Female Warforged

[SilverClawShift]

I'm curious to get external input on this topic, and this is a friendly forum.

A few weeks ago (and I'm still mulling this over, yes, I'm obsessive I know) my gaming group started up a campaign about one world threatening plot or another... and I picked warforged as my race. No big deal, we play with 'exotic' content as a matter of course, we like to keep things interesting.

Here's where an (admittedly mild) issue comes up.

I have a habit of sketching portraits for character sheets when I'm not doing much else. This particular time, I decided that I didn't want to be a big clunky warforged character, and I asked my DM if I could play a warforged with a more 'female' body shape. I sketched something out, I didn't go to any obscene lengths on it, I was just a little sleeker and a hair curvier. I didn't even have a chest to speak of.

And he heartily objected.

Our DM lets us get away with absolute murder mind you, he considers it fun to come up with new ways to make us pay for being oddities. This is the same Dm who let me play a warforged DRAGON DISCIPLE for crying out loud. One of the other players even said "How do you have draconic ancestry if you were built in a forge?", and the fact that I had organic dragonic material in my physical construction was enough justification to the DM.

That's why I was so confused he'd be opposed to a feminized warforge. Here he has a chance to make me a freak among the freaks, and he's not doing it because it's not in step with warforged 'identical construction' nature.

I argued that, if I were a warforged with a female personality, trying to fit into the society of other races, I'd be eager to have my body re-shaped to be as feminine as possible. Sticking a dress on a barrel chest doesn't really work the same way as actually being sleek.

One player sided with me, but three others agreed with the DM, so I backed down on it, we like to function as a group.

But I'm still a little peeved. Is it that immpossible that a female warforged would want (and could find a means) to resemble the females of other races? Or even that a sleeker warforged might be built as an experiment in alternate body types (maybe even by a lonely forger ).

So I'd like to know what other people think about this. How do you feel about warforged who are shaped 'just a bit different'?

*******************************

As a bonus, I thought I'd mention something awesome my DM threw at us during a horror campaign.

We were fighting a way down through an inverted tower built suspended between two canyon walls (Effectively a dungeon, sure, but knowing it was literallly built as an upside down tower made it creepier :-p). It was a necromancers tower, as the campaign was undead heavy (undead heavy enough that it was becoming a global issue on a previously 'normal' world) and we were looking for answers. Turned out not be the answer we were looking for though.

Anyway.

We get to this pitch black level that was one big room full of vision obscuring pillars. A lot of scrap metal, broken stone, ruined stuff. We hear this horrible metal-on-metal stone-on-stone scraping noise echoing through the place. So we're tagging behind our rogue, who's doing the rogue-radar listen check routine, trapsing cautiously around looking for the source of this noise.

Finally, the scraping hits a louder pitch, and we see a humanoid form shambleing out from behind a pillar. It's stone and metal and wood and what looks like compacted soil in with the wood, some kind of all-too-human construct. The DM lets us in on the fact that it's a warforged.

But this warforged is rusted. Pitted. Scarred and rotting, chipped, run down. It's slow, steady, and completely unresponsive. And we realize what this thing is.

An undead warforged

Sure, it's homebrew, but I was immpressed with the way it was presented :-p.
Once we 'vanquished' it, we checked it, and the stone of its construction still had traces of names and birth/death dates, epitaphs... This warforged was built with broken tombstones and grave soil.

Ah well.

So, yeah. Female warforged, yea or nay?

[Lord_Kimboat]

I'm not sure I agree with all of the things your DM lets you get away with but I see no problem with a female personality warforged (FPW)! In some of the Ebberon material I've read it actually states that there are FPWs - Keith Baker (who created the setting) even has these FPWs in his novels!!

I do dispute though, that with the amount of FPWs that your PC would be a freak.

