Monk Rework

[Kryx]

My rules are hosted at https://marklenser.com/5e

Hi,

Much like my Sorcerer Rework I decided to give the same treatment to the Monk. The Monk has struggled since release - it is the least damaging martial class by far with rogue hit points and a very one dimensional playstyle of using Stunning Strike as often as possible as it is by far the best option in terms of DPR and CC on enemies. My goal with this rework is to have monk do more DPR by default (about equivalent to a Paladin), while also expanding their combat options to be more dynamic. Paladin is a comparable class as both the monk and the paladin have several defensive options built into their class so if their DPR is equivalent it shouldn't be too much to have more feature (spellcasting).
Through this process, and especially when considering the four elements monk, I realized that the monk is a perfect fit for 5th level spellcasting. This form of spellcasting is very limited as the monk only knows about 10-15 spells total from a set list. The result doesn't make the monk feel like a spellcasting, but more like some small spellcasting on the side as Paladin, Ranger, and EK so the spellcasting shouldn't be too too obtrusive.

I created Kryx's Monk with the following changes:

• Flurry of Blows does not cost ki and is given at level 3 and Extra attack increased to 3 at level 11. see DPR of Classes
• Ki uses expanded to include Open hand push, prone, and no reactions. Step of the wind moved to air. Other uses added for each archetype.
• Ki Blast added to most archetypes. It's modelled on Radiant Sun Bolt from Way of the Sun Soul Monk (SCAG). It's equivalent to a monk using a dagger, but flavored to match each archetype.
• Ki can be used to cast spells for all archetypes. They are effectively 5th level casters.
• Ki increased at level 16+ to make monks have the same number of effective spell points as a 1/2 caster (Paladin) while assuming 1.5 short rests. see 5th level caster's effective spell points
• Monastic Tradition moved to level 2 to make spells available at level 2 as they are for the other 5th level casters.
• Added Air, Earth, Fire, and Water archetypes
• Stunning Strike moved to Way of the Long Death as the archetypes now deliver more ways to use your Ki. Stunning strike was rather strong (arguably OP) and when combined with the versatility that spells bring is too much so it had to go. Having it only in one archetype makes it more balanced compared to the benefits of another archetype.
• Wholeness of Body added at 9th level (from Open Hand).
• Moving on vertical surfaces and liquid moved to Way of Air as it matches the flavor of that archetype, not the others.
• Tongue of the Sun and Moon removed as it doesn't fit the monk flavor that I expect. Monks are the translators of the world? Very strange. Seems more like a Bard feature.

Thanks so much for taking the time to look and for any feedback provided.

[gkathellar]

Tongue of the Sun and Moon removed as it doesn't fit the monk flavor that I expect. Monks are the translators of the world? Very strange. Seems more like a Bard feature.

Have I mentioned I like your work? I like your work.

Anyway, critique. I like it, and it's a big improvement. I especially appreciate that most or all of the archetypes get Nice Things - combat abilities don't come at the cost of non-combat abilities, and vice-versa. Things like Astral Projection in Empty Body are natural additions, and greatly expand the utility and desirability of the class. All that said, I don't think it addresses some of my personal issues with later levels, as I will explain below.

One thing that strikes me immediately is a barren first level, with only passive abilities to speak of, and a second level that suddenly grants a huge number of abilities. This isn't a problem novel to your version - it afflicts the original monk, as well as a lot of 5e classes in general (take the paladin, for instance: a beatstick with a weak heal at level 1, suddenly a gish at level 2). That said, adding a whole bunch of new ki options to those gained at 2nd level means that players go from having no class-specific options to very suddenly having tons. Is it possible to spread these out a bit more and/or put one or two at first level?

At 1st level, your practice of martial arts gives you mastery of combat styles that use unarmed strikes and monk weapons, which are shortswords and any simple melee weapons that don't have the two-handed or heavy property.

As long as you're making changes, you may want to throw scimitar in on top of the shortsword for the kung-fu nerds in the crowd (like me). The only difference between it and the shortsword is that it deals slashing damage, which makes it the dao to the shortsword's jian.

Your ki can be used to power spells. Wisdom is your spellcasting ability for these spells. You use your Wisdom whenever a spell refers to your spellcasting ability. You can spend additional ki points to cast a spell as a higher level spell. Refer to the table below to determine the cost. The maximum number of ki points that you can spend on a spell equals half your monk level (round down).

To be clear, these spells behave normally for all intents and purposes, right? AoOs, Concentration, the works?

