Paladin/Warlock damage per round

[JeenLeen]

I'm starting in a game as Paladin, planning to get to Paladin 2/Warlock 2 and not sure after that. To deal good damage per round fairly consistently, I plan to use the 'trick' of fueling Divine Smite with Pact Magic slots, so they refresh after short rests. I also want the chance to nova when desired. The DM is cool with it. Probably combo with Hex when seems worth it.

Some questions:
Would I be better off using a d8-and-shield in my arms or two d6 light weapons and dual wielding? What if I plan on taking Dual Wielding eventually?
How would having Hex active impact which is better?
When I have 2 attacks during my Attack Action, can I use Divine Smite on each of them? (Ex. burn two spells, one for each attack)
Can I also burn a spell to add Divine Smite damage to my bonus action attack?
In case relevant, my Strength is 16.

I've heard, and can see that it might be the case, that heavy weapons are more optimized for damage.
Are heavy weapons significantly better? I could see using a 2d6 or d12 weapon with Polearm Master, but I like the AC bonus from either a shield or Dual Wielding. I don't think I'd take the -5/+10 from the great weapon feat, since worried about missing attacks (perhaps unnecessarily).

[Zman]

Sword and Board is viable, but means you'll probably need Warcaster to cast somatic components. Dualwielding has the same problem and competing bonus action attack with Hex.

Out of all the options taking Polearm Master is likely your best bet and the most optimized.

Yes, you can smite once for each of your hits.

If you want AC, take Defense instead of great weapon fighting, PAM is enough damage and Hex makes it gravy.

[Dalebert]

What about Hex with two-weapon fighting? With two attacks at pal/5th, that'd be up to 3d6 more a round.

[RSP]

FYI Warcaster isn't necessary for sword and board Pally casting as they can have their holy symbol on their shield and perform somatic components with their shield arm.

[MaxWilson]

FYI Warcaster isn't necessary for sword and board Pally casting as they can have their holy symbol on their shield and perform somatic components with their shield arm.

(1) That's a popular, but goofy, rules interpretation. Check with your DM.
(2) At best that only gets you out of S components for Paladin spells. Still doesn't work for Hex.

[Dalebert]

You could cast Hex on the first round before drawing your weapon, then draw your weapon as your one free object interaction and then attack.

The holy symbol on your shield gets you out of needing a hand free only for spells that have a material component. You can mostly manage by drawing or sheathing your weapon to cast. It will just sometimes be awkward for things like opportunity attacks. If you just sheathed your weapon to cast a spell, it's now no longer out and ready for AoO, but you can just draw it again with your attack on your next turn.

[Foxhound438]

big red flag at martial2/caster2. I've tried multiple multiclass before 5 builds, and it's never worth it. Wait until Pal 5 to grab warlock levels.

Anyway, hex is good if you have a bonus action attack, but I'd try to use something other than 2wf. Polearm master is the general go-to. Whether it's better than a smite depends on how many hits you'd get with the extra d6. By my metrics, a good fight is about 6 rounds, so you should be able to get a good 10ish hits, minus a few for re-targeting hex, so in most cases I'd say hex is a decent expenditure of a slot- not as good as bless, but decent.

[TheTeaMustFlow]

big red flag at martial2/caster2. I've tried multiple multiclass before 5 builds, and it's never worth it. Wait until Pal 5 to grab warlock levels.

Anyway, hex is good if you have a bonus action attack, but I'd try to use something other than 2wf. Polearm master is the general go-to. Whether it's better than a smite depends on how many hits you'd get with the extra d6. By my metrics, a good fight is about 6 rounds, so you should be able to get a good 10ish hits, minus a few for re-targeting hex, so in most cases I'd say hex is a decent expenditure of a slot- not as good as bless, but decent.

What this guy said. For a fighter type, you want extra attack ASAP. If you're set on Pal2/Warlock2, then your next step is to get to level 5 in one or the other class, probably Paladin. But be prepared to be notably behind on the stabbing people front from levels 5 to 9 (yeah, you may have more smites, but an extra attack is generally going to be better than a smite anyway.)

