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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Let's do everything in no time in D&D 3.5.

    The build: Warforged Eidetic Wizard (Battle Domain) 5/Incantatrix 10/Wyrm Wizard 1/Loremaster 1/Wyrm Wizard 1(Favor of the Martyr)/Lore Master 2
    Spoiler: Build details
    Show

    Feats:
    1. L1: Unarmored body. Feat tax for Warforged Wizards.
    2. L3: Maximize Spell. A critical Metamagic.
    3. Wizard 5: Invisible Spell. For Arcane Thesis, but also handy.
    4. Otyugh Hole: Iron Will. Prerequisite feat tax.
    5. L6: Eschew Materials. Optional. Eliminates "realism" issues related to casting infinitely many spells with a finite spell component pouch.
    6. Incantatrix 1: Cooperative Spell. For Arcane Thesis
    7. L9: Arcane Thesis[Celerity]. Extra actions anyone?
    8. Incantatrix 4: Twin Spell. A critical metamagic.
    9. L12: Arcane Thesis[Shroud of Flame]. Our absorption power source.
    10. Incantatrix 7: Energy Substitution[Cold]
    11. L15: Skill Focus(Knowledge[any]). Prerequisite feat tax.
    12. Incantatrix 10: Repeat Spell. A critical metamagic.
    13. L18: Arcane Thesis[Absorption]. Unlocks infinite spellcasting.
    14. Loremaster 3: Arcane Thesis[Timestop]. Unlocks infinite actions.

    Attributes don't matter, except we need Intelligence 20 for the Loremaster bonus feat.

    No items needed. We took Eidetic wizard so there isn't even a spellbook.

    Using this build we can initiate a Time Stop loop.
    Spoiler: The trick
    Show

    A cold start requires 3 rounds.

    Round 1: Cast Favor of the Matyr. This is a 4th level spell that eliminates the daze downside of Celerity.

    Round 2:
    1. Standard action: Cast Repeat Maximized Cooperative Invisible Absorption (RMCIA), a 9th level spell with metamagic reduction.
    2. Swift action: Cast Twin Cooperative Invisible Celerity to get 2 standard actions this round. This is a 4th level spell.
      1. Standard action: Cast Repeat Twin Esub[cold] Cooperative Invisble Shroud of Flame (RTECISoF) targeting yourself. This is a 5th level spell that charges up Absorption to free cast up to a 10th level spell.
      2. Standard action: Free Cast Shapechange.
    3. Free action: Shapechange[Chronotyryn].

    Round 3:
    1. no action: Maximized Absorption repeated.
    2. no action: RTECISoF repeated charging Maximized Absorption
    3. Standard action: Free cast RMCIA
    4. Chronotyryn Standard action: Cast RTECISoF charging Maximized Absorption
    5. Swift action: Cast Repeat Invisible Celerity (RIC) for one standard actions this round and 1 standard action next round
      1. Standard action: Free Cast Maximized Invisible Time Stop (MITS) to get 5 rounds of apparent time. This is a 9th level spell.

    At this point, you start acting in apparent time while the world blinks. The first round of apparent time looks like this:
    1. no action: Maximized Absorption repeated.
    2. no action: RTECISoF repeated charging Maximized Absorption
    3. no action: Celerity repeated
      1. Standard action: Free cast RMCIA
    4. Standard action: Cast RTECISoF charging Maximized Absorption
    5. Chronotyryn Standard action: Free cast Repeat Lucubration (RL) to recover one chosen L5- spell.

    And the next like this:
    1. no action: Maximized Absorption repeated.
    2. no action: RTECISoF repeated charging Maximized Absorption.
    3. no action: Lucubration repeated recovering one L5- spell.
    4. Standard action: Free cast RMCIA.
    5. Chronotyryn Standard action: Cast RTECISoF charging Maximized Absorption
    6. Swift action: Cast RIC to get 1 standard actions this round and 1 standard actions next round.
      1. Standard action: Free cast RL to recover one chosen L5- spell.

    This repeats indefinitely, occasionally casting MITS or other spells instead of RL.

