Batmans alignment

[Klorox]

Putting aside the fact that he won't kill (because heck, I'm trying to put him into D&D), what alignment would you give Batman?

He's working for the greater good, but he works outside the law. He also is smarter than every member of the JLA, and has contingency plans to take each one of them down.

[Kane0]

Chaotic Good.

Very strong moral principles that he sticks to, and he will do what he believes is right.

It varies slightly between different depictions though.

[Merellis]

Spoiler: Hey look, time to break this thing out again.

Show

Answer.

Depends on the writer.

[Guancyto]

Mhm. Batman is 77 years old, out-of-universe; he's gone through so many writers, so many philosophies, so many iterations on the concept that you would really have to specify which Batman you're talking about.

[OldTrees1]

Even after you specify which Batman, you need to specify which of the 2+ Law vs Chaos axes you are using. Batman usually is written as an illegal vigilante that rigidly hold to his chosen code of conduct. So LG or CG depending on which Law vs Chaos axis you choose.

[Honest Tiefling]

Can I elect the Batman who kidnaps and drugs robin to be Chaotic Evil?

Through I am not sure why intelligence would matter. I assume all of the alignments have the potential to be equally prepared and educated. And to be far to Batman, it's not paranoia if most of JLA gets brainwashed every six months. Then its just being genre-savvy.

[Cazero]

Even after you specify which Batman, you need to specify which of the 2+ Law vs Chaos axes you are using. Batman usually is written as an illegal vigilante that rigidly hold to his chosen code of conduct. So LG or CG depending on which Law vs Chaos axis you choose.

What other Law/Chaos axis are talking about?
The Law/Chaos axis never had anything to do with legality. It's all about valuing rules, imperatives, consistency and principles, all of wich mortal laws happen to be based on. Seriously people, read the description of the thing.

[OldTrees1]

What other Law/Chaos axis are talking about?
The Law/Chaos axis never had anything to do with legality. It's all about valuing rules, imperatives, consistency and principles, all of wich mortal laws happen to be based on. Seriously people, read the description of the thing.

Both of those axes are used despite one's certainty in their own reading. When word/term usage evolves over time we would be imprecise & inaccurate to insist that only our meaning exists.

[Koo Rehtorb]

Batman says. "I am Batman, and your alignment system is stupid." and then your D&D books burst into flames.

[TheCountAlucard]

Putting aside the fact that he won't kill…

Batman's killed plenty of times before. And that's without even touching the movies.

[Mastikator]

Rich man uses his enormous wealth to beat up on street crime meanwhile his own corporation perpetuates poverty.
He's lawful evil.

[CharonsHelper]

Rich man uses his enormous wealth to beat up on street crime meanwhile his own corporation perpetuates poverty.
He's lawful evil.

How does Wayne Corp perpetuate poverty? Doesn't it generally go out of its way to give to charity & do low income housing etc.?

Unless you're talking from a Marxian: rich = bad perspective.

[Mastikator]

How does Wayne Corp perpetuate poverty? Doesn't it generally go out of its way to give to charity & do low income housing etc.?

Unless you're talking from a Marxian: rich = bad perspective.

To be fair I only know Batman from the movies and series. In all of the the highest targets he goes for is mafia bosses. All evidence points to the batman being a revenge ritual to get back at the street thug who murdered his parents. Bruce Wayne could do a lot more to prevent crime but he spends far more money and effort as batman.
The comics go back several decades and are all over the place, you kinda have to be narrow in which batman you're talking about.

[CharonsHelper]

Bruce Wayne could do a lot more to prevent crime but he spends far more money and effort as batman.

I've heard that argument before, but it's simply not true when you do the math.

Assuming that Gotham is basically a fictionalized mix of Chicago & New York, lets put its population on the low end of the average - at 5 million people.

With the Batmobile, the Batcave, his suit, all his gadgets etc., there was probably a start-up cost of 10ish million (less in Batman Begins since most of the gear was already sitting Wayne Corp anyway), and a continued cost of perhaps a million $ a year at most. That's the equivalent of $0.20 in taxes from every person in the city if he gave that to the gov. treasury.

If he gave that directly to the police force, they would be able to initially renovate a station or two and then have another 6-10 police officers on payroll. (Pay/benefits/facilities/car etc. for a police officer in a high cost of living city averages at least 100k.)

