EMPIRE2!-CWBG-VI-Save-The-Hufflepuffs!

[Kythia]

I could do trades for E3 when/if it happens, but currently E2 is too far along to get enough data to start up a table from scratch (not to mention that I have no idea how tables work in html). I think that the trad route system could work if I got the table up and running from the start of the game and updated it as rounds progressed; I procrastinate a lot have a lot of spare time so it shouldn't be too big of a problem (unless we revert back to E1's method. That would be awful to try and manage).

Ditto. It's incredibly easy to automate - I've seen Aed's lovely spreadsheet and I have a Python version of same. For my version it was data entry that put me off doing the work, for Aed's version it was "I don't want to do the work" that put me off. However, moos, it might be worth you talking to Aed as a lot of the work is already done.

[Zayuz]

OK, we weren't going to do this, but just to quell the speculation before it gets out of hand.

Empire3! is confirmed. I will be GMing. The game will start no sooner than the (Gregorian) New Year, and may be pushed back beyond that depending how much longer E2 runs, which is up to Zayuz.

We are in early discussions about rules. There will certainly be some changes to the current game rules but it is too early to go into any details. Some things which are points of concern under the current rules may be removed entirely for the next game, or changed beyond recognition.

Regarding trades specifically, player-tracked trades are only an option if trades have no mechanical function. It has long been apparent that if there is no central tracking of a given mechanical effect it doesn't get tracked reliably or verifiably across the whole playerbase. If trades remain in E3 in anything like their familiar form they will require central tracking. Ease of tracking will of course be borne in mind when the rules are worked out. Notwithstanding the above paragraph, I feel confident in asserting even at this early stage that we will not be reverting to the primary trade tracking system from E1. As Blade says, even with fewer regions*, it was much more laborious to track than the trade routes have been, even though the trade routes are in some ways a more complex system.

Further, without wishing to appear overly dictatorial or unkind, and while obviously we will try our best to create a game which all players, whether current, returning or new, can enjoy and appreciate, please don't get too excited about making polls, surveys or the like to try to decide what should or should not make it into the next game (or indeed this one); I can't guarantee we will even look at them, and if we do, we won't feel beholden to abide by whatever the results apparently suggest. Of course, if you have any brilliant ideas you think the next game would benefit from, please feel free to PM me or Zayuz or Quinton so that we can see them, but, again, please don't be offended if any such ideas are not implemented.

In any case, E3 is, while now on the foreseeable horizon, not starting for some time, so I suggest continuing to make the most of E2 for as long as it lasts.


*By the end of the game, there were around 200 regions in E1 by my estimate. In E2 there theoretically exist at least 550, though not all of them are in play.

Bumping this to the next page because it's important.

[Kythia]

That's my fault sorry, I must have been typing as Aed was.

[moossabi]

OK, we weren't going to do this, but just to quell the speculation before it gets out of hand.

Empire3! is confirmed. I will be GMing. The game will start no sooner than the (Gregorian) New Year, and may be pushed back beyond that depending how much longer E2 runs, which is up to Zayuz.

We are in early discussions about rules. There will certainly be some changes to the current game rules but it is too early to go into any details. Some things which are points of concern under the current rules may be removed entirely for the next game, or changed beyond recognition.

Regarding trades specifically, player-tracked trades are only an option if trades have no mechanical function. It has long been apparent that if there is no central tracking of a given mechanical effect it doesn't get tracked reliably or verifiably across the whole playerbase. If trades remain in E3 in anything like their familiar form they will require central tracking. Ease of tracking will of course be borne in mind when the rules are worked out. Notwithstanding the above paragraph, I feel confident in asserting even at this early stage that we will not be reverting to the primary trade tracking system from E1. As Blade says, even with fewer regions*, it was much more laborious to track than the trade routes have been, even though the trade routes are in some ways a more complex system.

Further, without wishing to appear overly dictatorial or unkind, and while obviously we will try our best to create a game which all players, whether current, returning or new, can enjoy and appreciate, please don't get too excited about making polls, surveys or the like to try to decide what should or should not make it into the next game (or indeed this one); I can't guarantee we will even look at them, and if we do, we won't feel beholden to abide by whatever the results apparently suggest. Of course, if you have any brilliant ideas you think the next game would benefit from, please feel free to PM me or Zayuz or Quinton so that we can see them, but, again, please don't be offended if any such ideas are not implemented.