    Using this loop, every round we can cast one spell of any level for free. Every 5th round we must cast Maximized Time Stop. We need to cast one L5 spell to charge absorption every round and one L5 spell every other round to get enough actions. Hence, over 10 rounds we can cast 2x maximized Time Stop and 8x Repeat Lucubration while powering the loop with 15 L5 spells. Since 8x Repeat Lucubration recovers 16 L5- spells and we only use 15 L5- spells, We never run out of spells. We can also:
    1. Recover an extra L5- spell every 10 rounds.
    2. Cast any full-round or less spell for free every 20 rounds of apparent time. That is: 720 free spells / day of apparent time.
    3. Move.

    How long can this go on? Forever (and in no time at all)
    1. We can cast Favor the Martyr every 19 minutes (190 rounds) for free to keep it always up.
    2. We can cast Shapechange every 190 minutes (1900 rounds) for free to keep it always up.
    3. As a Warforged, there is no need to sleep, eat, or breath.
    4. As a Warforged, there is no age limit.

    What is the cost of doing this? The initial casting of Absorption is not free so we must memorize 2x Repeat Maximized Absorption, Shapechange, and Maximized Time Stop with level 9 slots, Repeat Lucubration with a level 8 slot, 3x Repeat Twin ESubst[cold] Cooperative Invisible Shroud of Flame with level 5 slots, and Twin Cooperative Invisible Celerity, Repeat Invisible Celerity, and Favor of the Martyr with level 4 slots.

    Two tricks enhance this further.

    The spell Rary's Arcane Conversion allows you to exchange any wizard spell for any other spell of the same level or less. To take full advantage of this, we need a free wizard spell slot at every level. The only difficult level is 9 for which exactly one extra spell slot is available since Time Stop comes from the Battle Domain.

    Normally, you cannot effect a creature while in Time Stop. However, by using ready actions at the end of Time Stop we can affect creatures just after Time Stop ends, but before they can act, then resume Time Stop.
    Spoiler: Killer Time Stop
    Show
    This is slightly tricky because ready actions happen before their condition, ready actions alter initiative, and Repeat Spell is initiative dependent. Ready action resets your initiative to when it goes off in the next (real-time) round while Repeat Spell goes off "at the beginning of your turn" (i.e. before you act). Let's also use metamagic spell abbreviations from the Time Stop loop above (RIC, RMCIA, RTECISoF, MITS). Let's assume that in the last round of Time Stop we did not cast RIC since that can always be arranged. The sequence looks like this:
    1. Swift action: Cast Celerity granting a standard action this turn.
      1. Ready Action, Condition: Any action, Action: Free Cast RMCIA.
    2. No action: Time Stop ends.
    3. No action: Maximized Absorption repeated.
    4. No action: RTECISoF repeated charging Maximized Absorption.
    5. No action: Lucubration repeated, recovering an L5- spell.
    6. Triggered Action: Free Cast RMCIA (This reset your initiative. All repeat spells must go off before it.)
    7. Immediate Action: cast TCIC granting two standard actions this turn. (This triggers the ready action and is cast before anyone else acts.)
      1. Standard action: <any standard>
      2. Standard action: Cast RTECISoF charging Maximized Absorption
    8. Chronotyryn Immediate action: cast Celerity granting a standard action.
      1. Standard action: cast MITS.

    At this point Time Stop resumes.

    We have infinite actions and infinite spells but Timestop still imposes limitations.
    Spoiler: Time Stop Limitations
    Show

    Quote Originally Posted by Time Stop
    Normal and magical fire, cold, gas, and the like can still harm you.
    Planar Bubble (3 hour duration), Energy Immunity (24 hour duration), and various other spells resist essentially all environmental effects and are easily recast as needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Time Stop
    ...other creatures are invulnerable to your attacks and spells; you cannot target such creatures with any attack or spell.
    Using the Killer Time Stop loop above, we can cast (and later recover) any L5- spell. Pretty much every creature is vulnerable to some L5- spell.
    Quote Originally Posted by Time Stop
    You cannot move or harm items held, carried, or worn by a creature stuck in normal time...
    This can be avoided by converting a creature into a corpse with a sufficient number of L5- spells.
    Quote Originally Posted by Time Stop
    You cannot enter an area protected by an antimagic field...
    You can however cast Disjunction as often as desired, eventually eliminating any AMF.

    The surviving limitation are:
    1. We cannot effect creatures with L6+ spells or in ways requiring more than a standard action.
    2. We cannot take or harm a creature's items unless we kill it first. Not even Disjunction works.
    3. We cannot cast spells with expensive material components, XP costs, or other expenditure requirements.
    4. We cannot cast spells with more than a full-round casting time.