I'm pretty sure that it's safe to say that Batman does the work of 6-10 average police officers himself, and more importantly he's got all that symbolism type stuff going for him, not to mention that when he starts (in most incarnations) he deals with a lot of police/gov corruption.

Note: This is not to say that someone in real life could be as effective as Batman is in the fiction, but within the fiction, he's better off being Batman than paying for another few cops.

[Strigon]

LG, maybe LN. Even LE is possible, I suppose, though I'd strongly contest that (or at least put an asterisk beside the E). But definitely Lawful, no question.
Of course, this does change version to version, but I think that there are enough that follow a certain theme to say what an "average" modern Batman is.

He follows his own code, no matter what. Even if it puts his life at stake - even when it puts innocent people's lives at stake, he follows his code not to kill. Sure, he might bend the rules in very, very harsh circumstances, or in certain versions he might not even feel particularly bad about killing, but this "average" Batman won't kill The Joker no matter how many times he escapes, won't use handguns (though apparently they're okay on the Batmobile?), et cetera, et cetera.

Now, as far as Good, Neutral or Evil? This varies far more with the version, and the GM's own decisions. He's decidedly selfless, devotes his entire life to a decidedly Good ideal and is quite happy to continue doing so without recognition. Well, as far as Batman can actually be happy, that is.
However, he can certainly go down some dark paths to get there. Light torture isn't outside his scope when necessary (perhaps physical coercion is a more apt term; it's usually quick and no more severe than a few broken bones), and he will beat up good guys when he has to - though he will try to limit damage.
He'll also deliberately limit himself, even when fighting decidedly Evil opponents, ones who he could certainly kill without it being an Evil act, and that may weigh in on a GM's decision.

Personally, I'd put him at LG, just because of the weight I put on various factors, but I could definitely see some people going all the way down to LE - though I hope they'd willingly concede that he's not evil just because he's Evil.

[Nightcanon]

I've heard that argument before, but it's simply not true when you do the math.

Assuming that Gotham is basically a fictionalized mix of Chicago & New York, lets put its population on the low end of the average - at 5 million people.

With the Batmobile, the Batcave, his suit, all his gadgets etc., there was probably a start-up cost of 10ish million (less in Batman Begins since most of the gear was already sitting Wayne Corp anyway), and a continued cost of perhaps a million $ a year at most. That's the equivalent of $0.20 in taxes from every person in the city if he gave that to the gov. treasury.

If he gave that directly to the police force, they would be able to initially renovate a station or two and then have another 6-10 police officers on payroll. (Pay/benefits/facilities/car etc. for a police officer in a high cost of living city averages at least 100k.)

I'm pretty sure that it's safe to say that Batman does the work of 6-10 average police officers himself, and more importantly he's got all that symbolism type stuff going for him, not to mention that when he starts (in most incarnations) he deals with a lot of police/gov corruption.

Note: This is not to say that someone in real life could be as effective as Batman is in the fiction, but within the fiction, he's better off being Batman than paying for another few cops.

Not an expert on Batman, by any means, but I think that the value of a prime-location city mansion plus ensuite Batcave comes to more than $10m, nevermind the prototype armoured car, ground-attack jet, unique body armour and controlling interest in an industrial organisation that designs and builds these things.

[Douche]

To be fair I only know Batman from the movies and series. In all of the the highest targets he goes for is mafia bosses. All evidence points to the batman being a revenge ritual to get back at the street thug who murdered his parents. Bruce Wayne could do a lot more to prevent crime but he spends far more money and effort as batman.
The comics go back several decades and are all over the place, you kinda have to be narrow in which batman you're talking about.

If you're talking about the Dark Knight series, he actually successfully creates a military state in Gotham where the police have unlimited power thanks to the Dent Act. So that's doing quite a bit more than a revenge ritual.

[Max_Killjoy]

If you're talking about the Dark Knight series, he actually successfully creates a military state in Gotham where the police have unlimited power thanks to the Dent Act. So that's doing quite a bit more than a revenge ritual.

Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

Anyone who creates that sort of police state is lawful evil.

