Magical Darkness battle

[Godrednu]

I am a little confused on how battle works and magical darkness when the creature has tremorsense. For instance, who has Advantage when and who has disadvantage when? Also when is the creatures position given away? Stuff like that. Thanks for the help.

[JellyPooga]

Line of Sight 101

1) If you can't see them, you have Disadvantage to hit them.

2) If you can't see them, they have Advantage to hit you.

3) You can't attack what you can't locate.
3a) You can "attack the darkness" (i.e. guess where they are).

4) If both parties are blind, the Advantage and Disadvantage cancel out.

Tremorsense 101

1) Tremorsense lets you locate a target in contact with the same piece of ground.

2) Tremorsense does not let you "see" through opaque surfaces.

Tremorsense, Darkness, LoS and Battle

A creature with Tremorsense will always be able to locate a creature in contact with the ground. Unless they have an ability that allows them to see through (magical) darkness, they will suffer Disadvantage to attack anyone they cannot see and creatures that can see in darkness will have Advantage against the creature with Tremorsense. If they're burrowing, no ability I know of allows them to see through OR attack through dirt (there may be exceptions; check the individual MM stat-block); they'll have to surface to attack.

Tremorsense is a passive ability, thus is always "on", allowing a creature to locate another at any time (just as your eyes allow you to locate another creature at any time). I can see nothing in the rules that would not allow a Stealth check against Tremorsense, using the normal Stealth rules.

[Godrednu]

What if it were just regular darkness, and they were in melee combat? Would the character then be able to see the creature when it's within 5 feet or is he still blind to it?

[Tanarii]

I can see nothing in the rules that would not allow a Stealth check against Tremorsense, using the normal Stealth rules.

What good would that do? A successful Stealth check just makes it so they can't locate you. And with Tremorsense, they can always locate you.

[JellyPooga]

What good would that do?

Would you care to read your statement again?

A successful Stealth check just makes it so they can't locate you.

Gottit.

And with Tremorsense, they can always locate you.

Corrected for you. Tremorsense is no less fallible a sense than sight. A Stealth check (specific case) trumps Tremorsense (general rule) just as much as it does sight (another general rule).

A monster with Tremorsense can locate and pinpoint the origin of vibrations within a specific radius, provided that the monster and the source of the vibrations are in contact with the same ground or substance.

---

What if it were just regular darkness, and they were in melee combat? Would the character then be able to see the creature when it's within 5 feet or is he still blind to it?

Same as magical darkness. If you can't see, you can't see and suffer the usual penalties. If you have some way of locating a creature, you can attack them but will still suffer Disadvantage.

[Tanarii]

Corrected for you. Tremorsense is no less fallible a sense than sight. A Stealth check (specific case) trumps Tremorsense (general rule) just as much as it does sight (another general rule).

Oh I see. You're assuming Stealth is the specific rule.

IMO it's the other way around, and Tremorsense is the specific rule, overriding the Stealth general rule.

OTOH that's always the thing about specific vs general. It's all very well to say specific overrides general, but usually which is which is not clear at all.

[JellyPooga]

Oh I see. You're assuming Stealth is the specific rule.

IMO it's the other way around, and Tremorsense is the specific rule, overriding the Stealth general rule.

OTOH that's always the thing about specific vs general. It's all very well to say specific overrides general, but usually which is which is not clear at all.

When it comes to specific vs. general, I adopt the approach that if two abilities come into conflict, where one is active and the other is passive, the active one is usually the "specific" one.

For example;

Stealth vs. Perception normally defaults to Passive Perception vs. Active Stealth. Stealth being the Active ability, on a success trumps the General ability of Passive Perception to locate a creature (which it always does unless someone's making a Stealth check).

The reverse is also true; if a thing or creature has been hidden with a Sleight of Hand or Stealth check, that check becomes passive and a successful Active Perception check defeats it.

Tremorsense isn't some kind of god-sense that trumps all comers; it's just another (slightly odd) pair of eyes or ears that happens to detect vibrations in solid matter instead of sound or light. Stealth will still defeat it (albeit, I'd probably rule that a creature with Tremorsense has Advantage on any Perception checks (passive or active) to locate most PC's; the Fremen might get away with avoiding this penalty when it comes to giant sand-worms, for example).