    While these are significant, they still leave many possibilities. Interesting options include:
    1. Disintegrate a planet.
    2. End a wight apocalypse.
    3. Dispel every spell.

    There are a few other proposed approaches for infinite spells which require either breaking the rules or a permissive interpretation depending on your point of view.
    Spoiler: Not Infinite spells
    Show

    Spoiler: Sanctum Arcane Fusion
    Show

    Use Arcane Fusion to cast Sanctum Arcane Fusion and a level 1- spell. Since the effect of Sanctum spell (away from your sanctuary) is to lower the level of a spell by one, Sanctum Arcane Fusion qualifies as a 4thlevel spell which you can cast inside (Greater) Arcane Fusion.

    This approach is counter to RAW because Arcane Fusion was errataed to allow casting of metamagic so long as the metamagic-adjusted spell level is level 4-. However, the metamagic adjusted spell level of Sanctum (Greater) Arcane Fusion is 5th (or 8th). See here for a more detailed discussion.


    Spoiler: Priya the Prismatic Priestess
    Show

    Here.
    Use Spelldancing with Maximized Repeat Twin Timestop and Repeat Maximized Absorption to cast all spells desired inside of timestop.

    If 'apparent rounds' is an effect of Time Stop, then the effect of Maximized Repeat Twin Time Stop is 5 rounds of apparent time, not 20 due to stacking effects rules. Maximize (which only works on effects!) turns 1d4+1 rounds into 5 rounds. Twin Spell does nothing. If Repeat spell goes off at the beginning of your next apparent turn (i.e. the first turn in the first Time Stop) then the two overlapping Time Stops provide the same effect twice implying no change to the number of rounds of apparent time. If the Repeat Time Stop goes off at the beginnning of the caster's turn in the next real-time round there is an opportunity for the world to act for one round between Time Stops.

    A similar issue exists with Absorption. If Absorption capacity is an effect, then Maximized Absorption provides capacity for 10 spell levels while Twin does nothing. Repeat only works if the absorption capacity is used before the repeated spell is cast.

    Altogether, it's clearly impossible to use Priya since Repeat Maximized Absorption requires 6 rounds of Spelldancing while Maximized Time Stop requires 5.

    The Absorption charging mechanism is also problematic. Priya lists (persisted) Glorious Master of the Elements, Stormrage, and Celestial Aspect. Absorption says:
    Quote Originally Posted by Absorption
    Absorption absorbs only ranged spells that have you as a target.
    while all of these spells allow launching multiple ranged attacks, only GMotE is actually a ranged spell according to it's stat block. GMotE has a text clashing with the description so what it does precisely is unclear. The effects of Absorption are also somewhat murky. Does it capture all of the spell energy, hence blocking effects on other targets? Or does it just block the spell from effecting you? The rod of absorption is more narrowly targeting (only applying to single-target spells) and has a clearer effect (nullifying the spell).


    Spoiler: Modified Priya
    Show

    Below Cruiser1 suggests a modified version of Priya could work. Overall, this seems to still require a permissive interpretation of the rules, but the approach can address some of the issues.

    The modification is to use Repeat Empower Absorption with Shapechange[Chronotyryn] (for dual actions) and persistent Arcane Surge. Repeat Empower only requires 5 rounds to Spelldance. If we neglect issues of Absorption charging, this approach allows creating a Time Stop loop since a Chronotyryn can simultaneously Spelldance a Maximized Time Stop to go off at the end of round 5 just after Repeat Empower Absorption is cast (and charged). However, this clearly does not allow for casting multiple Repeat Empowered Absorptions per Time Stop, a prerequisite for the ability to cast any spell for free. Instead, the best case is being able to cast level 6- spells for free (Maximum Absorption capacity = 15 - 9 for Time Stop or Absorption = 6). This can be fixed by reducing metamagic costs via Incantatrix 10 (for example). A Spelldancer 1/Incantatrix 10 could cast Repeat Empowered Absorption in 3 rounds and Maximized Empowered Time Stop in 3 rounds granting at least 6 rounds of apparent time, implying any spell level 9 or less can be cast for free in a Time Stop.

