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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    BardGuy

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    Default Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    This is the discussion thread for the Ruslan challenges GITP chess game. All welcome to participate!

    All except Ruslan. But only for _one_ reason.

    The story so far:

    Let's roll then. You guys are white...
    Basic rules:

    - No use of computers for analysis, ever. Human-brain-based analysis only.
    - 3 days per move. Going slightly over the limit is acceptable (I, for one, will not make a fuss over it), but continuous and egregious flaunting of the time limits may lead to forfeit.
    - Team GitP may continue recruiting new members as game is ongoing.
    Moves get posted in http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showt...3#post21211703

    Best of luck rigorous yet imaginative analysis, everyone.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Right, so. Decision time already!

    The most common first moves are 1d4 and 1e4. I would be happy with either of these or 1 Nf3. If anyone wants to volunteer to lead us out through anything else then fine, but you will probably need to need to explain the opening theory!
    Last edited by Mister Tom; 2016-09-17 at 05:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum versus Ruslan thread

    Well I tend towards Pe4 here (I assume e4 is king's side), although I wouldn't be adverse to a knight move. I just like to free my king's side bishop on the first move, it makes castling less of a hassle if I decide to do it later and the bishop can be utilised in a few turns.

    However, a knight move to block off Pe5 is interesting and outside of my normal style, so I'm willing to see where it leads. So put my vote down for Pe5, but I'm reserve my second preference for Nf3.
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    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum versus Ruslan thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    Well I tend towards Pe4 here (I assume e4 is king's side)... but I'm reserve my second preference for Nf3.
    E4 is the kingside, yes. I suggest we use standard algebraic notation: for those not used to reading and writing chess moves,

    http://www.chess-poster.com/english/...n/notation.htm

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum versus Ruslan thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mister Tom View Post
    E4 is the kingside, yes. I suggest we use standard algebraic notation: for those not used to reading and writing chess moves,

    http://www.chess-poster.com/english/...n/notation.htm
    Sorry, I learnt that you use P for pawns, it seems to be standard here, I always get confused when I see no letter used for them. Ill try, but I'll likely keep using P.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum versus Ruslan thread

    Hello. I may have some troubles with notation, having just learned it from MT's link, but I'll try my best not to mess up.
    I also suggest e4 for the first move. My style of play tends to be 'strike first, strike hard', so I like to mobilise pieces early on.
    Last edited by Black Socks; 2016-09-17 at 10:04 AM.
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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    I'm happy to work with any first move, but for the sake of having a preference, I'll say d4 as I'm a tad more familiar with those openings.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Lethologica View Post
    I'm happy to work with any first move, but for the sake of having a preference, I'll say d4 as I'm a tad more familiar with those openings.
    The problem is that our king is left open and only the bishop is freed. e4 frees both the queen and black bishop while leaving the king protected.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    We're into the last day of our allotted time for this move, so barring any sudden changes, I'm going to post e4 before I go to bed tonight (so around midnight PDT, GMT-7).

    Quote Originally Posted by Anonymouswizard View Post
    The problem is that our king is left open and only the bishop is freed. e4 frees both the queen and black bishop while leaving the king protected.
    d4 is the second most common opening move and leads into a number of fine openings for White. It's hardly a tactical error.

    For these criteria in particular:
    -Leaving the king open: The e1-a5 diagonal is easy to cover. Bd2, Nd2, c3, Nc3, a3, there are many many ways for us to stifle Black's options there. If we were voting on 1. f4, then I'd be nervous because the e1-h4 diagonal is ripe for exploitation. But we aren't.
    -Freeing the queen: The queen is influencing the board by protecting d4. Our most likely next move would be 2. c4, and then the queen will have an open diagonal. However we proceed, the queen almost certainly won't move before move 5, at which point it will have ample room to maneuver anyway.

    Consider an ordinary opening like:
    1. d4 d5
    2. c4 e6
    3. Nf3 Bb4+
    4. Nc3 Nf6
    5. e3 Nc6
    6. Bd3 dxc4
    7. Bxc4 0-0
    8. 0-0 Bxc3
    9. bxc3

    Leaving Black the option of ...Bb4+ hardly hampered our opening at all.

    Indeed, in some sense d4 is a more staid and defensive move than e4, since c4-d4-e3 is an effortless structure to build practically no matter what the opponent does, while e4 invites a variety of attacks.

    Like I said, though, I'm quite willing to work with any opening move.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-09-18 at 04:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    1. e4 e5

    The deadline for the next move is 8:15 AM on Thursday the 22nd, PDT.

    Nf3 is the most common second move in this position. Some other standard moves are Nc3, Bc4, and f4. More unconventional options include b3, c3, d3, Be2, c4, and d4.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-09-19 at 12:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    If someone has familiarity with the king's gambit, then we could go for that- our five Brains should help with the sharp analysis it often leads to- but I've never played it.

    Otherwise I vote 2Nf3

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    This is the opening of most games I play, so I probably shouldn't be regarded too highly as I might miss openings.

    But my vote is for:
    2 Nf3

    It's what I'd do in real life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Hey all, happy to jump in.

    2. Nf3 works for me.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    I have some vague experience with king's gambit, but no special focus on it. Playing it would be fun, though, so I'll vote for 2. f4 to balance the vote. To me those are the 'correct' options--Nf3 for fundamental soundness and f4 for attacking chances.