[deathadder99]

Polearm Master is better than TWF, especially since casting spells with Somatic components works with a 2h Weapon RAI but not with TWF. GWM is nice but not needed IMHO, but it can be added to the Butt attack which is pretty nasty if your DM lets you do it (works RAW).

I'd recommend getting at least GreenFlame blade and/or Booming Blade to help you even out the DPR for level 5 - you're losing a lot of damage at level 5 by not having extra attack and those cantrips can help close the gap especially because they scale with TOTAL level rather than character level. Even Eldritch Blast is pretty good at level 5.

If you can, go Undying Light Warlock, it has great synergy with Paladin and GFB.

Depending on how you want to look at max level, Paladin 12+/Lock X or Lock 12+/Paladin X are pretty much the best splits. If you go lock 12, go for a Bladelock build which will give you extra attack and Thirsting blade. If you go Paladin 12, going pact of the Tome Warlock with Shillelagh is a nasty combo, and makes you pretty SAD.

[Mandragola]

At low levels, warlock levels honestly don't add much to a paladin's DPR. A vengeance paladin gets hunter’s mark, which is basically identical to hex. All paladins get divine favour, which can actually be a better option because you don’t have to keep moving it and costing bonus actions - which you want to use hitting things.

A level 5 paladin picks up spell slots of his own anyway, and a second attack. The warlock MC might slightly add to the number of smites you can do, but not by loads, and at the cost of a second attack every single turn. That isn’t even close to being a fair trade.

I play a vengeance paladin myself and I’ve often thought about multiclassing, but it has never seemed worthwhile. It’s one of the classes that actually get great stuff every level, at least up to 11 where I am now.

If you want short-rest-resetting melee nova damage then a battlemaster fighter might be a better option. You can action surge for 4 attacks (or 5 if dual wielding). I think a level of war priest for divine favour and occasional bonus action attacks could be a solid option – after level 5 of course. War priest’s channel divinity is an excellent combo with GWM.

So basically the people saying not to MC a martial class before lvl 5 are correct, and you may never choose to MC a paladin.

[Sir cryosin]

If your looking for a 2wf build I came up with a warlock invocation.
Twin blades
Prerequisite 5th level, pact of the blade.
You can summon 2 pact weapons with the finesse tag. You also lean the two weapon fighting fighting style.

I'm going to be playing this 2wf bladelock starting this week. I took warcaster so I can still cast spells. And I took armor of Shadows for the free mage armor. My ac is 17 and I'm find with it because I want to be hit every now and then so people take armor of agathys damage or hellish rebuke damage.

[Arkhios]

I'm playing a paladin with which I took Dual Wielder at first level (he's Variant human, obviously).
My shtick is to fight with both my weapon and my shield as an improvised weapon, and my DM allowed me to apply Dual Wielder's +1 to AC as long as I have my weapon drawn and shield donned.

Take Tavern Brawler as soon as possible to become proficient with improvised weapons.
For the first three levels lack of proficiency isn't all that huge, so you'll be alright. At 4th level forward you'll be as good as with any weapon when you attack with your shield.
If you're concerned about your AC, take Defense fighting style, to get a whopping +4 AC with shield and weapon drawn.
If not, take Protection Style and your more squishy allies in melee will love you. (I did, with no regrets).

If you plan to (I'd say you should) take at least 11 levels in paladin so that you'll get all of the awesome auras that benefit you and your allies as long as they keep close to you. But most importantly, you'll get Improved Divine Smite, which will upgrade your nova capabilites significantly (the +1d8 to damage applies to your shield attacks as well!)

FYI Warcaster isn't necessary for sword and board Pally casting as they can have their holy symbol on their shield and perform somatic components with their shield arm.

Holy Symbol as a spellcasting focus only applies to spells you have prepared from Paladin (or Cleric) spell lists, and as long as the spells also have a Material Component the holy symbol can substitute for. If the material component has a price, no can do. Likewise, if the paladin spell has only Somatic but not Material component, you'll need a hand free. Which is why War Caster is still very useful for a sword and board paladin (or cleric).

[deathadder99]

At low levels, warlock levels honestly don't add much to a paladin's DPR. A vengeance paladin gets hunter’s mark, which is basically identical to hex. All paladins get divine favour, which can actually be a better option because you don’t have to keep moving it and costing bonus actions - which you want to use hitting things.