    To address Absorption charging issues you could try to use Repeat Maximized Empowered Absorption which has a minimum of 10+3-9 = 4 levels of unused absorption capacity. This would require something like a Spelldancer 1/Incantatrix 10/Halruuan Elder 4 to reduce the rounds of spelldance to 3 with Adroit Casting for Maximize Spell and Repeat Spell. A Twin Sanctum Heightened spell cast in your sanctum with Earth Spell by an Illumian with Improved Sigil(Krau) could turn this into 14 levels to power Absorption with 3 rounds of Spelldancing by an Incantatrix 10. Unfortunately, there seems to be no way to make this work w.r.t. action economy since you need to cast Absorption, an Absorption charging spell, and Time Stop all in the same round and all of these would require Spell Dancing in advance. You can't spelldance for 3 spells simultaneously with Dual Actions: 2 is the maximum.

    I don't see any way to execute Killer Time Stop effects. In essence, you fundamentally cannot wait until Time Stop ends to cast Time Stop because initiative is reset to the point where a readied or delayed action executes. This implies Absorption is repeated before you can cast Time Stop which implies you don't have a charged Absorption to cast the next Absorption. The clockworks wizard gets around this by casting a Repeat Maximized Absorption, charging the Absorption, and then casting Time Stop between when the Time Stop ends and anyone else acts.


    Spoiler: The Perpetual Motion Wizard
    Show

    Here.
    This was my previous attempt. It still relies on nested Time Stop for accumulation of apparent rounds. If nested Time Stop does not accumulate apparent rounds due to the "Same Effect More than Once in Different Strengths" rule then this does not work.

    It also relies on Lucubration to allow a familiar to recover a cast spell that was granted via Imbue Familiar with Spell. This application might work, but it is a nonstandard use of the spell and hence might not. The conservative ruling is that it does not.


    Spoiler: sources
    Show

    Required:
    1. Player's Handbook: Wizard, Eschew Materials, Maximize Spell, Timestop, Lucubration, Charm Monster, Featherfall
    2. Player's Guide to Faerun: Incantatrix
    3. DMG: Loremaster
    4. Dragon Magic: Wyrm Wizard
    5. Complete Arcane: Twin Spell, Repeat Spell, Cooperative Spell, Energy Substitution
    6. Cityscape: Invisible Spell
    7. Spell Compendium: Absorption, Shroud of Flame
    8. PHB II: Celerity, Arcane Thesis
    9. Fiend Folio: Chronotyryn


    Optional:
    1. Complete Mage: Rary's Arcane Conversion (Handy but not strictly necessary)
    2. Complete Scoundrel: Otyugh Hole. (Feat slots could be salvaged by dropping Eschew Materials or avoiding Unarmored Body through the Twilight armor enhancement)
    3. Races of Eberron: Unarmored Body (We could use Twilight armor enhancement instead)
    4. Dragon 357: Eidetic Wizard (not really needed, but nice to zero out possessions)
    5. Unearthed Arcana: Battle Domain (Int 28 for a bonus 9th level spell works instead)


    For variants, it is possible to use Archivist/Dweomer Keeper with Alternative Spell instead of Wizard/Incantatrix. It's also possible to substitute undead for warforged.
    Last edited by Anthrowhale; 2017-04-07 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Removed Arcane Fusion Dependence, added Killer Time Stop details, sanitized ready action use, expanded on issues with Priya, added modified Priya speculation
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    A Dragonborn Warforged loses his armored plating. You can skip Unarmored Body. The FAQ says Dragonborn doesn't change a creature's type.
    Last edited by Endarire; 2016-08-08 at 01:06 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GPuzzle View Post
    And I do agree that the right answer to the magic/mundane problem is to make everyone badass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    If you're of a philosophical bent, the powergamer is a great example of Heidegger's modern technological man, who treats a game's mechanics as a standing reserve of undifferentiated resources that are to be used for his goals.
    My Complete Tome of Battle Maneuver/Stance/Class Overhaul

    Arseplomancy = Fanatic Tarrasque!

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Concerning

    We cannot take or harm a creature's items unless we kill it first. Not even Disjunction works.
    You can't kill anything while the timestop is still in effect, so that limitation remains?