Starting at 2nd level, you can channel your ki to make a ranged spell attack in place of an unarmed strike. This attack follows the normal rules for your unarmed strike, except it has a range of 30/60 feet and the damage type is determined by your monastic tradition.

I like it! Since this is a spell attack, it uses Wisdom for attack and damage, right?

At 2nd level, you commit yourself to a monastic tradition: the Way of Air, the Way of Earth, the Way of Fire, the Way of the Long Death, the Way of Shadow, or the Way of Water,

Not a criticism, but is there any reason you didn't re-implement Sun Soul Monk for a "good guy" archetype? With Long Death and Shadows both, its absence is noticeable.

uh

hello?

I kid, of course. That said, while I don't like Tongue of the Sun and Moon (this is an understatement), is there any reason for this level to be dead? If not, maybe

At 15th level, your ki sustains you so that you suffer none of the frailty of old age, and you can't be aged magically. You can still die of old age, however. In addition, you no longer need food or water.

This ability does little or nothing, mechanically, so 15th level likewise feels kinda dead. Some form of Quivering Palm would be traditional, if not inspired. An immunity or two would have some symmetry with those granted at level 15. But, yeah, I think you can do better than Timeless Body, for whatever that's worth.

At 20th level, when you roll for initiative and have no ki points remaining, you regain 4 ki points.

I'm not a big fan of these "extend your adventuring day a tiny bit" capstones. I don't think they're interesting, and I don't think they're strong. At the very least, cutting the "no ki points remaining" line would give monks a bit of largess with their ki per fight.

Pontificating a bit on capstones: ideally, though, I think it would be something deeply monk-ish in tone, in the same way that the rogue's "I Win" button fits the rogue's cheating demeanor, or the barbarian's superhuman power and endurance fits its attitude of physical supremacy. So I guess the question to ask is what monks do? Jump around, punch guys a lot of times per turn, toss around some magical powers, endure and avoid magical powers. Not sure what that leads to in terms of a capstone - maybe some kind of nutty combo attack? Quivering palm, Because Legacy?

Dunno. In any case, the later levels are collectively a little barren.

Way of Air

Looks good. I like that Air Shield lets you turn a hit into a miss, although the language isn't 100% clear on that point.

Way of Earth

Overall solid (getit). Two things.

• Does Fissure Strike actually compete with Flurry of Blows?
• Between Earth Aspect, Stoneskin, and Empty Body, Rock Shield sort of disappears at top levels. That's not necessarily the worst thing in the world, but I have one thought: what if it extended the Resistance to magic weapons when used while Earth Aspect is up? It still wouldn't be the most optimal power, but at least it wouldn't vanish entirely.

Way of Fire

Again, good stuff. A few things.

• By RAW, does an unarmed strike count as a melee weapon attack? If not, Flaming Fists has an issue.
• Searing Arc Strike - same question as Fissure Strike.
• Does Fangs of the Fire Snake also increase the range of your ki blast by 10 feet? What about weapons used via Martial Arts?

Way of the Long Death

No problems here.

Way of Shadows

Two things:

• Shadowy Shield seems really strong, and makes Patient Defense totally irrelevant.
• Shadow Lord should probably say, "hit by your ki blast" as opposed to "hit by your shadowy wisps" for the sake of clarity.

Way of Water

Good. A little too similar to Air, but that's not really a problem. I'd explicitly throw a swim speed in somewhere - Water Walk, or maybe even earlier.

[Kryx]

Firstly, thanks for the feedback!

Spoiler: Long Reply

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Things like Astral Projection in Empty Body are natural additions, and greatly expand the utility and desirability of the class.

These were already part of the monk class. I only adjusted their ki cost to be in line with DMG standards.

One thing that strikes me immediately is a barren first level, with only passive abilities to speak of, and a second level that suddenly grants a huge number of abilities. This isn't a problem novel to your version - it afflicts the original monk, as well as a lot of 5e classes in general (take the paladin, for instance: a beatstick with a weak heal at level 1, suddenly a gish at level 2). That said, adding a whole bunch of new ki options to those gained at 2nd level means that players go from having no class-specific options to very suddenly having tons. Is it possible to spread these out a bit more and/or put one or two at first level?

As you point out this is a D&D 5e design paradigm. Levels 1 and 2 are basically quick introductions to the game which last about a session or two each. They are designed to not overwhelm players with options. Additionally they delay some of the benefits to prevent the massive multiclass culture of 3.X where many of the benefits are front-loaded. For comparison a Rogue gets Cunning Action at level 2 which has similar effect as a Monk's Ki abilities. At level 1 the Rogue's Sneak Attack is equivalent in damage to a monk's Quarterstaff and bonus action unarmed strike.
This design choice of WotC solves far more problems than it creates imo.