[Strigon]

Not an expert on Batman, by any means, but I think that the value of a prime-location city mansion plus ensuite Batcave comes to more than $10m, nevermind the prototype armoured car, ground-attack jet, unique body armour and controlling interest in an industrial organisation that designs and builds these things.

The thing is, he isn't just Batman. He has billions of dollars, and ridiculous amounts of power that he could use to bolster the police force, reduce poverty, and help the city out in countless ways.
And he does.
He gives away to charities, supports people with integrity (like Harvey Dent, before he became Two Face), helps the police, creates jobs, and does everything he can do as Bruce Wayne.

But he also realizes that Gotham is corrupt, that half the police are on a mob boss' payroll, and just throwing money at the problem won't make it go away - it needs a catalyst, it needs someone to spark the city out of inaction, and it may even need somebody unidentifiable. Someone who can't be assassinated, or threatened, or bribed, because you don't know who he is. You just know he's powerful, he's terrifying, he's beyond the law, and he's right behind you. That's what Batman is.

[CharonsHelper]

Not an expert on Batman, by any means, but I think that the value of a prime-location city mansion plus ensuite Batcave comes to more than $10m, nevermind the prototype armoured car, ground-attack jet, unique body armour and controlling interest in an industrial organisation that designs and builds these things.

I didn't say that his net worth was 10m, just the start-up cost of being Batman. Bruce Wayne is going to own the mansion & industrial organization whether or not he's Batman.

[Douche]

Sometimes the cure is worse than the disease.

Anyone who creates that sort of police state is lawful evil.

Yes, but you cannot deny that he did a lot to prevent crime!

[Guancyto]

Can I elect the Batman who kidnaps and drugs robin to be Chaotic Evil?

Yes. Frank Miller's The Goddamn Batman is solidly Chaotic Evil (find criminals, burn them alive, have sex on top of their corpses? Yeeeeah). And a fair argument that even within the CE alignment there are shades of... well, black. His single virtue is that the bad guys are worse. (Sometimes.)

Contrast with Paul Dini's Batman (Animated Series), who is so Lawful Good that his robot duplicate has a massive breakdown because it thinks it's taken a life.

[Mastikator]

I've heard that argument before, but it's simply not true when you do the math.

Assuming that Gotham is basically a fictionalized mix of Chicago & New York, lets put its population on the low end of the average - at 5 million people.

With the Batmobile, the Batcave, his suit, all his gadgets etc., there was probably a start-up cost of 10ish million (less in Batman Begins since most of the gear was already sitting Wayne Corp anyway), and a continued cost of perhaps a million $ a year at most. That's the equivalent of $0.20 in taxes from every person in the city if he gave that to the gov. treasury.

If he gave that directly to the police force, they would be able to initially renovate a station or two and then have another 6-10 police officers on payroll. (Pay/benefits/facilities/car etc. for a police officer in a high cost of living city averages at least 100k.)

I'm pretty sure that it's safe to say that Batman does the work of 6-10 average police officers himself, and more importantly he's got all that symbolism type stuff going for him, not to mention that when he starts (in most incarnations) he deals with a lot of police/gov corruption.

Note: This is not to say that someone in real life could be as effective as Batman is in the fiction, but within the fiction, he's better off being Batman than paying for another few cops.

Batman has a jet fighter, as a point of comparison a Saab JAS 39 Gripen costs 40-60 million USD.
Add in the batcave, a dungeon would easily cost about as much as an expensive mansion. That's another 50 million USD.
The gadgets and the car is probably another few million. We're easily up to 100 million USD.

That's more than enough to offer education and jobs to combat poverty and social disintegration (two big factors behind street crime).

Bruce Wayne also has many political connections that he could pull on to affect policy change that would reduce crime.

Instead he goes the Batman route and Gotham never gets any better. It's always depicted as a crime ridden hell hole.

[Strigon]

Batman has a jet fighter, as a point of comparison a Saab JAS 39 Gripen costs 40-60 million USD.
Add in the batcave, a dungeon would easily cost about as much as an expensive mansion. That's another 50 million USD.
The gadgets and the car is probably another few million. We're easily up to 100 million USD.

That's more than enough to offer education and jobs to combat poverty and social disintegration (two big factors behind street crime).

Bruce Wayne also has many political connections that he could pull on to affect policy change that would reduce crime.