[Citizen Joe]

Gender itself is an alien concept to constructs. Although some take on gender roles for various reasons, they aren't actually of one gender or the other. To that end its horribly illogical to change your form to look more of a certain gender. Warforged were designed for war, not for social reasons. If you wanted a sleeker form, you should go with that on the basis of stealthiness or some other specific mission, but not for any kind of gender reason.

[Ulzgoroth]

I thought one of the major play-points of warforged was that they often took a great deal of exploratory interest in their 'humanity'. They were built as weapons, sure, but they have more personhood than could possibly be necessary for that role, and deal with this in a variety of ways.

I'd say why not? Sure, you're a bit of a freak, but that's par for the course in adventuring parties.

[horseboy]

So I'd like to know what other people think about this. How do you feel about warforged who are shaped 'just a bit different'?

"Minder! She's, she's....."
"Anatomically correct?"
Hey, if it worked for Ed Greenwood, why not?

[Aquillion]

Apparently, Keith Baker disagrees with your DM. But, then again, what does Baker know about Eberron?

I vaguely recall seeing female-build warforged in the art for one of the Eberron books, too.

And IIRC per the RAW, most warforged identify as a gender--it's only the most hardline 'construct pride' ones that don't. They were designed to be humanlike, which included giving them a gender when they were created. Many have symbols on their face that approximate human facial features, even though they don't need them; they're humanoid, they have the capacity for emotions and independant action, etc. They're supposed to be as human as possible in most ways; this would include giving male-type warforged a generally male shape, and female-type warforged a generally female one.

[Nota Biene]

I'll only say that I don't know much about Eberron, but from what I understand, it's supposed to be about creating a logical setting in which you can build and add in pretty much anything you want. If little pieces of a dragon can be included in a warforged's construction, allowing a dragon disciple warforged (and hey, why not) it hardly seems unreasonable to imagine some creator, somewhere, deciding to model a warforged on a female form, and the subsequent construct "identifying" as female.

In addition, people who are anatomically male identify as female in the real world. It seems to me that it would be even easier for a warforged constructed to resemble a male identifying as female for some reason, and without actual sexual organs, who could rationally dispute her decision?

In short, as always, rule 0 trumps all. But your DM is, in my opinion, passing up an interesting character concept for no real reason whatsoever.

[Kalirren]

Look, just take enough ranks in Craft (repair Warforged) and say "I do it." Warforged may initially have been created for war, but when they try find a place in society and try to understand how it works, they're -going- to run up against the prevalent gender roles and stereotypes, if there are any. It may not be a majority opinion for warlike warforged to end up identifying as female, but it's far, far more improbable that none do.

Seriously, I think your DM is an outlier in this respect - if only to reiterate what most people have said already, most of us fall in line with the Baker-man.

[Dausuul]

So, yeah. Female warforged, yea or nay?

Yea. I see no reason why a warforged--which is after all a free-willed, sapient being--might not decide to identify with one particular gender and try to reshape itself to match that gender. Could make for a very interesting character.

[StickMan]

A large number of warforged are sleek, and slim. I don't see any problem unless the picture screams female. If you could post the pic it would help.

[Jasdoif]

I'm surprised no one's mentioned the existence of female transformers yet.

Anyway, I don't see why a female-looking warforged would be inconceivable, or even a problem (except perhaps in some odd social encounters). As has been mentioned already, even if it's unlikely to happen, it's even less likely to never happen.

[TheThan]

Suppose your character was created specifically to look female. I can easily see a very wealthy individual spending a lot of money on a personal entourage of fem-forged bodyguards/escorts/assassins/whatever.