As long as you're making changes, you may want to throw scimitar in on top of the shortsword for the kung-fu nerds in the crowd (like me). The only difference between it and the shortsword is that it deals slashing damage, which makes it the dao to the shortsword's jian.

Seems reasonable enough. Added.

To be clear, these spells behave normally for all intents and purposes, right? AoOs, Concentration, the works?

Spells don't grant Opportunity Attacks, but yes the spells powered by ki function as normal spells.

I like it! Since this is a spell attack, it uses Wisdom for attack and damage, right?

Nope, Strength or Dexterity like a normal unarmed strike. See Radiant Sun Bolt for the Way of the Sun Soul. It's effectively a thrown weapon.

Not a criticism, but is there any reason you didn't re-implement Sun Soul Monk for a "good guy" archetype? With Long Death and Shadows both, its absence is noticeable.

Sun Soul Monk is remade into the way of fire - they're pretty similar. There are plenty of "good guy" archetypes - air is a pacifist, water leans good, earth is good/neutral. Fire could go either way.

I kid, of course. That said, while I don't like Tongue of the Sun and Moon (this is an understatement), is there any reason for this level to be dead?

Compare this class to the Paladin or Ranger. Both have dead levels at 9, 13, and 17. Only 1 dead level is rather rare for classes. Only Barbarian, Fighter, and Rogue (pure martial classes) accomplish that.

This ability does little or nothing, mechanically, so 15th level likewise feels kinda dead. Some form of Quivering Palm would be traditional, if not inspired. An immunity or two would have some symmetry with those granted at level 15. But, yeah, I think you can do better than Timeless Body, for whatever that's worth.

I did not alter this ability. That said it's a flavorful ability that grants nothing mechanically. The druid gets it too. If you compare to 3.X the monk gets it their too.

Quivering Palm does not exist because it one of the few save or die abilities that survived the 5e purge (in other words it shouldn't exist as a save or die). Beyond that the archetypes expansion to include ki -> spells already presents plenty of options.

I'm not a big fan of these "extend your adventuring day a tiny bit" capstones. I don't think they're interesting, and I don't think they're strong. At the very least, cutting the "no ki points remaining" line would give monks a bit of largess with their ki per fight.

I did not alter this ability. This capstone is on the low to mid tier in terms of capstones. It's ok, not great. I did some research into potentially replacing it, but was unable to come up with something better. If you have suggestions I'm willing to listen, however as you point out it's hard to nail down exactly what an ideal monk is.

Dunno. In any case, the later levels are collectively a little barren.

This is true across the board for classes - they slow down as they level. However I would argue that this class is not as barren as it may seem. It gets spells at 13 and 17, an archetype feature at 17. Diamond Soul at 14 which is rather amazing. Empty Body at 18 which has some nice flavor if nothing else.

Looks good. I like that Air Shield lets you turn a hit into a miss, although the language isn't 100% clear on that point.

The mechanical wording is identical to the spell shield. The only difference is the bonus granted.

Overall solid (getit). Two things.

• Does Fissure Strike actually compete with Flurry of Blows?
• Between Earth Aspect, Stoneskin, and Empty Body, Rock Shield sort of disappears at top levels. That's not necessarily the worst thing in the world, but I have one thought: what if it extended the Resistance to magic weapons when used while Earth Aspect is up? It still wouldn't be the most optimal power, but at least it wouldn't vanish entirely.

Solid, lulz.
Fissure Strike, like Searing Arc Strike, does compete with flurry of blows. Instead of 2 punches you can do some AoE damage.

Regarding the overlap in resistance: Ya, I'd like to improve something here, though it seems unlikely. Empty body is 5 ki so I don't think that really competes. Earth Aspect only lasts for 10 minutes (1-2 encounters) so there are still several other encounters in a day without the resistance. There are very few monsters with magical weapons, but it does bother me that the main defensive option of an earth monk is invalidated by them whereas the defensive options for Air and Water are not. I think I'll just remove the nonmagical part from both. It shouldn't increase the power much at all, but should prevent it from being invalidated in the rare cases.

Again, good stuff. A few things.

• By RAW, does an unarmed strike count as a melee weapon attack? If not, Flaming Fists has an issue.
• Searing Arc Strike - same question as Fissure Strike.
• Does Fangs of the Fire Snake also increase the range of your ki blast by 10 feet? What about weapons used via Martial Arts?