In any case, E3 is, while now on the foreseeable horizon, not starting for some time, so I suggest continuing to make the most of E2 for as long as it lasts.


*By the end of the game, there were around 200 regions in E1 by my estimate. In E2 there theoretically exist at least 550, though not all of them are in play.

Still, if trades do remain a mechanical thing then I'd be open to managing them.

In the meantime, I should probably get on top of how tables work...

Spoiler: Practice table that I created

Show

Header!	Header!	Header!	Header!
What	Testing	Testing	123
What happens with fewer rows?	Margin fix, away!	That did not work. At all.	So how do I make this look good...?
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow

After some really really weird outcomes, I figured it out via reverse engineering some of the tables in the rules thread. So yeah, I'm going to spend tomorrow afternoon making my actions nice and pretty.

[BootStrapTommy]

As Blade says, even with fewer regions*, it was much more laborious to track than the trade routes have been, even though the trade routes are in some ways a more complex system.

Further, without wishing to appear overly dictatorial or unkind, and while obviously we will try our best to create a game which all players, whether current, returning or new, can enjoy and appreciate, please don't get too excited about making polls, surveys or the like to try to decide what should or should not make it into the next game (or indeed this one); I can't guarantee we will even look at them, and if we do, we won't feel beholden to abide by whatever the results apparently suggest. Of course, if you have any brilliant ideas you think the next game would benefit from, please feel free to PM me or Zayuz or Quinton so that we can see them, but, again, please don't be offended if any such ideas are not implemented.

In any case, E3 is, while now on the foreseeable horizon, not starting for some time, so I suggest continuing to make the most of E2 for as long as it lasts.


*By the end of the game, there were around 200 regions in E1 by my estimate. In E2 there theoretically exist at least 550, though not all of them are in play.

Thanks for the clarifications regarding region numbers. Is the thought that it will return to E1 numbers? Smaller? Bigger? Not decided?

Also, who qualifies as we? Could interested parties perhaps join that pronoun designation?

[TheDarkDM]

Tommy, could you let the coalition know where you plan to attack? The obvious choice is regions promised to the Greys in the initial planning stage of the war (listed in my demands and also including Xeroas), but if you have different ideas we could entertain them.

[woolli264]

My one request for E3 is that the stats are put in a more memorable order.

[Kythia]

The first of my demands for E3 is that the stats are put in a less memorable order and that their names are changed to seemingly random sets of alphanumeric symbols that bear no relation to the aspect they represent.

[lt_murgen]

Still, if trades do remain a mechanical thing then I'd be open to managing them.

In the meantime, I should probably get on top of how tables work...

Spoiler: Practice table that I created

Show

Header!	Header!	Header!	Header!
What	Testing	Testing	123
What happens with fewer rows?	Margin fix, away!	That did not work. At all.	So how do I make this look good...?
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow
testrow	testrow	testrow	testrow

After some really really weird outcomes, I figured it out via reverse engineering some of the tables in the rules thread. So yeah, I'm going to spend tomorrow afternoon making my actions nice and pretty.

There are easy ways to maintain tables in excel and then copy/paste them into HTML. I build tables and then use this:
=CONCATENATE("[TR][Td]",B1,"[/td][td]",C1,"[/td][td]",D1,"[/td][/tr]")
to combine them all into the relevant table-row string for HTML. THen I just copy-paste that column into the posting.

[Kythia]

There are easy ways to maintain tables in excel and then copy/paste them into HTML. I build tables and then use this:
=CONCATENATE("[TR][Td]",B1,"[/td][td]",C1,"[/td][td]",D1,"[/td][/tr]")
to combine them all into the relevant table-row string for HTML. THen I just copy-paste that column into the posting.

Errrrm.

I kinda hate to do this but you know you can just copy and paste it straight in, right?

