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  1. - Top - End - #1
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Force damage for martial (offense and defense): too powerful?

    Hi all!

    In my ongoing homebrew class design, which is based on the idea of martial empowering their techniques with Elemental energy, I've been a bit stuck as to what associate to Wind and Earth.
    Since there are no associated damage types in PHB, I thought about choosing either acid or poison for Earth (the closest thematically) and force for Wind (because lightning/thunder are already taken).

    But while I know that many creatures are resistant/immune to acid or poison, making Earth borderline underpowered, I'm afraid that putting force for Wind would be too powerful.
    Basically, how could they use it?
    - Reaction techniques similar to Absorb Element or Thunderwave in their effect (either halving damage and keeping some as bonus damage on next attack, or suffering all damage but make around creature also be affected).
    - Imbuing their weapon to change damage type, meaning it would deal force damage instead of usual physical damage (they get only 2 attacks per Attack action until level 13 or so, and don't get proficiency in heavy weapons before level 9 or so).

    So...
    1. Would allowing a character to deal force damage on weapon attacks be too powerful by principle? Or would it be acceptable as long as it is a high-level feature?
    Spoiler: My take on it
    Show

    Characters of this class can choose which Element to use with their techniques, so chances are they will always find a way to circumvent a creature's immunity.
    Also, magic weapons are common, so as far as physical immunity is concerned, I should not break anything.
    Still, I'm not familiar with creatures that are immune to almost everything except force damage, apart that they are very few.

    My main argument for saying "it's not too powerful" is that Warlock gets the best damaging cantrip in the game, which is force-based.


    2. Would allowing a character to halve force damage from spells be too powerful by principle? Or would it be acceptable as long as it is a limited resource?
    Spoiler: My opinion on it
    Show

    Here resides my main concern. I don't have in memory all force-dealing spells, but I guess most of them are high-level, so I'm afraid that even just halving damage would be too powerful, whether it would cost a resource such as a spell slot or not.


    Thank you all for all the input you could provide.

  2. - Top - End - #2
    Orc in the Playground
     
    NecromancerGirl

    Join Date
    Feb 2014

    Default Re: Force damage for martial (offense and defense): too powerful?

    So, i made a class called Rune Blade that harnesses a ton if elemental things. For earth consider additional bludgeoning damage that penetrates DR and for Wind piercing damage with slightly improved range. Just my thoughts on the elemental issue

  3. - Top - End - #3
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Flumph

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: Force damage for martial (offense and defense): too powerful?

    1. In reality force damage has a little more potency in dealing full damage than magical bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage and like it force vulnerability is almost non-existant. Mechanically it isn't all that significant. Thematically though force damage isn't an element by any stretch. It is an inter-dimensional energy that is removed from material nature all together. So, I would definitely refrain from giving it to them if it doesn't make sense.
    2. Yes that could be an issue, but if Earth has other benefits such as defenses or other control that others don't than the inferior damage type just tails back Earth. As such this template needs to be altered for each element.

  4. - Top - End - #4
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    In a dungeon somewhere
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Force damage for martial (offense and defense): too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Hi all!

    In my ongoing homebrew class design, which is based on the idea of martial empowering their techniques with Elemental energy, I've been a bit stuck as to what associate to Wind and Earth.
    Since there are no associated damage types in PHB, I thought about choosing either acid or poison for Earth (the closest thematically) and force for Wind (because lightning/thunder are already taken).

    But while I know that many creatures are resistant/immune to acid or poison, making Earth borderline underpowered, I'm afraid that putting force for Wind would be too powerful.
    Basically, how could they use it?
    - Reaction techniques similar to Absorb Element or Thunderwave in their effect (either halving damage and keeping some as bonus damage on next attack, or suffering all damage but make around creature also be affected).
    - Imbuing their weapon to change damage type, meaning it would deal force damage instead of usual physical damage (they get only 2 attacks per Attack action until level 13 or so, and don't get proficiency in heavy weapons before level 9 or so).

    So...
    1. Would allowing a character to deal force damage on weapon attacks be too powerful by principle? Or would it be acceptable as long as it is a high-level feature?
    Spoiler: My take on it
    Show

    Characters of this class can choose which Element to use with their techniques, so chances are they will always find a way to circumvent a creature's immunity.
    Also, magic weapons are common, so as far as physical immunity is concerned, I should not break anything.
    Still, I'm not familiar with creatures that are immune to almost everything except force damage, apart that they are very few.

    My main argument for saying "it's not too powerful" is that Warlock gets the best damaging cantrip in the game, which is force-based.


    2. Would allowing a character to halve force damage from spells be too powerful by principle? Or would it be acceptable as long as it is a limited resource?
    Spoiler: My opinion on it
    Show

    Here resides my main concern. I don't have in memory all force-dealing spells, but I guess most of them are high-level, so I'm afraid that even just halving damage would be too powerful, whether it would cost a resource such as a spell slot or not.


    Thank you all for all the input you could provide.
    Allowing force damage isn't OP, even from 1st level. Otherwise the Warlock wouldn't get it as their main attack option.

  5. - Top - End - #5
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Amechra's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2010
    Location
    Where I live.