A level 5 paladin picks up spell slots of his own anyway, and a second attack. The warlock MC might slightly add to the number of smites you can do, but not by loads, and at the cost of a second attack every single turn. That isn’t even close to being a fair trade.

I play a vengeance paladin myself and I’ve often thought about multiclassing, but it has never seemed worthwhile. It’s one of the classes that actually get great stuff every level, at least up to 11 where I am now.

If you want short-rest-resetting melee nova damage then a battlemaster fighter might be a better option. You can action surge for 4 attacks (or 5 if dual wielding). I think a level of war priest for divine favour and occasional bonus action attacks could be a solid option – after level 5 of course. War priest’s channel divinity is an excellent combo with GWM.

So basically the people saying not to MC a martial class before lvl 5 are correct, and you may never choose to MC a paladin.

I agree that you get a hell of a lot of stuff from paladin up to 12 ish but I would say that there's a special case for Warlock 3, Paladin 2 - assuming UA is allowed. You can with Undying Light Warlock gain +CHA to Fire and Radiant Damage (and yes, that includes Smite Spells - and regular smites if your DM rules so). Then you can get Shillelagh and whatever other cantrips you want. You then use Green Flame Blade as your main way of attacking. Use a quarterstaff(which can count as an arcane focus for Somatic Spells) and shield, you now are completely SAD on Charisma for attacking, and GFB does a bunch of damage.

[Klorox]

I agree that you get a hell of a lot of stuff from paladin up to 12 ish but I would say that there's a special case for Warlock 3, Paladin 2 - assuming UA is allowed. You can with Undying Light Warlock gain +CHA to Fire and Radiant Damage (and yes, that includes Smite Spells - and regular smites if your DM rules so). Then you can get Shillelagh and whatever other cantrips you want. You then use Green Flame Blade as your main way of attacking. Use a quarterstaff(which can count as an arcane focus for Somatic Spells) and shield, you now are completely SAD on Charisma for attacking, and GFB does a bunch of damage.

Wow. :thumbsup:

[Giant2005]

You don't need to choose between dual-wielding and sword-and-board. Get yourself a staff, shield, take Polearm Master, and essentially do both.

[Specter]

Hex's biggest problem in combat is that it takes snother bonus action to switch it to another target when the first one is dropped. I didn't think it would be a problem, but on horde fights it's a real nightmare. That's why I personally prefer Divine Favor right now. It's on the Paladin list, so you should keep it prepared for fights with many enemies. After that, Polearm Master really seems like the best choice.

[deathadder99]

Hex's biggest problem in combat is that it takes snother bonus action to switch it to another target when the first one is dropped. I didn't think it would be a problem, but on horde fights it's a real nightmare. That's why I personally prefer Divine Favor right now. It's on the Paladin list, so you should keep it prepared for fights with many enemies. After that, Polearm Master really seems like the best choice.

And because I haven't been shilling UA Undying Light Warlock enough this thread, Divine Favor stacks with the Radiant Soul Class feature, meaning you add +CHA to each hit as well.

That said, Hex and PAM aren't actually THAT incompatible. Hex and GWM have anti-synergy though.

[Mandragola]

That said, Hex and PAM aren't actually THAT incompatible. Hex and GWM have anti-synergy though.

You think? PAM wants your bonus action every turn, and hex uses it up on many turns.

My issue with some of the suggestions here is that it relies on a house rule of a UA sub-class. You don't normally get to add cha to damage when smiting, because the class feature triggers of casting a spell. Smiting someone is not casting a spell (unless it's one of the smite spells of course), it's an alternative thing you can do with a spell slot.

When people (not deathadder) then talk about using shillelagh to power up a quarterstaff using cha for hit and damage, duelist for +2 damage and PAM for extra bonus action attacks, it's just bending too many rules by too much for my liking. If I were DMing I would not allow this character, so I can't recommend it.