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    1. Technically not no-time, because arbitrarily large amounts of Time Stop slows time only at an arbitrarily large rate.
    2. 8-round God (somewhere ITP, hard to link in mobile) can technically do the Legit no-time with judicious applications of Innate Spell (Celerity) and Spell Stowaway (Celerity) pre-epic. Arbitrarily many actions,arbitrarily many spells metamagicked in every possible permutation via Metametamagicked Absorption and multiple clones via infinite Body Outside Body producing arbitrarily high spellcraft and any arbitrary temporary metamagic feat gain.
    3. RAW contentions and arbitrariness arguments are quite cute, considering you need to be a multiclass Sorcerer if you want to have Arcane Fusion to have any effect at all by RAW.


    Of course, aside from the 8-round god, The Naughty Sorceress (somewhere in my sig...too lazy to link in mobile) can also do the infinite spells/actions/whatever trick by virtue of being any past, present, and future TO/PO build.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by Aharon View Post
    You can't kill anything while the timestop is still in effect, so that limitation remains?
    You can use ready actions from the last round of Time Stop to execute a spell in real time (condition: when anyone acts) then cast a free Time Stop to resume apparent time. Nearly every creature is vulnerable to a sufficient number of applications of L5- spells, so they can be converted into a corpse. Worth describing in more detail?
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Planetar

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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Yes, conditionally on that working, you can get their items. But you still can't do anything to/with them while in the time stop.

    Concerning the whole trick working:

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    You can use ready actions from the last round of Time Stop to execute a spell in real time (condition: when anyone acts) then cast a free Time Stop to resume apparent time. Nearly every creature is vulnerable to a sufficient number of applications of L5- spells, so they can be converted into a corpse. Worth describing in more detail?
    Yes, please. I don't understand how you get around the rules about readying actions (bolding mine). By my reading, your readied actions will vanish when you ready another action?

    Quote Originally Posted by SRD
    Readying an Action

    You can ready a standard action, a move action, or a free action. To do so, specify the action you will take and the conditions under which you will take it. Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition. The action occurs just before the action that triggers it. If the triggered action is part of another characterís activities, you interrupt the other character. Assuming he is still capable of doing so, he continues his actions once you complete your readied action. Your initiative result changes. For the rest of the encounter, your initiative result is the count on which you took the readied action, and you act immediately ahead of the character whose action triggered your readied action.

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    A Dragonborn Warforged loses his armored plating. You can skip Unarmored Body. The FAQ says Dragonborn doesn't change a creature's type.
    This is a nice observation, but there is a concern: Dragonborn die of old age. This clashes with type and subtype so there is a "which is more specific?" question to answer. I could see this going either way, but there is at least a good argument that the template is more specific than the type.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    2. 8-round God (somewhere ITP, hard to link in mobile) can technically do the Legit no-time with judicious applications of Innate Spell (Celerity) and Spell Stowaway (Celerity) pre-epic.
    here. I have to agree with Urpriest: the use of Sense Void for a 1000' ranged touch seems egregioius.

    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    3. RAW contentions and arbitrariness arguments are quite cute, considering you need to be a multiclass Sorcerer if you want to have Arcane Fusion to have any effect at all by RAW.
    You'll have to explain. What I see is:
    Quote Originally Posted by Arcane Fusion
    ... choose any 1st-level sorcerer spell you know and any 4th-level or lower sorcerer spell you know ...
    Since most of the spells a wizard knows are also sorcerer spells I don't see a problem.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    That "any sorcerer spell you know" bit is a bit ambiguous. It could mean "any spell you know that is on the sorcerer spell list", or it could mean "any spell occupying your sorcerer spells known slots". My local group has unofficially ruled the latter, to the mild inconvenience of my spellwarp sniper (although he doesn't have too much use for his level 1 spellthief spell slots at level 27).

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedSorcererGirl

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    smile Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Priya the Prismatic Priestess
    Here.
    Use Spelldancing with Maximized Repeat Twin Timestop and Repeat Maximized Absorption to cast all spells desired inside of timestop.
    The conservative ruling is that Twin Repeat Maximized Time Stop provides only 5 rounds of apparent time.
    This restrictive ruling doesn't stop Priya the Prismatic Priestess from working. That build says she can do her buffing twice as fast when Shapechanged into a Chronotyryn. Concerning the Chronotyryn, "It can take 2 rounds' worth of actions in any given round, as if it were two creatures." (That means casting 2 spells, doing 2 round of Spelldancing, etc.) More specifically:

