Restraining a Frenzied Beserker

[evisiron]

I am likely to play this volatile class in the near future, but would rather avoid slaughtering the other party members.

Does anyone know an effective way to keep the party safe?

[OOTS_Rules.]

In a high-level campaign, try making a type of shock collar, a Necklace of Self Lightning Bolt. It electrocutes you.

[DSCrankshaw]

In a high-level campaign, try making a type of shock collar, a Necklace of Self Lightning Bolt. It electrocutes you.

Or you could try something non-lethal, like say a Hold Person or sleep (Deep Slumber or whatever would affect your level) spell.

[OOTS_Rules.]

Will saves are improved during barbarian rage. SPells wouldn't work.

[Pink]

doesn't calm emotions stop a rage/frenzy?

[crazedloon]

grease he will auto fail his balance check every round (cant make them if my reading of the rules are correct) thus not move.

[Jack_Simth]

Resilient Sphere (Sor/Wiz 4) will do it. Reflex save, not Will. Get a deliberately low Dexterity, and you're set.

Make Everyone else Invisible (Sor/Wiz 2) or group everyone else into an Invisibility Sphere (Sor/Wiz 3). You can't see them, it's hard to attack them.

Dex Damage (Shivering Touch, from Frostburn; I forget the spell level) can lock you down pretty effectively, especially as you get a reduced AC while Raging. Just make sure the party Cleric has a Wand of Lesser Restoration handy.

[Hectonkhyres]

The problem isn't stopping the berserker-nutjob. There are a billion ways you could work that.

The problem is who is going to hold the leash. Which partymember do you actually trust enough to not horribly abuse the power they hold over you? How will you make sure the enemy doesn't hijack this power, stealing the remote control so to speak? Your berserker certainly won't be in his right mind to trigger the collar himself.

[Tor the Fallen]

Personally, I'd get my will save up as high as possible, and give the party arcanist a level one pearl of power with "use in case of emergency" written on it.

That way, he can recall that grease he cast earlier that day to put you on the floor.

[reorith]

don't worry about it until it becomes a problem. or get a wand of mislead, (whatever) image or some other illusion spell with the figment subschool.

[TheOOB]

Iron will actually isn't a bad idea for them, apart from helping you not kill your team, failed will saves rank pretty high up among causes of premature fighter death (right below being shot in the face).

[Kizara]

I fail to see how something that inflicts damage (shock collar) is going to stop/end a frenzy.

Damage provokes frenzies prematurely, not the other way around.

[Yechezkiel]

Taking a page from OotS, getting yourself Mark of Justice'd might work (if the DM would allow it to restrain you in some way, with the "invent your own curse" bit).

Going after a Mark yourself might seem out of place/character, but after a Cleric sees your frenzy, it would be a way to keep the party safe without leaving your character in the woods somewhere (cos you're a good homicidal barbarian, right?).

[TheOOB]

Is there anything in the frenzy description that says you lose your ability to purposefully fail a save vs calm emotions?

[Tor the Fallen]

Is there anything in the frenzy description that says you lose your ability to purposefully fail a save vs calm emotions?

You percieve everything as a threat; ergo, you ain't gonna fail a save for nobody.

[NEO|Phyte]

Splash a level of Warblade (or blow 2 feats) to get Iron Heart Surge. Martial manouvers can be used during a rage/frenzy. Once the bad guys are gone, Iron Heart Surge, frenzy over.

[Yechezkiel]

Splash a level of Warblade (or blow 2 feats) to get Iron Heart Surge. Martial manouvers can be used during a rage/frenzy. Once the bad guys are gone, Iron Heart Surge, frenzy over.

The frenzy wouldn't make you choose a more hostile action? I'm not doubting this, just curious as to how it's being played.

[NEO|Phyte]

You percieve everything as a threat; ergo, you ain't gonna fail a save for nobody.

Actually, nowhere does it say that you lose the ability to tell friend from foe (it specifically says you just attack those you percieve as foes to the best of your ability), its just that you're THAT ANGRY.

The frenzy wouldn't make you choose a more hostile action? I'm not doubting this, just curious as to how it's being played.

...That is actually a good point. On one hand, only percieved FOES must be attacked 'to the best of her ability', on the other hand, once you run out of foes, you start attacking people 'without regard for friendship, innocence, or health (the target's or her own)'.