There was another thread about charisma-based paladins. The problem is that you need strength or dex anyway to wear your armour, and you need a bit of strength to multiclass. So you might as well use one of those as your attack stat, which renders the whole question of getting shillelagh basically pointless. If you've got a high strength score you can use any weapon you like too, so if you come across a holy avenger that somehow happens not to be a quarterstaff, it's no problem.

I still think a straight-up paladin will have better dpr at 5th than any kind of MC. The second attack is worth more than anything. Fair enough if your character concept wants lvl 1 as something else (though a background might also explain his past - it need not have had a mechanical effect), but you should switch straight after that.

Smites are not really dpr, because you can't do very many of them - clearly not every round. What smites do is give you the option of going nova from time to time. Two warlock spell slots per short rest equate to 6d8 damage (with 2nd lvl slots), or 27 damage per short rest. That's like landing two or three extra hits. Or instead you could have a second attack. A second attack is roughly equivalent to a 1st level smite - every single turn.

And of course, a straight up 5th level paladin would have a couple of lvl 2 slots per long rest, and a bunch of first level ones, which reduces the bonus the warlock would get even further.

[Dalebert]

And of course, a straight up 5th level paladin would have a couple of lvl 2 slots per long rest, and a bunch of first level ones, which reduces the bonus the warlock would get even further.

I agree. The warlock slots are icing but hard to justify lost in paladin levels for. If you dip lock, do it for the other benefits. Maybe you want temp hp when you kill things or maybe you want to see in magical darkness or whatever. Then it's nice that you get more smites also, but icing.

[deathadder99]

You think? PAM wants your bonus action every turn, and hex uses it up on many turns.

Sure, PAM wants your bonus action every turn, but you only need to bonus action Hex when an enemy dies. The extra 1d6 you get from hitting a Hexed target with a butt attack generally makes up for the 1d4 you lose switching targets. It's not ideal, but it still works. Divine Favor is likely better though.

My issue with some of the suggestions here is that it relies on a house rule of a UA sub-class. You don't normally get to add cha to damage when smiting, because the class feature triggers of casting a spell. Smiting someone is not casting a spell (unless it's one of the smite spells of course), it's an alternative thing you can do with a spell slot.

I agree that a regular smite shouldn't be able to proc Radiant Soul's +CHA, but Divine Favor definitely procs the +CHA. If your DM allows you to proc the +CHA off smites, then it's gravy.

When people (not deathadder) then talk about using shillelagh to power up a quarterstaff using cha for hit and damage, duelist for +2 damage and PAM for extra bonus action attacks, it's just bending too many rules by too much for my liking. If I were DMing I would not allow this character, so I can't recommend it.

I agree, it's being slightly too rules lawyery. Especially with a shield. Using Green Flame Blade instead of PAM is much more acceptable rules wise and isn't too bad in terms of DPR.

There was another thread about charisma-based paladins. The problem is that you need strength or dex anyway to wear your armour, and you need a bit of strength to multiclass. So you might as well use one of those as your attack stat, which renders the whole question of getting shillelagh basically pointless. If you've got a high strength score you can use any weapon you like too, so if you come across a holy avenger that somehow happens not to be a quarterstaff, it's no problem.

I still think a straight-up paladin will have better dpr at 5th than any kind of MC. The second attack is worth more than anything. Fair enough if your character concept wants lvl 1 as something else (though a background might also explain his past - it need not have had a mechanical effect), but you should switch straight after that.

Completely agree. Paladin 2/ Warlock 3 is just the only multiclass I can think of that vaguely can keep up in terms of DPR while still multiclassing due to how Cantrips scale with TOTAL level rather than character level, letting you hit spikes at the same level as martials while still multiclassing.

Smites are not really dpr, because you can't do very many of them - clearly not every round. What smites do is give you the option of going nova from time to time. Two warlock spell slots per short rest equate to 6d8 damage (with 2nd lvl slots), or 27 damage per short rest. That's like landing two or three extra hits. Or instead you could have a second attack. A second attack is roughly equivalent to a 1st level smite - every single turn.

And of course, a straight up 5th level paladin would have a couple of lvl 2 slots per long rest, and a bunch of first level ones, which reduces the bonus the warlock would get even further.

Yeah, I think Paladin/Warlock is strong, but MCing before 6 is not ideal at all.