1. Unarmed Strike is a melee weapon attack. See http://www.sageadvice.eu/2015/06/15/...narmed-strike/
2. Searing Arc Strike - see Fissure Strike. Allowing flurry and a spell on top would be far too much burst DPR and would become the best option
3. As written it increases your reach, not range. Meaning it only works on melee attacks. This is taken from the four elements monk. Tbh I'm not so happy with Fangs of the fire snake as it is rather unnecessary now that we have the ki blast feature. the 1d4 on each attack is nice, but not sure it's enough. Maybe you have some ideas?

Two things:

• Shadowy Shield seems really strong, and makes Patient Defense totally irrelevant.
• Shadow Lord should probably say, "hit by your ki blast" as opposed to "hit by your shadowy wisps" for the sake of clarity.

Shadowy Shield is about equivalent to the Air/Water shield ability. Questionably weaker. For example if my AC is 18 and an enemy rolls a 20 I'm 100% confident that an Air/Water shield will stop the attack. However if I use Shadowy Shield they just reroll and have the same percentage chance to hit me with no guarantee of it doing anything. It's the same wording as blur. Patient Defense (Dodge) is actually a better choice as it grants adv on dex saves. The only difference is the bonus action cost. I've thought about making this mirror the shield abilities, but then the flavor is lost.

FYI added a bonus action cost on Extinguish Light. Potentially should have it on shadowy shield, but then it's just a worse Patient Defense.

Good. A little too similar to Air, but that's not really a problem. I'd explicitly throw a swim speed in somewhere - Water Walk, or maybe even earlier.

The similarities are mainly in the shield. Other than that they're pretty different. I replaced the "ascend 60 feet" with "you gain a swim speed equal to your speed."

I'd like to move this to level 6, but then Healing river is moved to 11 which is rather late. :(

Thanks again for your feedback. I'd like to improve the following:

• A better option than Fangs of the Fire Snake
• Think over Shadowy Shield - maybe there is something better to be done here.
• Potentially move Water Walk earlier for Water
• Ensure Shape the Earth can't bypass walls (invalidating the later spells) - shape the flowing river is from Four elements, though it's based on a 6th level spell (move earth)

[Kryx]

Made some changes:

• Ki blast revamped to be very similar to the wording of radiant sun bolt. It now uses Wisdom. Other than that it functions the same as before, just some different wording. Flurry of Blows updated to account for Ki Blast being a different type of action. FYI Extra attack works with Ki Blast (Crawford had a tweet about Radiant Sun Bolt).
• Rock Shield and Earth Aspect aren't bypassed by magical weapons as mentioned above.
• Rock Shield costs a bonus action.
• Shadowy Shield costs a bonus action.
• Renamed Water Walk to "Water Pressure Manipulation" and swapped it to level 6 and moved Mending river to 11.

Fangs of the Fire Snake is actually decent now that Ki Blast uses Wisdom as it allows you to extend your reach without sacrificing damage. Alternatively a Monk can focus Wisdom over Dexterity now.

[HarrisonF]

This is really good, thanks for taking the time to do this. I loved the 5ed monk at low levels, but it quickly became bad at higher levels. This rounds it out and makes it worth going to higher levels for.

A few comments and questions:

1. Does flaming fists stack with each other? If you punch someone three times, could you spend 3 ki to do 3d6?
2. Why is Ki Blast now Wisdom instead of Dex? It is odd to have two different attack attributes, Wisdom and Dex. This also differs from Radiant Sun Bolt.
3. A lot of the wording around Ki Blast and extra attack and flurry of blows is really awkward and I had to read through each area like 5 times before I could figure out how many attacks the monks got and how the abilities interacted.
4. "Water Pressure Manipulation" seems kinda a bad ability name. I don't have a new one that is better though ;)

[Foxhound438]

Well I personally don't see a problem with the standard monk- you get damage on par with rogue, and a different set of utility. Having less damage than the fighte-

*reads that air monk gets storm sphere*

Yep, looks good. I really like this rework, especially the added casting to ...



To be serious though, I don't personally feel that the monk needs such radical reform. Perhaps something more than a 1 size increase for dice every tier would be nice on the damage end, since it feels like in order to really keep up in damage you need to dip ranger or warlock.

That said, it seems pretty okay. Your reasoning for all of your choices is clear and fair, and I'd say the way you have it is fairly balanced. Also, my favorite spell.

One thing though, it kind of makes sense for monks to have translation, since aside from being fist-flurrying, fleet-footed warriors, they are practitioners of religion. It would be highly advantageous to your church if you could know anyone's language* right off, since spreading the religion brings in more donators... General consensus of pop culture monks is that they are "wise and understanding", so there's that as well.