Ask your DM, or see if CustServ has flipped a coin for an official answer yet.

[stainboy]

The Mark of Justice is better than anything I can think of. For maximum roleplaying XP, frenzy in town, kill a few civvies once the bad guys are dead, then get yourself a Mark of Justice out of guilt.

I imagine the idea behind the class was originally that a frenzied berserker was going to have to be very careful about using frenzy - he'd pretty much have to be alone or any a situation where he was physically unable to harm the other party members. If you hang around with a bunch of spellcasters and a monk who can move twice as fast as you that's not hard to arrange, but with a rogue or something it'd be tough. I imagine the party-killing potential is part of balancing the class, and getting around it will probably make the class overpowered. Honestly, you could take away the frenzy class feature and Frenzied Berserker would still be a strong prestige class. 3x bonus damage on 2-handed power attack is win.

[Kurald Galain]

Wouldn't that Mark simply mean you attack your friends anyway and get cursed/weakened/whatever that mark does as an additional consequence beyond having your friends dead?

[Shatteredtower]

Actually, nowhere does it say that you lose the ability to tell friend from foe...

It even suggests otherwise in the fact that you are permitted a Will save to end the frenzy prematurely. Would you try to end a frenzy you'd willingly entered if you thought there were still enemies trying to fight you?

[lord_khaine]

the will save to end frenzy could very well be your attempts to realise you have run out of enemies to vent your anger on.

and as galain said, a mark of justice would only mean you would be cursed after killing half your party.

resillient sphere is a good idea, but what if the berserker gets a turn before the wizard gets to act, its not like he isnt able to take most members out on a critt, and with his cleave abilities he might very well drop the last opponent and then cleave the party rogue.

[Shatteredtower]

the will save to end frenzy could very well be your attempts to realise you have run out of enemies to vent your anger on.

The problem with this is that you know exactly who your enemies are right up until the moment they're all gone.

Note also that the ability to inspire frenzy can be used even when there are no enemies present. Since that can only be used on your allies, you have to recognize the fact that you have allies to use it.

resillient sphere is a good idea, but what if the berserker gets a turn before the wizard gets to act...

Then perhaps the wizard either should not have been standing so close or should have refrained from using his turn to drop the last enemy standing?

Having a form of movement not available to your frenzied berserker is also worth considering.

...and with his cleave abilities he might very well drop the last opponent and then cleave the party rogue.

Easily remedied: move before you attack your last opponent, preventing the 5 ft step necessary to reach the flanking rogue. Don't forget that Bluff is a class skill for rogues, while Sense Motive is not for barbarians or frenzied berserkers.

("There's two more at the top of that cliff! Go! I'll catch up!")

A party with a frenzied berserker should also invest in concealment magic (cloak of displacement, for example) -- and avoid giving the berserker true seeing. If critical hits are a concern, it's time for everyone to invest in the fortification property for their armor (or bracers).

Oh, and hit your berserker with a tanglefoot bag, which is quite affordable by the time the party starts seeing prestige classes. At the very least, it will slow him down. (For that reason, also consider medium armor for your frenzied berserker.)

Summoned and illusory allies also merit consideration as a delaying tactic. Sharing trollform with your familiar can also slow things down, so long as your frenzied berserker's attacks don't do acid or fire damage: at the very worst, he'll knock you both out; at best, he'll need to do so more than once.

Owl's wisdom and spectral hand -- or just mass owl's wisdom -- boost the chance of making that saving throw to end the frenzy, or you could just go for a peridapt of wisdom instead. It's normally not the best buy for a barbarian, but the frenzied berserker's party might appreciate the investment whenever this engine of destruction gets shot by a well-hidden sniper or injured by some unnoticed trap. A cloak of resistance is almost certainly a must.

One more: consider the following suggestion before you go looking for a fight (that way, there's no argument about whether or not the berserker can willing fail a saving throw): "If you must attack any of your friends, I suggest you do it with your bare hands."

Then make sure he's wearing gauntlets or gloves. That should easily give you enough time to sort things out in some other fashion.

[A Gray Phantom]

Every time I see the frenzied beserker's picture I can't help but snicker:
" Grr, I am woman, hear me frenzy!"
" Where are my tampons!?"
" ROAR!! I have a vagina!!"

Apparently, if you go by the illustrations, the prestige class comes complete with bikini chain mail.

