Probably is hiding under a rock somewhere. Hopefully his party finds a way to rescue him before a greater barghest or worse finds him. He could try to sneak into a gehennan (spelling?) town but who knows what vile work he would have to do to earn some food. Much better just to cover his eyes and ears and wait.

[Darth Ultron]

A basic problem with Paladins is that they are required to act as if good and evil are black and white. If you plunk them down in a "shades of gray" campaign, bad things will happen (typically an unwarranted fall, but expect roleplaying to fall apart before then).

Most editions of D&D are made in a default black and white world, so the paladin fits right in. If you do a ''shades of gray'' where ''everyone can do whatever they want, woo hoo!'' the paladin does not fit in at all...unless you water the class down to just ''divine knight''.

[BayardSPSR]

You aren't wrong of course, but that doesn't change the fact that Thay uses cartoon evil, while Rome used real actual nuanced slavery, because they weren't lead by an insane undead wizard.

I think hamishspence's point is that "cartoon evil" actually does describe some of the forced labor structures that have existed historically, and that actual historical slavery includes unbelievably horrific systems.

For myself, I'd like to add that the fact that Roman slavery wasn't invariably its worst self, that doesn't mean that even in its "softest" forms it wasn't something that our present idea of a good person need not have objected to the existence of. The bare facts of invading a society, taking its survivors prisoner and forcing them to work for you at threat of death or violence is an absolutely terrible thing to do, even if you let them buy their way out of it eventually.

[Arutema]

A free born paladin is born and raised in Thay; the practice of slavery is common.
How does the paladin feel about it?

Is this 3.5, or an edition with paladins of non-LG alignments?

Either way, who's his patron deity? The deity and church's views on slavery are likely to influence his.

[Malifice]

Is this 3.5, or an edition with paladins of non-LG alignments?

Either way, who's his patron deity? The deity and church's views on slavery are likely to influence his.

Indeed.

My LE Zentarim Vengance Paladin of Bane has no problems with it (he views it as a bit distasteful, and only appropriate for criminals and non Banites). The faithful should never be subject to it unless they break the law, and the punishment has been proscribed by ranking Banite clergy as penance.

Apostates and infidels should really just covert or die. Or be placed into work camps and have their property confiscated by the church. Until a more 'final solution' can be made for 'the greater good' of course.

[Spiryt]

The bare facts of invading a society, taking its survivors prisoner and forcing them to work for you at threat of death or violence is an absolutely terrible thing to do, even if you let them buy their way out of it eventually.

The catch is obviously that societies Romans were invading were also constantly doing pretty much the same. Were usually just way more 'lesser scale' about it. Didn't have such great industries to pour slaves into, obviously.

Such were realities of life that was way more harsh than today.

[Sian]

I don't see a Thayan, Born and raised in Thay, becoming a Paladin unless he flees the nation at the first chance, and then starts training as a Paladin in a neighboring nation.

That said, if the slavery is highly regimented and organized (Strict rules about how people become slaves and how slaves should be treated etc), it would trend towards being more of a LN thing ... This is how Slavery in Mulhorand is treated