Background time:

Spoiler

Show

(insert name) was a highly successful wizard/ Psion and artificer. He was greatly skilled in the creation of warforged and his work was of the highest quality and in great demand. (Insert name) Had one true passion in his life, his wife (insert your character’s name here) his passion was bordering on obsession. One day (incert your character’s name here) was struck by an incurable disease. The pair spends nearly all their wealth on finding a cure. But nothing seemed to work; not even the magic of the clerics. (Insert name here), fearing the loss of his wife, decided to use the last of his money to create a warforged body for his wife’s soul to inhabit. He spent the last few years of his wife’s life dedicated to this project. He developed the magic necessary to transport someone’s conciseness into another object. When (you) finally died. He immediately conducted the experiment and created you. However the local mage’s guild/sheriff/church/etc caught wind of (insert names’) daring and decided to put an end to his unnatural act. You’re home was stormed the very night the process took place. However (insert name) finished the process before he was killed by the enraged mob. However you, in your warforged body miraculously survived and now roam the world.

Personally I wouldn’t mind at all. Sounds cool to me.

[Lemur]

I don't see any problem with it personally. Hell, the Japanese and their obsession with making female robots would be enough alone to convince me, and that's not even touching on the numerous girl robots/cyborgs that have prominent roles in their media Give you're DM a volume of Battle Angel Alita or something and see if he changes his mind (won't work if he's not susceptible to comic books).

[Dervag]

And, as the original post suggested, there's always the possibility that somewhere out there is a lonely artificer with a Pygmalion complex who wants to build warforged that identify as female.

[Ranis]

I'd go with it. It sounds cool, it sounds fun, and playing a Warforged means you get to play a construct with a personality, so why not a female personality? All D&D books are written with "her" and "she" instead of "him" and "he." Is that a hint, or just subliminal messaging to help make women more welcome into D&D?

[Tallis]

Ultimately it's up to your DM if there are female bodied warforged in his world.
That said, unless he has some specific plot point that precludes them, I can't see any reason to disallow them. If there end up being warforged in my world females will certainly be allowed.

[TheOOB]

I would disagree that a warforged could ever be female, but they could be feminine. A warforged could acquire many feminine personality traits by being around females more then males, or simply out of preference, but in the long run warforged lack gender and can never be female(or male for that matter), they can only express personality traits common among one gender.

As for body design, a female shaped warforge could exist, but it would only be due to aftermarket modification, or a bored warforged creator. Warforged are designed for efficiency as weapons, and a male chassis tends to be stronger and more stable, thus giving the warforged an edge in combat, theres no real reason to make a combat machine shaped like a female.

[Roog]

Look, just take enough ranks in Craft (repair Warforged) and say "I do it."

You don't even need to do that - just save up for a sex change.

If the DM's attitude is representative of societies attitude, then you have an interesting corespondance with the RL eqivalent.

[RTGoodman]

Well, if your DM has the ECS (which I'm guessing he does, running an Eberron game), then he should check the mini-adventure in the back of the book. I'm fairly certain (even though I don't own the book) that one of the NPCs you have to fight is a female-personality Warforged. I would think that's some pretty convincing evidence that you can be a "female" (or at least, feminine) Warforged.

Also, I'm not sure what class you're playing (is the Dragon Disciple that people have mentioned the character we're discussing?), but if you're looking for something that's sleek (and that some might consider more "feminine") check out MMIII. There's an alternative called a Warforged Scout which is Small size and has all other Warforged traits (though I think it has terrible racial ability modifiers - something like +2 Dex, -2 Str, -2 Wis, -2 Cha or something like that). So if you're looking at Rogue or something else similar, that could work.

Alternatively, if you'd really like to pursue femininity as a Warforged, you could look at the Reforged PrC (I think it's in the Player's Guide to Eberron or something like that), which is basically for Warforged who want to become human. At the last level, I think your type changes and you have to pick a gender (though I could be wrong - I haven't read any Eberron stuff in months and months).

[Skyserpent]

Might I suggest the Warforged Scout? A similar race that has a much "Sleeker" build. I mean, it may not be exactly what you're looking for, butI think that might be a bit easier to argue for a thinner less bulky looking 'forged.

[Tor the Fallen]

Or you could be the product of a mad wizard's search for a pleasurebot the perfect wife.