[RSP]

I read Tremorsense as allowing you to note the movements on a surface, which Stealth wouldn't counter, assuming the Stealthing individual is in fact walking, or "moving and touching" said surface.

Essentially I treat Tremorsense's ability to locate the creature moving on the surface as being "seen," which nullifies Stealth.

RAW, you could argue that Stealth could work, but I don't believe that's the RAI.

I'm also unaware of any way to "stealth" the fact that you're stepping (that is, the Stealthed character making some sort of contact with the Tremorsensed surface) when moving across a surface you're making contact with, but maybe someone has an idea that would provide a good "rule of cool" exception.

[JellyPooga]

I'm not sure where this notion that Stealth should be ineffective against Tremorsense is coming from.

Make a Dexterity(Stealth) check when you attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, slink past guards, slip away without being noticed, or sneak up on someone without being seen or heard

Stealth covers any attempt to conceal yourself from enemies, not just hiding yourself from view or hearing. Stepping softly, or in time with another rhythm in the ground would both be effective foils to Tremorsense locating you. I can even imagine specialised equipment helping, such as the thumpers from the Dune series or padded shoes.

Any motion or equipment that reduces vibrations, which is specifically what Tremorsense detect, could foil it. Any motion or equipment that generates additional vibrations could confuse it (like cross-chatter does for sound). I'll say it again; Tremorsense is just another mundane sense (or a heightening of an existing one) that allows a creature to locate vibrations in solid matter (not just surfaces). Like other senses, it can be foiled or confused and Stealth is the "foil or confuse the senses" skill.

[Saggo]

3) You can't attack what you can't locate.
3a) You can "attack the darkness" (i.e. guess where they are).

A sidebar to the tremorsense discussion, worth noting that just because you can't see a target doesn't mean you also can't locate them. You would still know the 5' square a target is in if in Darkness, unless they stealthed or there was a narrative reason to enforce a skill check.

[JellyPooga]

...just because you can't see a target doesn't mean you also can't locate them.

Yeah, I knew there was something missing from my 101, but couldn't put my finger on it. This should have been in there, absolutely.

[Xetheral]

A sidebar to the tremorsense discussion, worth noting that just because you can't see a target doesn't mean you also can't locate them. You would still know the 5' square a target is in if in Darkness, unless they stealthed or there was a narrative reason to enforce a skill check.

That is contested. It may be the majority opinion, but it's not universally agreed upon by forum posters.

[Saggo]

That is contested. It may be the majority opinion, but it's not universally agreed upon by forum posters.

Very few things are universally agreed on.

In this case however, the rules don't prevent you from locating the square someone heavily obscured is in. Being heavily obscured only induces effectively Blindness and Blindness only induces disadvantage.

[Xetheral]

Very few things are universally agreed on.

In this case however, the rules don't prevent you from locating the square someone heavily obscured is in. Being heavily obscured only induces effectively Blindness and Blindness only induces disadvantage.

This one is highly controversial. Just go read any of the other dozen+ threads on the subject. It's controversial enough to at least mention the controversy to people asking questions on the subject.

[Plaguescarred]

If it interest anyone Chris Perkins answered that tremorsense can locate a hidden creature if it succeed on it's Perception check http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/11/20/...hed-character/


@brooksie014 can a creature with Tremorsense locate a stealthed player while said player is moving within the radius?
@ChrisPerkinsDnD I would say yes, if the creature's Wisdom (Perception) check beats the character's Dexterity (Stealth) check.

[Saggo]

This one is highly controversial. Just go read any of the other dozen+ threads on the subject. It's controversial enough to at least mention the controversy to people asking questions on the subject.

I would barely call it controversial, the series of effects are pretty clearly delineated. If there's a rule that prevents you from locating targets while blinded, I wouldn't mind seeing the page it's on.

[Xetheral]

I would barely call it controversial, the series of effects are pretty clearly delineated. If there's a rule that prevents you from locating targets while blinded, I wouldn't mind seeing the page it's on.