The only thing I would seriously consider finding an alternative to is the whole "1 free spell per SR at 11th" deal, since you're also giving 3x attack. Obviously those are mutually exclusive in use, action wise, but free spells as an option is also pretty powerful. I get the intent is to incentivize the use of the spells, since otherwise it's using up your fairly shallow "universal monk resource" pool, however I feel it might be suited for a higher level feature.

[Kryx]

This is really good, thanks for taking the time to do this.

Thanks for the feedback!

Does flaming fists stack with each other? If you punch someone three times, could you spend 3 ki to do 3d6?

No, consider "on fire" a condition so it can only happen once. I guess this knowledge may have some older edition expectations (see http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemasterin...tching-on-Fire). I'll reword it a bit:
"When you hit a creature with an unarmed strike or with your ki blast, you can spend 1 ki point to cause the creature to catch fire. A creature on fire at the start of its turn takes 3 (1d6) fire damage.

A creature on fire or one that can touch the creature can use its action to douse the flames."

Is that any better? Any suggestions to improve it?

Why is Ki Blast now Wisdom instead of Dex? It is odd to have two different attack attributes, Wisdom and Dex. This also differs from Radiant Sun Bolt.

Ki blast is Wisdom for a couple of reasons:

• It is a spell attack. No other spell attack in the game (that I know of) uses Dexterity. Spell attacks (that I know of) use the spellcasting ability. The monk isn't creating daggers with his ki and then launching those, he's shooting ki which is basically magic, therefore spell attack, therefore spellcasting ability.
• If it were Dex then a Monk could effectively do full DPR from 30 feet away. Having it be the secondary stat still emphasises that Monk is a melee class that now has some ranged options, but those ranged options aren't quite as good as melee (unless the monk fully focuses on ranged by boosting Wisdom, which is possible).

A lot of the wording around Ki Blast and extra attack and flurry of blows is really awkward and I had to read through each area like 5 times before I could figure out how many attacks the monks got and how the abilities interacted.

Ki blast wording is nearly identical to Radiant Sun Bolt besides the parts that have been changed (colored in Fuschia). Those changes are mainly to the spell attack as above and to not cost ki.

Where is the confusion? What wording, specifically, can be clarified? The summary in the preface should also help with the overall view.

"Water Pressure Manipulation" seems kinda a bad ability name. I don't have a new one that is better though ;)

That name comes from the wiki that I linked. http://avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Waterbending. It seems to fit the mechanics, but if you have a better idea let me know.

Well I personally don't see a problem with the standard monk- you get damage on par with rogue, and a different set of utility.

Just to clarify - the monk gets nothing close to Rogue DPR. The monk has 65.5% of the GWM Fighter's DPR per RAW. A TWF rogue has 75% and a hand crossbow rogue has 78.5%

To be serious though, I don't personally feel that the monk needs such radical reform.
*snip*
One thing though, it kind of makes sense for monks to have translation, since aside from being fist-flurrying, fleet-footed warriors, they are practitioners of religion. It would be highly advantageous to your church if you could know anyone's language* right off, since spreading the religion brings in more donators... General consensus of pop culture monks is that they are "wise and understanding", so there's that as well.

I'm sure there are thousands of people who agree with you. This thread is for people who aren't satisfied with the monk's playstyle as I outlined in the preface. Having an incredibly low DPR martial build that primarily is there to perma-stun enemies isn't a good design imo.

If I were to apply the same logic that religion = languages then Clerics and Paladins should also speak every language. It doesn't fit the fluff imo. If you disagree then keep it - it really doesn't matter to the overall power level.

The only thing I would seriously consider finding an alternative to is the whole "1 free spell per SR at 11th" deal, since you're also giving 3x attack. Obviously those are mutually exclusive in use, action wise, but free spells as an option is also pretty powerful. I get the intent is to incentivize the use of the spells, since otherwise it's using up your fairly shallow "universal monk resource" pool, however I feel it might be suited for a higher level feature.

One specific spell cast without ki expenditure is pretty limited. Instead it could have a feature that boosts its combat or utility in other ways, but spell seems the most fitting.
DPR is quite unrelated to the utility of spells granted at 11th levle, but a monk's DPR is well within the expectation (80% of a fighter GWM RAW and 83.8% in my houserules)

[gkathellar]

One thing though, it kind of makes sense for monks to have translation, since aside from being fist-flurrying, fleet-footed warriors, they are practitioners of religion.

They are? Where does it say that?