So here's an excel table:


I selected the cells and hit CTRL+C then STARTED THE WYSIWYG EDITOR (clicked once on the A/A button in the top left), then hit CTRL+V. Then turned off the wysiwyg editor and was given the following code:

1
a

2
b

3
c

which displays like this:

1 a
2 b
3 c

I then made it a bit pretty by changing the first line to:

[TABLE="width: 144, class: head alt1 thick_outer_border_grid sortable"]

Which gives me:

1	a
2	b
3	c

EDIT: Huh. Code tags don't work as expected. Quote the message to see the code.

[BootStrapTommy]

Tommy, could you let the coalition know where you plan to attack? The obvious choice is regions promised to the Greys in the initial planning stage of the war (listed in my demands and also including Xeroas), but if you have different ideas we could entertain them.

Probably 174 or 176.

[DimpleLoamsdown]

please don't get too excited about making polls, surveys or the like to try to decide what should or should not make it into the next game

Should we create more polls?
http://www.strawpoll.me/11417411

[moossabi]

1.) Conquer region 116 (Arender) with 8 Naval Units and 4 Land units under the command of Duke Aghrim [Military]

Arendar is landlocked (and between Rando and I there's like 14+ dudes attacking already).

Did you mean 119?

[Catrus]

Empire3! is confirmed. I will be GMing. The game will start no sooner than the (Gregorian) New Year, and may be pushed back beyond that depending how much longer E2 runs, which is up to Zayuz.

We are in early discussions about rules. There will certainly be some changes to the current game rules but it is too early to go into any details. Some things which are points of concern under the current rules may be removed entirely for the next game, or changed beyond recognition.

Further, without wishing to appear overly dictatorial or unkind, and while obviously we will try our best to create a game which all players, whether current, returning or new, can enjoy and appreciate, please don't get too excited about making polls, surveys or the like to try to decide what should or should not make it into the next game (or indeed this one); I can't guarantee we will even look at them, and if we do, we won't feel beholden to abide by whatever the results apparently suggest. Of course, if you have any brilliant ideas you think the next game would benefit from, please feel free to PM me or Zayuz or Quinton so that we can see them, but, again, please don't be offended if any such ideas are not implemented.

You may want to find/appoint somebody to police people's actions, so that metagaming does not exist. As that rather quickly kills the whole spirit of the game. Since people using out of character information and motivations to dictate their in-game actions kills the fun of everybody else that the metagamer(s) interacts(-s) with. It is an RP world building game, after all. The point of the game is to build a colourful and deep world, not to win.

[Catrus]

As for actual rules changes... I have always thought that you could encourage players to interact with one another, in an attempt to negotiate trade and other things, would be that if random resource requirements were added. Leave in the player chosen requirements for stabilization, if that mechanic remains. But add in a randomly determined resource as well. That if met, which could be anything from easy to impossible, would offer a boon. Some extra bonus to the locale, like an extra resource being produced (always minor), improving the regular resource's quality by a grade, or even proffering the ability to support an extra military unit. Nothing game breaking, but something that would definitely be worth trying to meet the requirement for.

In regards to the smaller world, and less regions. Likely a good idea, especially in regards to adding depth to the world. Since that is the entire point of the game. Perhaps it could be tweaked so that players could expand their "empire" internally. So instead of going out exploring for new regions to claim or colonize, people would grow internally. Have people explore within their borders, for new places to build cities, or collect resources. Build churches/monasteries. Military bases. Et cetera. Nations would still grow or shrink depending on a player's relationship with their neighbours. But they would no longer be walking into already populated regions and declaring themselves the new Grand Poobah of a people that already has an existing leader and culture. Players could focus on expanding the lore, history, culture, and story of their people. Not make them write up a new region that existed invisibly in the "fog of war" of the map. A region that, as mentioned, was already populated.

Zayuz asked me a question awhile back. What reason did a region have to join me. A good question. A question that I do not think that was considered for the vast majority of "new" regions that came along as various empires grew. If players grew their provinces internally, rather than externally, the reason would be clear and obvious. A rich mineral vein was discovered, so a mine needed to be built. A town to house the workers was likewise required. Some wildlife was discovered, so people were needed to breed and herd them. A good location for a port was discovered. So on and so forth. Let people add depth to their empires as they expand and grow their power and influence within their borders. That they can then use to leverage possible external growth later.