    Default Re: Force damage for martial (offense and defense): too powerful?

    Wait, who took Electricity/Sonic damage?
    Last edited by Amechra; 2016-08-13 at 03:02 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #6
    Troll in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Jun 2015

    Default Re: Force damage for martial (offense and defense): too powerful?

    Thanks all for quick replies.

    Quote Originally Posted by PapaQuackers View Post
    So, i made a class called Rune Blade that harnesses a ton if elemental things. For earth consider additional bludgeoning damage that penetrates DR and for Wind piercing damage with slightly improved range. Just my thoughts on the elemental issue
    If I had designed only "imbued weapon" techniques I could have done that.
    However, the originating idea, which I kept and expanded, was to make a class whose main strength is diverting/controlling elemental energy, especially the ones coming from harmful spells. As such, I created several reaction features, and several original techniques.

    And that's one of the main problems: spells that could be easily associated with Wind or Earth deal sometimes bludgeoning, sometimes piercing, sometimes slashing...
    Same goes with techniques you create: if you know how to manipulate Wind or Earth, it would not make much sense that you are restricted to a particular shape/type.

    But just associating "physical" with Wind and Earth seemed meh to me, like, lacking fluff.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amnoriath View Post
    1. In reality force damage has a little more potency in dealing full damage than magical bludgeoning, piercing, or slashing damage and like it force vulnerability is almost non-existant. Mechanically it isn't all that significant. Thematically though force damage isn't an element by any stretch. It is an inter-dimensional energy that is removed from material nature all together. So, I would definitely refrain from giving it to them if it doesn't make sense.
    2. Yes that could be an issue, but if Earth has other benefits such as defenses or other control that others don't than the inferior damage type just tails back Earth. As such this template needs to be altered for each element.
    I am aware of that. :/ Force is basically the closest to "pure magic" we could consider in D&d setting. But as said above, alternative is either telling Wind=physical (not thrilling) or creating a new type of damage (which would be extremely powerful since no creature would be resistant/immune).

    So, since strong wind make effect without us actually seeing them, just feeling the cinetic force, I thought maybe it wasn't that far a stretch... But maybe I'm wrong after all. ;)

    Quote Originally Posted by DracoKnight View Post
    Allowing force damage isn't OP, even from 1st level. Otherwise the Warlock wouldn't get it as their main attack option.
    Thanks for this confirmation. :)

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Dec 2013

    Default Re: Force damage for martial (offense and defense): too powerful?

    Alternatively, you could create earth, air, and water damage. MM entries would change a bit, but it would be a much more seamless system.

  8. - Top - End - #8
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    BlackDragon

    Join Date
    Sep 2015

    Default Re: Force damage for martial (offense and defense): too powerful?

    Quote Originally Posted by Citan View Post
    Hi all!

    In my ongoing homebrew class design, which is based on the idea of martial empowering their techniques with Elemental energy, I've been a bit stuck as to what associate to Wind and Earth.
    Since there are no associated damage types in PHB, I thought about choosing either acid or poison for Earth (the closest thematically) and force for Wind (because lightning/thunder are already taken).

    But while I know that many creatures are resistant/immune to acid or poison, making Earth borderline underpowered, I'm afraid that putting force for Wind would be too powerful.
    Basically, how could they use it?
    - Reaction techniques similar to Absorb Element or Thunderwave in their effect (either halving damage and keeping some as bonus damage on next attack, or suffering all damage but make around creature also be affected).
    - Imbuing their weapon to change damage type, meaning it would deal force damage instead of usual physical damage (they get only 2 attacks per Attack action until level 13 or so, and don't get proficiency in heavy weapons before level 9 or so).

    So...
    1. Would allowing a character to deal force damage on weapon attacks be too powerful by principle? Or would it be acceptable as long as it is a high-level feature?
    Spoiler: My take on it
    Show

    Characters of this class can choose which Element to use with their techniques, so chances are they will always find a way to circumvent a creature's immunity.
    Also, magic weapons are common, so as far as physical immunity is concerned, I should not break anything.
    Still, I'm not familiar with creatures that are immune to almost everything except force damage, apart that they are very few.

    My main argument for saying "it's not too powerful" is that Warlock gets the best damaging cantrip in the game, which is force-based.


    2. Would allowing a character to halve force damage from spells be too powerful by principle? Or would it be acceptable as long as it is a limited resource?
    Spoiler: My opinion on it
    Show

    Here resides my main concern. I don't have in memory all force-dealing spells, but I guess most of them are high-level, so I'm afraid that even just halving damage would be too powerful, whether it would cost a resource such as a spell slot or not.


    Thank you all for all the input you could provide.
    I played in a homebrew game where the damage system that was just Bludgeoning, Piercing, Slashing, Burn, Shock, Cold.

    Magic and non magic damage had no distinction.

    Earth magic dealt Bludgeoning or Piercing damage.

    If you wanted to fluff your abikities as Force then it was Bludgeoning or Piercing (however you described your abilities).

    I think if you divorce the idea that magic and damage are somehow separate you start opening up your classes to be more flexible.

    How many times in stories or movies do we see a wind slash that is just slashing damage?

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