Instead he goes the Batman route and Gotham never gets any better. It's always depicted as a crime ridden hell hole.

That one word is what ruins this whole argument.
I've never seen any version of Batman where he exclusively fights crime as Batman. As far as I've seen, he's hosted fundraisers, built homeless shelters and schools, donated to charity, and has been a major player on the political field, always throwing enormous amounts of support to those who deserve it.

[CharonsHelper]

Batman has a jet fighter, as a point of comparison a Saab JAS 39 Gripen costs 40-60 million USD.

Or an old MIG-21 can be purchased for well under 100k. Batman doesn't get into dogfights, so he doesn't really need air superiority.

Even IF it was a total of $100 million (I don't think so - but for argument's sake) that would be a drop in the bucket to "combat poverty and social disintegration". The US welfare and Medicaid programs alone spent over $700 BILLION in 2015 alone. The proportion of that spent in Gotham (based only on % of population at approx 5 vs 300 million) would be nearly $12 billion welfare/Medicaid dollars already streaming into Gotham. Not to mention all other gov programs and charities etc.

[LibraryOgre]

The Mod Wonder: No one's crossed it yet, but be aware of the delicacy of discussing political issues.

[Guancyto]

In keeping with the "depending on the writer" theme, Batman has been both of those things. Those writers focused on the "caped crusader, superhero" side of things generally do play up his philanthropy as Bruce Wayne (in the Animated Series it's about 95% of how he gets into trouble as Wayne).

The ones who go with the "psychotic thug working out his issues by beating people up" or the "BATMAN IS AWESOME AND MUST ALWAYS DO AWESOME THINGS" aspect tend to gloss over it (and in fairness, it pretty much gets entirely forgotten in the Justice League cartoon of the same universe as BTAS just because the problems Batman is faced with are always so much bigger than Gotham).

Either way he's doomed to failure by the script, because you can never clean up Gotham City or it'd be the end of Batman comics. (Also, the city is alive or something? I was never really clear on that.)

[McNum]

Why does Batman need a jet fighter, anyway? I mean, I get breaking it out for Justice League level threats where keeping up with Superman and the like is important, but for Batman's usual street crime and general urban level patrolling, it seems like it'd be bad for his usual mission profiles. A Bat-copter would probably work better if he needs air-power.

Or am I missing something that only the Bat-wing can do? If it can hover, I'll admit it reduces the need for a Bat-copter, but that also makes it a lot more expensive since making a jet hover like a helicopter is not an easy feat of engineering.

[Cealocanth]

I would actually say Lawful Neutral or Lawful Good. He kind of spans the grey area between those.

He is extremely lawful, not that he respects the laws of the land, but that he has a very, very strict moral code that he will stick to come hell or high water. In a world that is quite chaotic, Batman's moral code is about as strict as it gets. He won't even break his code to do what's right, that's how unbelievably lawful this guy actually is.

He's Neutral because of his particularly brutal tactics and strategies. He's not above breaking bones, torturing people, and punishing villians with brutal force simply because they're beyond insane. However, he fights strongly for the greater good, stands as a paragon of righteousness, and has evil as his sworn enemy. Given that many paladins are allowed to be LG while still brutally dismembering their enemies with a massive greatsword, Batman could actually be considered LG in that regard. He's like a modern day paladin. Fighting for good with a strict moral code.

[Max_Killjoy]

Batman has a jet fighter, as a point of comparison a Saab JAS 39 Gripen costs 40-60 million USD.
Add in the batcave, a dungeon would easily cost about as much as an expensive mansion. That's another 50 million USD.
The gadgets and the car is probably another few million. We're easily up to 100 million USD.

That's more than enough to offer education and jobs to combat poverty and social disintegration (two big factors behind street crime).

Bruce Wayne also has many political connections that he could pull on to affect policy change that would reduce crime.

Instead he goes the Batman route and Gotham never gets any better. It's always depicted as a crime ridden hell hole.

Bruce Wayne is noted to be a billionaire, isn't he?

It's almost as if he could afford the Batman stuff, AND (especially via the various foundations and charities with fund drives and other donors) drive at least an equal amount of funding for charitable works.


As for Gotham... it's depicted that way because in episodic fiction, nothing ever really changes.