[TripleD]

Regarding the capstone, I can see how difficult it would be since the ideal grandmaster would be one who doesn't fight except when absolutely necessary. Every martial art I've ever practised or encountered has emphasized "the best fight is the one that doesn't happen". D&D tried something like that back in 3.5 with the "Apostle of Peace" prestige class from "Book of Exhalted Deeds", but it really doesn't mesh with how D&D is actually played.

Maybe something along those lines though? "Inner Peace": you have advantage on any Wisdom or Charisma saving throw. It's sort of like a passive "Stroke of Luck" ability.

[LordVonDerp]

You want to give Paladin-level DPR to the monk? That's pretty much broken.

[Secret Wizard]

Seems like a neat class, but I don't see it as a Monk. The whole -bending thing already leaves me with a bad taste. I know some monks want more mystical abilities, but to me monks avoid outright spellcasting, instead focusing on using their body's own energy. Most of these archetypes are about harnessing the power of outside forces. I don't see the traditional monk flavor represented anywhere here.

[Kryx]

You want to give Paladin-level DPR to the monk? That's pretty much broken.

Can you please explain why a martial class doing martial level damage is broken?

Here are some numbers from my houserules:
TWF Rogue does 92.2% of a fighter GWM
S&B Fighter does 82.5% of a fighter GWM
This monk does 87.5% of a fighter GWM
Paladin with no archetype does 88.7% of a fighter GWM
OoV Paladin does 115% of a fighter GWM

Monk is a very similar role to a Rogue, but has some more defenses. The rogue could also have AT for spells.
The whole "I only stunning strike" paradigm is gone as it's poor design imo.

So, exactly what is wrong with a martial class doing martial damage?

Seems like a neat class, but I don't see it as a Monk. The whole -bending thing already leaves me with a bad taste. I know some monks want more mystical abilities, but to me monks avoid outright spellcasting, instead focusing on using their body's own energy. Most of these archetypes are about harnessing the power of outside forces. I don't see the traditional monk flavor represented anywhere here.

The Shadow monk, 4 elements monk, and the Sun Soul monk all exist within 5e. The Shadow monk in my version is nearly identical besides the few extra spells (Shadow monk has 4 spells and 1 cantrip). My firebending monk is the Sun Soul monk with the spells from four elements. Look at "Searing Sunburst" for Sun Soul - it's basically fireball. The other monks are the 4 elements spells with utility for that domain.

The monk in 5e has already involved mystical abilities and spellcasting so what you're saying is you don't want the shadow monk, the sun soul monk, or the 4 elements monk in your games. That's a fine choice to make, but that only leaves the OH monk and the long death monk (2 out of 5 archetypes).

[Antioch]

I'm very impressed with the amount of consideration that's gone into this rework both with respect to power level, mechanics, and flavor, doubly so with the DPR spreadsheet you've concocted.

Having never played a 5e Monk, I can't speak anecdotally about how the changes might affect me personally, but I'm really hoping to emulate your thought processes going forward with respect to balancing classes, reworked, homebrewed, or otherwise.

[Secret Wizard]

The Shadow monk, 4 elements monk, and the Sun Soul monk all exist within 5e. The Shadow monk in my version is nearly identical besides the few extra spells (Shadow monk has 4 spells and 1 cantrip). My firebending monk is the Sun Soul monk with the spells from four elements. Look at "Searing Sunburst" for Sun Soul - it's basically fireball. The other monks are the 4 elements spells with utility for that domain.

The monk in 5e has already involved mystical abilities and spellcasting so what you're saying is you don't want the shadow monk, the sun soul monk, or the 4 elements monk in your games. That's a fine choice to make, but that only leaves the OH monk and the long death monk (2 out of 5 archetypes).

I wasn't speaking in absolute terms, I was speaking in terms of a traditional archetype of Monk - dude who punches things and is wise. That doesn't usually come with the ability to manifest elements, shadow or death magic. It's neat that those are options, but if I were one of your players, I'd rue missing the Way of the Open Hand and it's straightforward flavor.

I think that you got too focused in representing the modern Avatar-style monk and lost sight of the Kenshiro that made the class a thing in the first place. Quivering Palm is nowhere to be seen and Stunning Fist is part of the death-themed archetype.

You are missing a supernatural-but-grounded martial artist here and that's a detriment to whatever semblance of balance you may create.

How do I make the aforementioned Kenshiro? How do I make Beatrix Kiddo with these options? How do I make Wong Fei Hung? How do I even make Po from Kung Fu Panda?

Not to mention that Ki Blast baseline seems unnecessary to me and rather violates the usual progression for the Monk that makes them powerful-but-realistic early on and outright-mystical later in the game. It's a progression that has appeared in every iteration of D&D for a reason: because it's great storytelling.