It would also add some context to military conflicts. Players would be conquering towns and cities, rather than entire provinces. Holding a province the size of the ones that exist in E2 with two thousand soldiers is nigh impossible. Just look at the size of the provinces. The smallest is still larger than some real world nations. Do you think that two thousand soldiers would be enough to defend and protect an area that can house a million people?

Hell, you could even use stat actions to improve your cities. Use a Military 5 to expand the barracks/walls/towers on a town, and it can house an extra unit. Or gets a defence/attack bonus. Faith 5 to build a church or monastery to give a bonus to conversion rolls. Things like that.

[woolli264]

Notice on war M9 is attacking two regions and I will get to defences tonight.

[moossabi]

Notice on war M9 is attacking two regions and I will get to defences tonight.

Same, but without the defenses.

m9, I've got a challenge for you in my News/Rumors.

[woolli264]

HafTangible Are you marching through unexplored/uncolonized regions to get to 136 or just assuming that I am not defending P18? Because you definitely do not have permission from the CU to travel through P18.

[HalfTangible]

HafTangible Are you marching through unexplored/uncolonized regions to get to 136 or just assuming that I am not defending P18? Because you definitely do not have permission from the CU to travel through P18.

I was under the impression that you could move through the territory of someone you're at war with. You would be able to intercept my units, but I could still try and move through your territory. If I was wrong, I'll change my attack.

[moossabi]

I was under the impression that you could move through the territory of someone you're at war with. You would be able to intercept my units, but I could still try and move through your territory. If I was wrong, I'll change my attack.

How does that even make any sense?

[HalfTangible]

How does that even make any sense?

I'm still not entirely sure why you need permission to move through someone's territory at all (mechanically), to be frank. It's not like an army is gonna care about border policies.

But point taken, I'll change it.

[woolli264]

I was under the impression that you could move through the territory of someone you're at war with. You would be able to intercept my units, but I could still try and move through your territory. If I was wrong, I'll change my attack.

I was under the impression that only naval battles were affected by interception rules.

[moossabi]

BTW if anyone here has off-forum contact with Randoman could you please tell him to log back on before we can't edit our war actions?

I really want to make sure that we can avoid a recurrence of the confusion surrounding Nettofurikusu last round.

Also props to wooli for defending Arendar in place of Niran; I needed some propaganda fuel beyond just "They're evil, ooooooooooooh!", and now I get to use "Your leader gave you a dramatic speech about your salvation only to abandon you at the hands of the rabid horde of Gnolls whose king specifically challenged him to a military battle which he fled."

[woolli264]

BTW if anyone here has off-forum contact with Randoman could you please tell him to log back on before we can't edit our war actions?

I really want to make sure that we can avoid a recurrence of the confusion surrounding Nettofurikusu last round.

Also props to wooli for defending Arendar in place of Niran; I needed some propaganda fuel beyond just "They're evil, ooooooooooooh!", and now I get to use "Your leader gave you a dramatic speech about your salvation only to abandon you at the hands of the rabid horde of Gnolls whose king specifically challenged him to a military battle which he fled."

Lol you're welcome I will point out that Niran is the title not the name of m9's leaders

[moossabi]

Lol you're welcome I will point out that Niran is the title not the name of m9's leaders

Ah, my apologies. I was unaware of that.

[TheDarkDM]

Notice on war M9 is attacking two regions and I will get to defences tonight.

By my count you guys are currently deploying 81 units, FYI.

[HalfTangible]

I was under the impression that only naval battles were affected by interception rules.

Nah, you can intercept someone's land route too. There's just (usually) less reason to do so since you could just go to wherever they're attacking and get the same result (as opposed to a sea interception which stops them AND puts their land units at 1/4th effectiveness).

...

That's my understanding of it, anyway >.>

[woolli264]

By my count you guys are currently deploying 81 units, FYI.

Dang, forgot m9 was using troops, my bad.

Man, this everyone vs the CU stuff is triiiickyyy

EDIT: should be fixed now.

[TheDarkDM]

Dang, forgot m9 was using troops, my bad.

Man, this everyone vs the CU stuff is triiiickyyy

EDIT: should be fixed now.

Hey, you could accept my generous peace terms.

[HalfTangible]

Hey, you could accept my generous peace terms.

Please don't.

I haven't had an excuse until this war for the Primal to get REALLY nasty.