    Casting just a Maximized Time Stop as a Chronotyryn gives 5x2=10 free rounds of effective actions, and uses 3 rounds of Spelldancing, resulting in 10-3=7 rounds of actions profit. Do it twice so you have 14 free rounds. Use 10 of those rounds to Spelldance a Maximized Twin Repeat Absorption, giving you 4 free spells. Use the last 4 rounds to cast 4 spells: 3 of those free spells are used to cast Absorption and the two Time Stops. Use the last free spell to cast Miracle to apply a buff or do whatever else you want. This allows 1 free buff or other action to be performed every 28 rounds on average, while keeping the infinite Time Stop going.

  10. - Top - End - #10
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    This restrictive ruling doesn't stop Priya the Prismatic Priestess from working.
    It does, actually. This step:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    Do it twice so you have 14 free rounds.
    Doesn't work since stacking effects rules imply you can get at most 5 rounds of "apparent time".

    The same objection would nerf this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    ...Maximized Twin Repeat Absorption...
    Down to a Maximized Repeat Absorption which must be charged and discharged before your next turn begins. The idea here is that absorption capacity is an effect so Maximized Twin Absorption has only absorption capacity 10. Furthermore, absorption must be charged before your next round begins or the Repeat Maximized Absorption does nothing more than Maximized Absorption.

    In any case, this build is certainly using ideas from Priya, so thanks for that.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

  11. - Top - End - #11
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    RedSorcererGirl

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    smile Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    This step:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1
    Do it twice so you have 14 free rounds.
    Doesn't work since stacking effects rules imply you can get at most 5 rounds of "apparent time".
    This should work because Priya casts each Maximized Time Stop at the very end of the previous Time Stop (which we know when it happens because it's exactly 5 rounds). The new casting replaces the old casting, refreshing and resetting to 5 free rounds of actions (effectively 10 as Chronotyryn). The "do it twice so you have 14 free rounds" is only referring to total duration covered by her set of actions, and not that Priya is doing it twice in a row immediately (like as if she had cast Twin Time Stop).

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    The same objection would nerf this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1
    ...Maximized Twin Repeat Absorption...
    Down to a Maximized Repeat Absorption which must be charged and discharged before your next turn begins. The idea here is that absorption capacity is an effect so Maximized Twin Absorption has only absorption capacity 10. Furthermore, absorption must be charged before your next round begins or the Repeat Maximized Absorption does nothing more than Maximized Absorption.
    Actually, Priya doesn't rely on Twin Absorption working (two at the same time), but only Repeat Absorption (another casting next round). The original Priya build in the "Infinite buffing" section says, "Note this works even if one rules that multiple castings of Absorption replace each other, because Repeat Spell casts the spell separately again at the beginning of the next round, and one can cast a free spell using the first Absorption instance before the second instance gets cast." Absorption gets charged as soon as it's cast, via her familiar who's in the Time Stop with her via Shared Spells.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    In any case, this build is certainly using ideas from Priya, so thanks for that.
    You're welcome and it's nice to see your build that's a similar concept. Priya is a bold high level build for infinite 9th level spells. Other spell refreshing methods like Mage's Lucubration (recall 5th level spell) or Mnemonic Enhancer (recall 3rd level spell) can potentially be used to get infinite lower level spells, and it's nice to see an implementation of that here.