[Kryx]

I'm very impressed with the amount of consideration that's gone into this rework both with respect to power level, mechanics, and flavor, doubly so with the DPR spreadsheet you've concocted.

Having never played a 5e Monk, I can't speak anecdotally about how the changes might affect me personally, but I'm really hoping to emulate your thought processes going forward with respect to balancing classes, reworked, homebrewed, or otherwise.

Hey, thanks for the feedback. I definitely try to be as thorough as possible with homebrew and hosuerules as there are many who will try to tear it apart (justifiably so). I'm glad you appreciate the effort. :)

I was speaking in terms of a traditional archetype of Monk - dude who punches things and is wise.

The only "traditional" monk in 5e is the open hand monk. I have included open hand technique and wholeness of body into the monk class, but I left out tranquility (because it's bad), and quivering palm (because save or dies aren't fun).

A player preferring to play an open hand style of monk could take this class and ignore all the archetypes. That would result in a monk that is competitive, but not mystical.

If you have suggestions for an archetype that doesn't use spells that can be added on to the core class I'm open to ideas.


But I must express: if you're just here to inform me of how much you dislike the concept then I'd prefer you simply don't post in this thread.

[Secret Wizard]

But I must express: if you're just here to inform me of how much you dislike the concept then I'd prefer you simply don't post in this thread.

And I must express that if you are needlessly combative, it makes it very hard to wish to engage in a conversation.

[Kryx]

I literally asked for suggestions for an archetype:

If you have suggestions for an archetype that doesn't use spells that can be added on to the core class I'm open to ideas.

But it is as I feared: You simply don't like the concept and you're just here to argue. There are hundreds of homebrew options that I disagree with, but I don't go into their threads and tell them that they are flavoring the game wrong. Sure, I'll comment on balance or mechanical issues, but telling someone that you disagree with their concept is not a conversation stater. It's an argument starter and aint nobody got time for that.

[Antioch]

If you have suggestions for an archetype that doesn't use spells that can be added on to the core class I'm open to ideas.

I wouldn't be opposed to a 'Way of the Fist'-esque archetype sans any spellcasting to reflect the more traditional 'unarmed martial artist' themes tied to the Monk class.

Increasing the damage dice of unarmed strike at increments where the Monastic Tradition kicks in, overcoming more resistances and immunities, and a toolbox of ki-empowered unarmed strikes (bringing back Stunning Strike, sharing it between your Long Death archetype as well as this new one).

Pressure point attacks that deal damage in addition to penalizing the victim's stats on a failed Constitution save could be an option here. I'll admit it's not the easiest thing to come up with unique features for a subclass whose hallmark is 'real good punchin', but I can keep giving it some thought.

Throat jab to cripple spellcasters in need of verbal components, muscle-targeting strikes that paralyze or immobilize, a rebalanced Quivering Palm that still carries the same omae wa shinderu flavor from Fist of the North Star. Maybe even pressure points applied beneficially on allies for temporary stat-ups, though I think that one might be a little out of place.

[Secret Wizard]

I literally asked for suggestions for an archetype:



But it is as I feared: You simply don't like the concept and you're just here to argue. There are hundreds of homebrew options that I disagree with, but I don't go into their threads and tell them that they are flavoring the game wrong. Sure, I'll comment on balance or mechanical issues, but telling someone that you disagree with their concept is not a conversation stater. It's an argument starter and aint nobody got time for that.

It is if it makes you reconsider design tenets.

I'll come up with an archetype when I have free time.

I do think you should reconsider the 2nd level Ki Blast, replace it for 2nd level Flurry, and tie Ki Blast to each archetype if you need to. It diminishes the value of tried and true options such as thrown weapon use.

2nd level in general looks very overloaded.

[Kryx]

I wouldn't be opposed to a 'Way of the Fist'-esque archetype sans any spellcasting to reflect the more traditional 'unarmed martial artist' themes tied to the Monk class.

Nor would I, though the flavor is a bit missing

Pressure point attacks that deal damage in addition to penalizing the victim's stats on a failed Constitution save could be an option here. I'll admit it's not the easiest thing to come up with unique features for a subclass whose hallmark is 'real good punchin', but I can keep giving it some thought.

Throat jab to cripple spellcasters in need of verbal components, muscle-targeting strikes that paralyze or immobilize, a rebalanced Quivering Palm that still carries the same omae wa shinderu flavor from Fist of the North Star. Maybe even pressure points applied beneficially on allies for temporary stat-ups, though I think that one might be a little out of place.

This is an option - basically like Battle Master, but for a Monk.