There isn't one, just as there isn't a rule saying that characters are automatically aware of the location of non-stealthed enemies. It's left up to each individual DM, and I think the endless threads about this make it clear that there is controversy. It's one thing to disagree with others, it's another to deny that their opinion even exists, which is exactly what you're doing when you refuse to label as controversial one of the most controversial topics in all of 5e.

See, e.g.,:

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...bility-and-you
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...en-Overpowered
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...cation-for-All
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...ict-Themselves
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...concentration)

Out of curiosity, if you believe anyone can already detect and pinpoint the location of non-hidden, non-visible opponents, what on earth does Tremorsense do?

[Saggo]

There isn't one, just as there isn't a rule saying that characters are automatically aware of the location of non-stealthed enemies.

Please note I didn't say automatically. I said you can locate people heavily obscured or blinded. Unseen is not unheard, unfelt, or unsmelled, and it's the DM's job to arbitrate how.

In the same regard, you are not automatically unlocatable when heavily obscured. If a target wants to remain unlocated, they need to be stealthed. At which point you need to use your action to search.

Edit: Sight is of special importance mostly because it governs when you're allowed to stealth.

I'm also not denying people there opinions. I'm disagreeing with them and supporting my argument by citing the book. I have page numbers if needed.

Out of curiosity, if you believe anyone can already detect and pinpoint the location of non-hidden, non-visible opponents, what on earth does Tremorsense do?

What the Monster Manual says, you feel vibrations. If you're burrowed for instance, you can't hear, see, feel, or smell a target, you need the vibrations.

[Xetheral]

I'm also not denying people there opinions. I'm disagreeing with them and supporting my argument by citing the book. I have page numbers if needed.

Disagreeing with them is one thing. Denying the controversy, however, is denying that the opinions on the other side of the controversy matter.

What the Monster Manual says, you feel vibrations. If you're burrowed for instance, you can't hear, see, feel, or smell a target, you need the vibrations.

My question is, what is the mechanical benefit of having Tremorsense if, as you assert, you already know the location of all unseen, unhidden enemies anyway?

[RSP]

The reason I think Tremorsense negates Stealth is because you can't Stealth if you're seen. Someone else posted they thought of Tremorsense as a different set of magical eyes, and though I don't know if I agree with that analogy or imagery, it does help in this explanation. If that different set of eyes is observing you, then you can't Stealth, just like if normal eyes are viewing you.

As stated by others, there's no RAW on it, but just like sonar equals Blindsight for certain creatures, thereby granting them the ability to "see" invisible or otherwise hidden creatures using sound, I feel the intent is for Tremorsense to do the same; vibrations allow for the equivalent of "seeing" hidden characters, thereby negating any Stealth.

[RSP]

Good point by Xetheral. And just to further state it: If you need to beat a creatures Stealth roll to perceive them even with Tremorsense, then Tremorsense does nothing as every creature already has the ability to counter Stealth with a Perception roll. As nothing in the ability grants Advantage or anything, it would literally do nothing. Even a blind creature can notice a Stealthed creature; so the additional sense would be completely useless in terms of game mechanics.

[Saggo]

Disagreeing with them is one thing. Denying the controversy, however, is denying that the opinions on the other side of the controversy matter.

I'm not going to call something controversial if I have supported arguments. Present an opposing argument if you want, but claiming controversy is nebulous and does not add to the conversation.

My question is, what is the mechanical benefit of having Tremorsense if, as you assert, you already know the location of all unseen, unhidden enemies anyway?

The same benefit of the other senses, no disadvantaged perception or attack rolls against a creature under the unseen target or blinded rules. A useful sense for underground-dwelling burrowers, which you'll notice tend to be the creatures with tremorsense.

[RSP]

Saggo,
Tremorsense doesn't allow you to see creatures at all; it gives you their location. Nothing in Tremorsense negates the disadvantage applied when dealing with attacking an unseen opponent.

Unless I'm missing something the only mechanical effect of Tremorsense is auto noticing hidden creatures.

[Saggo]

Unless I'm missing something the only mechanical effect of Tremorsense is auto noticing hidden creatures.