  12. - Top - End - #12
    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    This should work because Priya casts each Maximized Time Stop at the very end of the previous Time Stop (which we know when it happens because it's exactly 5 rounds).
    Agreed, that works.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    Actually, Priya doesn't rely on Twin Absorption working (two at the same time), but only Repeat Absorption (another casting next round).
    I don't see how to make it work. There are three issues:
    1. The time budget doesn't balance. In any cycle you must use a Repeat Maximized Absorption to power another Repeat Maximized Absorption and cover the time required with a Maximized Time Stop. Casting Maximized Timestop takes 3 full-round actions + 1 standard action. Casting Repeat Maximized Absorption takes 6 full-round actions + 1 standard action. That is 9 full-round actions + 2 standard actions. A Chronotyryn(sp?) gets 10 full-round actions which is not enough.
    2. The familiar power supply. Priya lists Glorious Master of the Elements, Stormrage, and Celestial Aspect as potential sources. Absorption is particular: "Absorption absorbs only ranged spells that have you as a target." Stormrage and Celestial Aspect are not technically ranged spells. GMotE is hard to understand. It has a 60' range and targets "one creature" but the text is in conflict.... it seems hard to reconcile. Anyways, my impression is that this requires a rather permissive environment which is not what I'm aiming for---I want something that unquestionably works.
    3. Even with the above addressed, I'd like to see a specific detailed sequence of steps, as in the OP here. There are subtle constraints of timing which can't be verified until you see the sequence.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by bahamut920 View Post
    That "any sorcerer spell you know" bit is a bit ambiguous.
    Quote Originally Posted by ben-zayb View Post
    3. RAW contentions and arbitrariness arguments are quite cute, considering you need to be a multiclass Sorcerer if you want to have Arcane Fusion to have any effect at all by RAW.
    All right, I realized I could eliminate the dependence on Arcane Fusion which ends up simplifying the build. The OP is tweaked now and I believe there is nothing that is ambiguous in the build.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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    smile Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    I don't see how to make it work. The time budget doesn't balance. Casting Maximized Timestop takes 3 full-round actions + 1 standard action. Casting Repeat Maximized Absorption takes 6 full-round actions + 1 standard action. That is 9 full-round actions + 2 standard actions. A Chronotyryn(sp?) gets 10 full-round actions which is not enough.
    Priya is no ordinary caster, but a Sorceress persistomancer! One of her listed buffs is Arcane Spellsurge (DM). That means all her standard action spells are cast as swift actions. Therefore the above only requires 9 full-round actions, which fits within the Chronotyryn's 10 free full-round actions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    The familiar power supply. Priya lists Glorious Master of the Elements, Stormrage, and Celestial Aspect as potential sources. Absorption is particular: "Absorption absorbs only ranged spells that have you as a target."
    The Absorption (SC) spell says "Spells and spell-like effects that target you are absorbed". Absorption doesn't say the CASTING of the spell has to target you, but rather only the spell itself. That means if a spell gives you a buff that allows you to target somebody with effects for the duration of the buff, then those targeted effects (coming from the spell) should be absorbed.

    Buffs (which may be self-only) that give you a temporary special ability to further target effects are an interesting case. Exactly what are those effects? The effects aren't spells (since they aren't cast and can't be counterspelled), and aren't Su abilities (since they come from a spell, and unlike Su abilities spell-resistance applies to them). Therefore they have to be spell-like abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthrowhale View Post
    Even with the above addressed, I'd like to see a specific detailed sequence of steps, as in the OP here. There are subtle constraints of timing which can't be verified until you see the sequence.
    Note that in a world where Twin Time Stop and Repeat Time Stop are ruled to not work, Priya just takes Empower Spell as a feat (the build effectively has up to 6 unused feat slots). On average Empower Spell adds 5 free rounds (same as Maximize). The (1d4+1)x1.5 rounding down gives one of 3,4,6,7 rounds. Even the worst case of 3 rounds is profitable, because it only requires 2 rounds of Spelldancing to add in Empower Spell, and gives 1 round profit (2 as a Chronotyryn) each time the loop is done.

    Speaking of Empower Spell, Priya can also gain a round by casting Empowered Absorption, instead of Maximized Absorption. Absorption absorbs 1d4+6 spell levels. Maximized gives 10 levels, and Empowered gives (1d4+6)x1.5 = one of 10,12,13,15 levels which is at least as good.

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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    Therefore the above only requires 9 full-round actions, which fits within the Chronotyryn's 10 free full-round actions.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    The Absorption (SC) spell says "Spells and spell-like effects that target you are absorbed". ...
    The question is not "Does there exist a RAW-consistent interpretation which allows Priya to cast infinite spells?" but rather "Do all RAW-consistent interpretations allow Priya to cast infinite spells?" The answer is "yes", to the first, but "no" to the second. The RAW-consistent interpretation is to look at the most restrictive targeting:
    Quote Originally Posted by Absorption
    Absorption absorbs only ranged spells that have you as a target.
    and use the "Target:" and "Range:" lines in a spell description to resolve validity. I find it easy to believe this is the way some people read the rules.

    There is another reading inconsistent with Priya: maybe absorption absorbs the entire spell in the same sense that a targeted dispel eliminates an entire spell? The wording is certainly consistent with this understanding, and under this understanding GMotE ends early if used in an attack against Absorption.