If you want to calm down the PMS avenger, just give her a Ben & Jerry's chunky monkey. That ought to take fatty down peg.

Do you think this armor makes me look fat?
No, now shut up and eat some chocolate.

[Kurald Galain]

Do you think this armor makes me look fat?

No, the fact that you're fat makes you look fat. The armor just makes you look purple.

[lord_khaine]

The problem with this is that you know exactly who your enemies are right up until the moment they're all gone.

Note also that the ability to inspire frenzy can be used even when there are no enemies present. Since that can only be used on your allies, you have to recognize the fact that you have allies to use it

well i would hardly call someone you are about to cut in 2 a ally, maybe more along priority nr 2.

Then perhaps the wizard either should not have been standing so close or should have refrained from using his turn to drop the last enemy standing?

Having a form of movement not available to your frenzied berserker is also worth considering.

well for most standart frenzied beserkers to close is the same as within a 80 foot line of charge.
and how are you going to predict with 100% accuracy when the last opponent will drop? or for that matter what if the last opponent deside to flee by teleport or dimension door, this will send the berserker at his party instead.

and as for alternative mode of movement, to be save the entire party will have to fly or something, else it just means those who can fly are save, while those who cant are screwed.

Easily remedied: move before you attack your last opponent, preventing the 5 ft step necessary to reach the flanking rogue. Don't forget that Bluff is a class skill for rogues, while Sense Motive is not for barbarians or frenzied berserkers.

this still require you to control where your opponent is, and when he will drop, and for that matter i fail to see how the bluff skill will save the rogue, or how this will help those melee members of the party who does not have this skill.

A party with a frenzied berserker should also invest in concealment magic (cloak of displacement, for example) -- and avoid giving the berserker true seeing. If critical hits are a concern, it's time for everyone to invest in the fortification property for their armor (or bracers).

to start with a cloak of displacement is by no mean cheap, and even then a 50% chance to be hit by a killing blow from one of your "friends" is to big a chance.
and after a battle, even a noncritt from the beserker is proberly enough to take most members out.

[JellyPooga]

a Portable Hole...

ooo oo, or a Ring Gate (I'd like to see him try to chase me with one leg through one of these puppies....if you have multiple sets, you can start playing Frenzied Beserker Hoopla!...sorry, I have a slight obsession with Ring Gates; it's just that they're so damn useful)

[Leon]

While not wholey the same, my Druid has the Blind Rage Flaw and the DM allows me a Will Save to not attack my companions (much to their relief i pass all the time - that and i tend to drop my glaive when i rage)

[bigbaddragon]

If everything above said fails someone from your party should get Elusive Target feat which negates power attack damage bonus and leaves the penalties to someone you dodge (if you attack your allies to the best of your ability it is high likely you will use power attack).

Otherwise I cannot but agree with Kizara on how is something that inflicts damage (shock collar) going to stop/end a frenzy.

[Person_Man]

If you take the Steadfast Determination feat from the PHBII, your Will Save is based off of your Con instead of your Wis (and you don't auto fail Fort Saves on a roll of a natural 1, which is also helpful). With sky high Con scores, a FB with this feat can easily pass the DC 20 Save needed to end Frenzy early... most of the time.

But there are two fundamental problems with the FB.

One is that you still fail your Will Save when you roll a natural 1. Considering how often you're going to have to roll to end Frenzy, its only a matter of time before you fail and kill someone. Even if they have Calm Emotions prepared.

This can be solved by making your primary weapon have the Subduing property (+1 bonus, all damage the weapon deals is subduel damage, I think its from Book of Exalted Deeds). Hilariously, your FB won't kill anyone, but he'll knock virtually everyone on the battlefield out very quickly. And then the more sane members of your party can just walk around dealing out Coup de Grace or tying people up to interrogate them.

The bigger problem with the FB is that you must make a Will Save (DC 10+CUMULATIVE damage taken that round) to avoid setting off your Frenzy. This means you will almost always burn through your Frenzy uses during your first few encounters in any game day (including trap encounters or environmental encounters where you might take damage). This will make it impossible for you to save your Frenzy uses for the hard battles, when you really need them.

Having DM'd several games with a FB PC, I found that they definitely were not worth the trouble. If you want a killer Barbarian build, there are numerous stron non-FB options out there, especially given the existence of the Complete Champion.