Yeah, rereading it seems like blinding tremorsense works as advertised. You still need it to locate a creature while burrowed.

But if they can't see you through tremorsense, they can't prevent you from becoming hidden, as that's the only requirement.

[Xetheral]

I'm not going to call something controversial if I have supported arguments. Present an opposing argument if you want, but claiming controversy is nebulous and does not add to the conversation.

Are you saying the only way you'd call something controversial is if you don't think your own opinion has enough support? That's equivalent to saying that something can only be controversial if you personally aren't confident of the answer.

Pointing out the contrversy surrounding an answer you've provided to a question isn't nebulous, it's critical context. Otherwise you risk falsely implying to the person you're trying to help that there is community consensus. In my mind that's somewhere between "unhelpful" and "dishonest".

And no, I'm not going to reopen a stealth debate. In the end, what it always comes down to is that there is no rule saying creatures know the location of unhidden enemies, and there is equally no rule saying they don't. Both sides are making warranted inferences from the text, and they disagree on which inferences are superior. That's a recipie for argument without end, just as we've seen on the topic since the early days of 5e.

[JellyPooga]

Please note I didn't say automatically. I said you can locate people heavily obscured or blinded. Unseen is not unheard, unfelt, or unsmelled, and it's the DM's job to arbitrate how.

I agree very much with this.

As stated by others, there's no RAW on it, but just like sonar equals Blindsight for certain creatures, thereby granting them the ability to "see" invisible or otherwise hidden creatures using sound, I feel the intent is for Tremorsense to do the same; vibrations allow for the equivalent of "seeing" hidden characters, thereby negating any Stealth.

No, Tremorsense doesn't let you perceive your surroundings like Blindsight does, it only allows you to locate creatures. Take another look at the descriptions of Blindsight and Tremorsense; the difference is pretty emphatic.

Good point by Xetheral. And just to further state it: If you need to beat a creatures Stealth roll to perceive them even with Tremorsense, then Tremorsense does nothing as every creature already has the ability to counter Stealth with a Perception roll. As nothing in the ability grants Advantage or anything, it would literally do nothing. Even a blind creature can notice a Stealthed creature; so the additional sense would be completely useless in terms of game mechanics.

Unless I'm missing something the only mechanical effect of Tremorsense is auto noticing hidden creatures.

No no no. You're not reading Tremorsense. Where in the description does it say anything about automatically detecting hidden creatures. It says that a creature with it can detect the location of vibrations in solid material that it's in contact with. That's it. It doesn't say "this sense is completely infallible" or "no sneaking around when tremorsense abound".

Of course Stealth works against it, because Stealth is the skill of obfuscating the senses, whether that be staying out of sight, remaining quiet, moving at the right time or whatever need be done in order to avoid detection and Tremorsense is just another sense. I've already discussed how Tremorsense could be foiled in a previous post.

Going back to the issue of Tremorsense being useful; Under normal circumstances, for instance, a burrowing creature would have several feet of dirt/rock/whatever between itself and its prey. Several feet of solid material is usually enough to block sight, sound, smell and touch to the degree that a Stealth roll isn't even necessary to remain effectively "hidden". Along comes Tremorsense, which will pinpoint the location of a creature through 60ft (60ft!) of rock and suddenly the subterranean ambush predator actually makes sense. You're telling me that's not doing anything without automatically defeating Stealth?

Joe Average the Human cannot even try to be aware of someone through 60ft of rock and dirt, but a Bullette or Purple Worm can accurately locate their exact location. That's pretty extraordinary.

While on the surface, sure, Tremorsense doesn't do a great deal. Why should it? A bats Blindsense should be totally useless underwater and shouldn't work through solid rock. A humans eyesight is totally useless in total darkness (heck, it's pretty useless in partial darkness). Tremorsense is only useful when in contact with solid material; the more contact, the better. On the surface, you have very little contact, so the sense is likewise limited, but that's not where the sense excels.

[MaxWilson]

Very few things are universally agreed on.