    Either way, there are clearly RAW-consistent interpretations of the mechanics which make Priya not work. Achieving the uncontroversial solution is tricky---it is why I eliminated Arcane Fusion from the Clockwork Wizard (some people up thread dispute whether it works for a Wizard). Similarly using Shroud of Flame should be something that everyone agrees on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    Note that in a world where Twin Time Stop and Repeat Time Stop are ruled to not work, Priya just takes Empower Spell as a feat (the build effectively has up to 6 unused feat slots).
    I think we are getting closer. By modifying Priya to work with a more conservative understanding of RAW you are agreeing with me that Priya requires something permissive.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    On average Empower Spell adds 5 free rounds (same as Maximize). The (1d4+1)x1.5 rounding down gives one of 3,4,6,7 rounds. Even the worst case of 3 rounds is profitable, because it only requires 2 rounds of Spelldancing to add in Empower Spell, and gives 1 round profit (2 as a Chronotyryn) each time the loop is done.
    Actually, it's a 1 round loss. Empower spell converts 2 rounds into 3 (giving one extra round) at the cost of 2 rounds of spelldancing. If you want to use the cycle an unbounded number of times, you must assume the worst case outcome over randomization.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cruiser1 View Post
    Speaking of Empower Spell, Priya can also gain a round by casting Empowered Absorption, instead of Maximized Absorption.
    Agreed. Now, can you make a complete specification of how the modified Priya can cast unbounded spells in no time with a conservative understanding of RAW?
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by Aharon View Post
    Yes, please. I don't understand how you get around the rules about readying actions (bolding mine). By my reading, your readied actions will vanish when you ready another action?
    I've added a "Killer Time Stop" entry to the above which details how to fluctuate in and out of Time Stop so as to execute any chosen action out of Time Stop, then re-enter Time Stop.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ready Actions
    Then, any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition.
    I was reading this as "any time before your next [initiative] action", but I do see how this could be read to forbid taking any action (immediate, standard, etc...) while using a readied action.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Would taking flaws for feats help notably?
    Quote Originally Posted by GPuzzle View Post
    And I do agree that the right answer to the magic/mundane problem is to make everyone badass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    Would taking flaws for feats help notably?
    Maybe.

    I'm concerned by Aharon's criticism---it seems plausibly valid to rule that a ready action ends if you take any other action (standard, move, swift, immediate, or free). Fixing that requires either more feats or more cleverness.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    I've modified the build eliminate all issues with ready actions using Chronotyryn. This eliminates all RAW objections that I'm aware of.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    I detailed my best understanding of Cruiser1's suggested modified Priya in the OP. Overall, I still don't see how to make it effectively work, but it does address some of the issues with Priya.
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Having briefly reread the readied action rules, I see nothing explicitly preventing you from taking other actions while you have an action readied, assuming you can take said extra actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by GPuzzle View Post
    And I do agree that the right answer to the magic/mundane problem is to make everyone badass.
    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    If you're of a philosophical bent, the powergamer is a great example of Heidegger's modern technological man, who treats a game's mechanics as a standing reserve of undifferentiated resources that are to be used for his goals.
    My Complete Tome of Battle Maneuver/Stance/Class Overhaul

    Arseplomancy = Fanatic Tarrasque!

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    Default Re: The Clockwork Wizard: Everything in no time

    Quote Originally Posted by Endarire View Post
    Having briefly reread the readied action rules, I see nothing explicitly preventing you from taking other actions while you have an action readied, assuming you can take said extra actions.
    It could go either way.
    Quote Originally Posted by ready
    ...any time before your next action, you may take the readied action in response to that condition...If you come to your next action and have not yet performed your readied action, you donít get to take the readied action (though you can ready the same action again).
    The first part makes me think that if you take an off-turn immediate action you can no longer take the readied action. The parentheses make me think that there was an editor failure where they should have said "next turn" instead of "next action".
    ExFighter: Immunity to Wizard
    Stutter Caster: Eliminate all spell defenses (SR, Save, AC).
    The Clockwork Wizard: All spells in no time.
    Piercing Immunities: Uncounterable Counters.
    Planar Soldiers of Mystra: Invincibility from planar traits.
    A Core Only Fighter 20 that kills things

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