[horseboy]

I'd go with it. It sounds cool, it sounds fun, and playing a Warforged means you get to play a construct with a personality, so why not a female personality? All D&D books are written with "her" and "she" instead of "him" and "he." Is that a hint, or just subliminal messaging to help make women more welcome into D&D?

Gaming got hit hard back in the 90's for not being PC. They started with "disclaimers" about pronouns. Then WW came out making female pronouns default and now we're where we are.

[TheOOB]

Gaming got hit hard back in the 90's for not being PC. They started with "disclaimers" about pronouns. Then WW came out making female pronouns default and now we're where we are.

It's a PR trick to make gaming more appealing to females, it's quite easy to use non gender specific pronouns in the English language.

[Skyserpent]

Gaming got hit hard back in the 90's for not being PC. They started with "disclaimers" about pronouns. Then WW came out making female pronouns default and now we're where we are.

Didn't original D&D give like huge penalties to Strength and such for being female? Like serious ones that basically forced anyone who wanted to be effective to be male?

[Gaelbert]

On the Eberron forums, this topic is as notorious as healing stances in the Mournland and ice cream. There's a photo somewhere on WotC of a warforged who is definitely "curvy."

[horseboy]

Didn't original D&D give like huge penalties to Strength and such for being female? Like serious ones that basically forced anyone who wanted to be effective to be male?

If I remember right, there weren't penalties, but a lower cap to strength (Think it was 16). Course that was WAY back. If I remember, they weren't there in D&D, but they put them in for AD&D1.

[stainboy]

What does your DM object to - a warforged who thinks of itself as female, or a warforged who looks female?

The setting definitely includes warforged who think of themselves as female. They're in the core book. Warforged also don't have "identical construction." Even if you don't take the art in the books as canon, there are plenty of feats that involve changing a warforged's construction, there's a Craft specialization for modifying warforged, and it only makes sense that House Cannith would have improved upon the design and experimented with new designs over the course of the war.

They made warforged out of ironwood, just because some House Cannith artificer thought it would be a good idea to make warforged druids. That to me seems a lot stranger than making a warforged with a feminine profile.

All that aside, I'll admit I have a hard time wrapping my head around the concept myself. The warforged art in the Eberron books makes them look more male than female - square jaws, broad shoulders, no curves. I imagine their voices sounding deep, hollow, and metallic. So I think of pretty much all warforged as, if not male, than not specifically female.

[Rad]

Didn't original D&D give like huge penalties to Strength and such for being female? Like serious ones that basically forced anyone who wanted to be effective to be male?

OD&D had no rules-wise distinction among genders. AD&D1 had caps on ability scores for non-human races and they all had lower maximums for strength for females of all races (except the half-orc). The caps on all the other stats were identical for males and females.
Moreover Fighters with 18 STR were entitled an extra roll of a d% for "exceptional strength" (so you had a strength of, say, 18/67) giving you more bonuses. This was really one of their class features and the cap prevented any non human female from getting it, so you saw very few female fighters.

[ZeroNumerous]

The thing I have to ask is "Why would this Warforged do this?"

Warforged, even though they were designed to be as human-like as possible, are still inherently logical constructs. As such, they would realize the need for armor that is functional rather than based on appearances. I'd certainly say Warforged or Warforged Juggernauts are not going to have a feminine body because it makes no logical sense when you abandon armor for looks. The only way I could see that working would be taking the PrC from ECS that allows Warforged to lose the construct subtype.

A Warforged Scout, however, has no such armor and thus would have no logical need not to change his/her body shape to match his/her personality. Though that has been mentioned in this thread already.

[Rachel Lorelei]

A Warforged Scout, however, has no such armor and thus would have no logical need not to change his/her body shape to match his/her personality. Though that has been mentioned in this thread already.

Warforged aren't robots, they're androids. The ECS says flat out they develop gender identity.

Having a body that doesn't match your gender identity can be really unpleasant--ask any transgendered person.