In this case however, the rules don't prevent you from locating the square someone heavily obscured is in. Being heavily obscured only induces effectively Blindness and Blindness only induces disadvantage.

Clarification: per PHB errata, being heavily obscured induces effective blindness in creatures who are looking at you, not in yourself. They can't see you, but you can still see them if you've got line of sight.

This is controversial, and many people aren't aware of the errata, so ask your DM. But it is the rule written in new copies of the PHB, FWIW.

[Saggo]

Clarification: per PHB errata, being heavily obscured induces effective blindness in creatures who are looking at you, not in yourself. They can't see you, but you can still see them if you've got line of sight.

This is controversial, and many people aren't aware of the errata, so ask your DM. But it is the rule written in new copies of the PHB, FWIW.

Yeah, I was aware of the eratta. I could have perhaps been clearer about who is blinded to who, but it's ancillary to the point I was making. It doesn't matter who was blinded to who, you are both still able to track each other's location as blindness only induces disadvantage and failed sight checks.

[RSP]

Jelly,
A few points. Starting with this statement you made:

"Of course Stealth works against it, because Stealth is the skill of obfuscating the senses, whether that be staying out of sight, remaining quiet, moving at the right time or whatever need be done in order to avoid detection and Tremorsense is just another sense. I've already discussed how Tremorsense could be foiled in a previous post."

Stealth does not do anything in terms of "obfuscating the senses" and in fact is pretty much the opposite: stealth is avoiding the senses. If it obfuscated any senses, you could use stealth in plain sight because it would obfuscate the perceiver's vision.

Stealth flat out states you can't use it if you can be seen. Again, it's the avoidance of being noticed and does nothing to the senses of any creatures' ability to perceive the Stealthed character.

Next, you misinterpreted my point on Blindsight and Tremorsense. I was not saying Tremorsense works like Blindsight. I was saying, per the fluff of creatures with Blindsight, that it represents creatures using other senses to effectively "see" creatures. Here's part of the fluff:

"Creatures without eyes, such as grimlocks and gray oozes, typically have this special sense, as do creatures with echolocation or heightened senses, such as bats and true dragons."

My statement was, I believe the RAI for Tremoresense follows this logic and provides a creature with Tremorsense the ability to perceive creatures that fit the qualifications of the ability (basically touching the shared surface). And followed the logic and what I believe the designer's RAI to be "if you can be perceived, you can't Stealth because Stealth is the avoidance of being perceived."

Going back to my first point, Stealth doesn't obfuscate anything, it deals with avoiding notice. As you can't avoid touching a surface you are stepping on, stealth would not apply to Tremorsense. Tremorsense actually lays out in its description that it doesn't work on flying or incorporeal creatures; its stating the limitations of the ability. Notice how it doesn't include a caveat for Stealthing characters.

As for your limitations on what "average joe" can and cannot perceive, you're making them up. Any character can perceive vibrations in the ground from a creature burrowing beneath them if the DM chooses that s character's passive perception is high enough. There is no RAW of "if a creature is burrowing they cannot be detected." This is a restriction completely made up by you. If you want to play that at your table, cool, but it's not RAW at all. Here's an example of how we play it at my table:

DM: "Any one with a Passive Perception of at least 18 notices the ground below you is vibrating."

Maybe I'm missing something but I've seen zero RAW stating anything along the lines of "characters without Tremorsense are incapable of noticing vibrations such as a creature burrowing." Please post if you know of a rule stating otherwise.

[Dalebert]

I tend to agree with Saggo's interpretation myself and that's how I tend to run it at my table, i.e. barring extenuating circumstances, you can generally locate an invisible creature well enough to at least attack with disadvantage. That said, yes, it's clearly controversial based on the lengthy threads on this forum on the subject. Controversial simply means lots of people disagree. How right or wrong they are is unrelated to whether it's controversial.

Simple Definition of controversy

: argument that involves many people who strongly disagree about something : strong disagreement about something among a large group of people

Meanwhile, I don't think I've yet played under a DM that lets you auto-locate an invisible creature. However much you might agree with Saggo, I suggest you don't have any expectations that DMs are going to rule his way. From anecdotal experience, it's rare.