[Antioch]

A little off-topic, but I was curious -- did you do the image editing for the art for your Monk/Sorcerer/Summoner banners, with respect to the white paint / burning effect on the uneven lower edges? I love the effect, and I was wondering how to pull that one off.

[Kryx]

The process is rather simple:

1. Find a nice image
2. feather edges with photoshop brushes

I forget where the brushes can be found. Perhaps https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comment...sg&sh=6957b9bb or a similar style post. I know it was on reddit somewhere.

[Antioch]

The process is rather simple:

1. Find a nice image
2. feather edges with photoshop brushes

I forget where the brushes can be found. Perhaps https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comment...sg&sh=6957b9bb or a similar style post. I know it was on reddit somewhere.

Thanks very much! Looks like I've got to give Photoshop a whirl.

[Gfrobbin84]

I like what you have done here but I miss the lack of of more martial and less mystic monk like the open hand represents I feel. So working on my own rework but going to use some of your ideas, with proper acknowledgement of course, if that is ok?

[PapaQuackers]

Hi Kryx, I think I'm within the realm of time that I may post in this thread without violating the rules. If not someone is welcome to smite me for my crimes.

I've been mulling over how to execute a non-mystical monk within your rework that is still interesting and not as linear.

I think the way to go about is using Tai Chi-esque stances. I made this as a suggestion to someone's Kensai monk archetype and it's very rough but I think the general idea would fit very well as an archetype for your class and give a less magical alternative.

(Disclaimer this is a rough idea and probably not balanced)

Way Of The Flowing Water:
Entering this stance costs 1 point of Ki and maintaining this stance costs another point of Ki each round.

The way of the flowing water exemplifies using graceful movement to dance around the battlefield, just as water must change to fit the shape that holds it, so to do your attacks change to fit the flow of the battle. While in the stance of the flowing water you gain the following effects.

- Each time you use the disengage action and move at least 15ft you may make a melee attack against a target within range once per turn.
- When taking the dodge action, each time you are attacked, if the target misses, you may move 5ft without using your reaction.
- When you make an attack action while in this stance you may choose to halve all damage you deal in order to double the amount of attacks you make.
- Each time you strike an enemy while taking the disengage action you will recover one point of ki.

Obviously that's just some rough spit balling, but I think it strikes the feeling of making me different than monk who has trained in the mystical arts and utilizes his key to shoot out energy/fire blasts.

I'd love to know what you think and if this idea would be appropriate to what you were aiming for.

[Venardhi]

I'd be curious to see what you could do with a "Way of Light" emphasizing support/healing/defense/radiant/revealing hidden stuff/dispersing darkness/etc. I've taken a few swings at it as an archetype for the current Monk and it seems like it would be much more suiting to this rework.

[Kryx]

I'd be curious to see what you could do with a "Way of Light" emphasizing support/healing/defense/radiant/revealing hidden stuff/dispersing darkness/etc. I've taken a few swings at it as an archetype for the current Monk and it seems like it would be much more suiting to this rework.

I've added the Way of Light archetype. I focused on the sun, light, and cleansing light. The Long Death monk is a more of the healing/resurrection type and the way of water has a bit of healing. This focuses on the cleansing powers of light.

Hopefully this lives up to your expectations. It's a first draft so let me know if you notice anything out of place.

[Kryx]

I'd love to know what you think and if this idea would be appropriate to what you were aiming for.

Thanks for the suggestion. I'm probably not the target audience for a fully mundane monk as I find the current setup of mostly martial with some utility a great setup. IMO it's hard to balance that utility vs other options. Possibly I could move spellcasting and Ki Blast to each archetype and then move Disorientating Strike, Knockback Kick, etc to this more martial archetype.
However that complicates a lot in formatting and is hard to find a good balance imo. Plus it'd take away from the martial aspect of the current archetypes which would be a negative imo.

So me not being the target audience makes it a bit harder to jugde. I see you've gone with the ToB style stances which could be cool. You could reference that book for more ideas. Though I'm curious to see what you'd fill out the whole archetype with - stances? What would they get at each tier? To see if this idea meets the needs of people who want a more mundane monk you'd have to ask them.

[PapaQuackers]

My apologies, I was just responding to your request for suggestions to satisfy those who were lamenting the loss of a less mystical monk.

I like your rework the way it is. I just wanted to offer a helpful alternative.

[Kryx]

Ah, sorry, I didn't mean to be dismissive. I'm just saying it's difficult and I'm probably not the best person to ask if it fits the needs of those who want less mysticism. It's as difficult as removing Spellcasting from a Paladin.