    EDIT: Well, that didn't balance the vote at all, thanks to some ninjas.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-09-19 at 02:24 PM.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Yeah, Nf3. If he's good enough to challenge us to chess we probably shouldn't use King's Gambit. It's less that it gets sharp than that if someone knows how to play against it it's not a very good opening.
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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    On the one hand, he's probably not Bobby Fischer, who famously declared that the King's Gambit was busted and had a defense named after him to prove it. On the other hand, we're also probably not Bobby Fischer, who subsequently played the King's Gambit successfully himself. Bit of a wash there.

    Off-the-wall musings aside, Nf3 is pretty well carrying the day. Shall I post it tonight?

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Seems reasonable

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Another vote of support for Nf3.
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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Just asking for my own edification: what about starting with d4? We'd be putting his pawn under threat. Sure, he can take the pawn, but then his center pawns are doubled. We give up a little bit of material in exchange for a slightly better position. Oh, yes. We could also immediately recapture the pawn with the queen, advancing her to the center of the board.

    If he declines we've got that much more pressure on the center.

    ETA: I'm following the action via Chess Editor

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2016-09-19 at 06:21 PM.
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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Just asking for my own edification: what about starting with d4? We'd be putting his pawn under threat. Sure, he can take the pawn, but then his center pawns are doubled. We give up a little bit of material in exchange for a slightly better position. Oh, yes. We could also immediately recapture the pawn with the queen, advancing her to the center of the board.

    If he declines we've got that much more pressure on the center.

    ETA: I'm following the action via Chess Editor

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    (1) An extra pawn that is doubled is not a weakness in itself; it's an advantage that merely isn't as good as an extra pawn that is not doubled. So we take for granted that we're retaking with the queen, which is an equal material trade that centralizes the queen. Well and good, but...

    (2) Early queen movement creates awkward reactive play. Consider what happens after 2. d4 exd4 3. Qxd4 Nc6. Now the queen has to move elsewhere and Black gains tempo in his development; he'll have two minor pieces developed before you move your first minor piece. It's also easy to end up with your queen trapped outright if you aren't careful; take for example the disastrous response 4. Qc3??? Bb4. A typical continuation sees instead 4. Qa4, but this square is only marginally better than d1, and you've still given up tempo for it (as well as the potential for better use of your d pawn).

    (3) We aren't going to lose the opportunity to advance d4, so there's no need to rush it; we can instead take our time and prepare to make that advance when it will be more effective. The Scotch Game opening proceeds 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4; if nothing else, this prevents ...Nc6 being used to gain tempo as seen in (2). Other openings advance d4 later on, after more preparatory development and pawn moves. This is a sort-of-conventional Ruy Lopez position (best I can do from memory) where d4 was advanced around move 12-14, supported by c3 and Nf3, and with Qc2, Nd2, and Re1 guarding the e pawn. With that support, d4 is a strength rather than a vulnerability.

    (Thanks for bringing up the lichess board editor, btw; I only remembered the analysis board, which of course we can't use, but this is perfect.)
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-09-19 at 07:11 PM.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Italian, Ruy Lopez, or Scotch?
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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuthalion View Post
    Italian, Ruy Lopez, or Scotch?
    Yah. Votes Ruy Lopez

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    When in doubt, go for the stiffest drink. (Still no strong preference, but saying d4 anyway.)

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    for our third move I vote d4.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zelphas View Post
    So here I am, trapped in my laboratory, trying to create a Mechabeast that's powerful enough to take down the howling horde outside my door, but also won't join them once it realizes what I've done...twentieth time's the charm, right?
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Raziere View Post
    How about a Jovian Uplift stuck in a Case morph? it makes so little sense.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Okay, why d4 as opposed to B5? Again, for my own edification.

    Also, how exactly do you save a position in the chess editor? Mine keeps resetting every time I refresh.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Try saving the input string on the editor, maybe?

    Bb5, Bc4, and d4 are all valid options and lead to their own lines. bc4 is fairly sharp, can be very good against new players but less fun against good players. d4 typically leads to pawn exchange on d4, and potentially horse exchange as well. bb5 is probably the most common move here, setting up for the famous Ruy Lopez defence
    Last edited by Cuthalion; 2016-09-20 at 02:33 PM.
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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    re Lichess: There's a URL box below the board. Copy that URL if you want to reload the same position. You can also grab the FEN and input it after reloading the page.

    Cuth means Bb5, Bc4, and d4. Bc4 was actually known for being a fairly quiet opening--hence the name of its most common variation, Giuoco Piano. There are gambit followups like 4. b4 or 4. d4, though. Cuth is correct that all three moves are valid and have various opening lines. Scotch (d4) is probably the simplest of the three since it's easy to relieve tension on the board by exchanging on d4; Ruy Lopez (Bb5) is undoubtedly the deepest.
    Last edited by Lethologica; 2016-09-20 at 02:23 PM.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Sorry, I was in a hurry and messed up.

    I've very rarely seen people play the giuoco. Admittedly, I don't use it that much, and most people that use it against me are trying for the lolfriedliver attack.

    It's quiet if people know how to play it, certainly. Most people haven't studied it very much at all. This includes me.
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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    I suggest Bb5. We'll either get a knight or a queen out of the equation.
    Last edited by Black Socks; 2016-09-21 at 05:51 PM.
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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    Ruslan won't hand us his queen, and his queen isn't the piece behind the pin anyway. Would we want to exchange away the bishop? I would automatically play 4. Ba4 rather than 4. Bxc6, but I suppose it isn't unsound.

    That's a tie vote with two days to go. No rush.

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    Default Re: Chess- Forum team discussion thread

    No activity either, though. All right, I'm changing my vote to Bb5 so we'll have a move in. Let's take a trip to Spain.

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